I have seen the light, and it's a belt sander.

[Jerry Hossom]

Leather belts are used for stropping, whether you use a polishing compound or not. They remove almost no steel, especially when compared with abrasive belts, and are not considered sanding belts at all.

They strop.

 

[db]

Please correct me if I’m wrong. I’d think only grinding past the point of getting a burr would be wasteful and removing too much metal, and not how you grind off the metal. Meaning it doesn’t really matter how you grind, belt sander, hand stone, dirty truck tire, or whatever, but how much you grind. Heck, I think some real good sharpeners could even say getting a burr is wasteful and removing too much metal, and I’ve done that with hand stones.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I disagree that an 80 grit belt is good for sharpening.

Well I am not stating opinion but measured fact. Of course the optimal grit depends on the knife as I have noted in details in the reviews and in posts here. On blades that are sharpened at 6-8 degrees per side and are <0.015" thick 1/4" back from the edge, then you get high slicing ability and edge lifetime even with a high polish. However on most tacticals (~20 degrees, 0.035" thick) you need a really coarse edge to slice well and have decent edge retention.

I would think that sharpening on an 80 grit belt does remove far too much metal!

There is an interesting relationship between edge lifetimes and blade lifetime in this regard. If you want longer times between sharpening you will wear out the blade faster. For most people, their time is FAR more valuable than the knife, for actual working knives anyway. Most working knives are <$5, so they care about how long they can use them, not that they have to buy another one in a few years.

In general such knives are used by working people and when the knives are returned there is always visible damage because they cut used material which has inclusions from time to time. It usually takes 4-6 passes per side to remove all visible damage with a 80/100 AO belt. This is the complete process unless the steel is poor in which it requires a burr removal step.

In regards to microserration size, it depends on the edge angle, specifically it is basically proportional. So if you take something like 600 DMT at 3-5 degrees per side the microserrations will be huge compared to 20-25 degrees per side. I noted this years back, it is why the edge retention increase is so dramatic if you lower the edge angle and the grit at the same time.

Joe Talmadge was one of the first to argue on the foums that you could get a very sharp edge (specifically it would shave well) even with a very coarse hone, he used X-coarse DMT, and that it provided SUPERIOR sharpness and edge retention for slicing and was very useful on the thick edged tactical knives like the SRK.

How many thousands of knives have you sharpened, all of which were to be used by other people who would judge you by the results?

More than I could easily count, I sharpen knives for friends and family and have been doing so for many years. Not to mention the number of people who have asked me about how to sharpen and those that are now MEASURING the sharpness such obtained.

I have probably sharpened thousands of OLFA blades alone as you go through dozens of those per day depending on what you are cutting, so you can sharpen fifty of them a week, if you are working on a 3-4 man crew this is then 150-200 blades evey week. Insulation will dull them down in minutes as will things like shingles. I just flat them to the belt sander and leave them with that edge. They are way sharper and slice much better than the origionals - as judged by professional tradesmen.

My brother (currently doing such work) carries a very rough piece of sandpaper or will just use the shingles themselves (which have to be like 10-20 grit). Yes it produces a very coarse edge which again is both sharper and lasts much longer. The initial highly polished edges lose their sharpness much quicker for reasons I have explained in detail many times.

I also carry at least a DMT diafold on me and sharpen knives every time I go to someones house for dinner as I like to help prepare the meals and I don't use dull knives. This of course has the side effect of requests to sharpen all the knives.

... 40 grit Zircon belt can be felt the next day).

You need to do more labor work Thom, try running a hammer drill for 6-8 hours.

I've found 80 grit cloth backed belt, edge leading, put a surprisingly keen edge on carbon steel blades. Moving up to finer grits only made the grind prettier, not necessarily sharper.

I used 100 AO for awhile as it was the most coarse I could find. Chad E. used 80 grit AO before I did and noted it was an improvement still. There are more coarse belts which would likely be better still but I have note used them. Swaim was the first I noted to discuss this intensively, he used a lot of filed edges which are more coarse than most hones, you can even see the micro-serrations by eye on acute filed edges. He looked at both the sharpness in terms of cutting ability and the edge lifetime, this was back in pre-98 on rec.knives.

There are benefits to a higher polish, specifically if you are push cutting. Swaim also discussed this in detail but his perspective was that in general, this really isn't an issue because slicing is almost always more effective, even when cutting woods (he ran tests on dowels). THis was all from a practical perspective (his work was knife intensive) and based on measurements which were specifically and publically discussed.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Well Cliff, as I said you're special. I can't even imagine using angles like 6-8 degrees per side, or thinking a coarse 80 grit edge will last long when cutting anything harder than bologna.

It's all about physics. Picture your toothy edge created with a coarse abrasive. While polished edges are continuous and uninterupted from one end to the other, providing the maximum edge surface for cut materials to wear against, toothy edges are comprised of a series of interupted edges stacked next to each other. The longest teeth are one edge, next longest another, down to the bottom of the canyons between the teeth. Each of these smaller edges are subject to wear indivdually without the rest of the edge bearing any of the load. These longest points will wear rapidly since there is so little of the total blade edge doing the work. When that portion of the edge wears you are left with a completely dull area adjacent to the next lower set of teeth. Suddenly your cutting effiency is reduced by the portion of the edge that is no longer sharp. And so it goes until most of the teeth are worn down and cutting effiency drops to nil.

So far I have just mentioned wear, not the other and arguably more meaningful components of dulling - rolling, fracture and microchipping. Imagine what happens when those unprotected protruding teeth hit something real hard. Yep, they're going to either bend or break off, since they are very small cross-sections of steel - meaning they are weak, unlike anything on a polished edge. Whether they bend or break doesn't matter; they are no longer useful. Further, all of the valleys between those teeth are stress risers, which make the steel more prone to cracking and serious chipping. Hardened steel doesn't like sharp corners, especially interior corners; that's why they engineer them out of structural steel geometries.

It's all about physics.

It took me a little while to figure out what "OLFA" meant, but you have me on that point. I have no clue how to sharpen shingle knives. I'm sure they're a lot like concrete cutting knives.

"There is an interesting relationship between edge lifetimes and blade lifetime in this regard. If you want longer times between sharpening you will wear out the blade faster. For most people, their time is FAR more valuable than the knife, for actual working knives anyway. Most working knives are <$5, so they care about how long they can use them, not that they have to buy another one in a few years."

That paragraph may explain lots. I think it's safe to say the "working knife" of almost everyone reading this costs more than $5. Also if your personal time is worth more than your knife, you'd probably appreciate this sharpening method which allows you the benefits of both your time and your knife, but only if you do it properly. Done wrong might explain those "thousands" of knives you've sharpened. Done properly they really don't need to be done so often, and you might be able to leave that DMT stone home the next time you're invited out, and you can spend more time fixing dinner for yourself.

**Cliff, I gather you stayed up most of the night on this. Isn't that time stamp 4AM your time?!!**

 

[db]

Jerry by the times Cliff has been on the forums and times he has been posting at for the last few months, I am assuming he has gotten himself one of those 3rd shift research grants.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I can't even imagine using angles like 6-8 degrees per side, or thinking a coarse 80 grit edge will last long when cutting anything harder than bologna.

I have the experience, and the measurements and they are collaborated with published results. Those angles are just slighly less than the type I edge angles Landes recommends for example. So you can throw some snide comments his way as well. They are also the angles Johnston (knifemaker) uses (well he is a bit lower personally) who makes knives for WORKING people, butchers, farmers, tradesmen, etc. , people who need their knives to cut well. All these guys would of course also be subject to your ad hominem jibes.

These longest points will wear rapidly since there is so little of the total blade edge doing the work.

There is so much wrong with this it is hard to know where to start, but in any case I have actually USED such knives and watched the edge under magnification and it doesn't behave like that. As well, Swaim documented use of such edges over ten years ago, it was confirmed later by Talmadge, recently Possum discussed similar edges for large bowie knives (vs animals mainly). CATRA is also well aware of this I discussed it with them personally years ago and they have the data to support it as well.

Suddenly your cutting effiency is reduced by the portion of the edge that is no longer sharp. And so it goes until most of the teeth are worn down and cutting effiency drops to nil.

Again nonsense, I have the data to show that is all wrong, and it is again supported by INDEPENDENT CATRA data. What you are doing is scaling down something like an improperly jointed saw blade but you are ignoring that the mechanics don't scale at the same level. Actually learn some physics before you try to apply it. To start off with, when you use a coarse edge on cardboard, ropes, flesh, vegetation, etc., all the surface area of the teeth will make contact at the same time. On a saw blade the teeth are larger than the cut track so this doesn't happen.

Imagine what happens when those unprotected protruding teeth hit something real hard.

I have disussed the performance of very coarse edges on wood chopping blades about eight years ago and showed the difference vs highly polished. This is why I noted in the above the difference between slicing and push cutting. Even though this is the case, many people still leave machetes with very coarse edges (bastard files) due to the overall increase in performance due to the benefits for draw cutting. Of course if you do just wood chopping then that isn't the optimal edge.

It took me a little while to figure out what "OLFA" meant, but you have me on that point. I have no clue how to sharpen shingle knives.

Olfa knives are not shingle knives, they are the standard utility knife used by tradesmen, again people who use their knives for a living, every day, hours a day. What they get used to cut depends on the trade obviously.

Done properly they really don't need to be done so often...

Working people (tradesmen) use their knives on materials which dull them very quickly, both due to structure alone, or inclusions. The exception to this would be chef's knives. This again is just another example of how you extrapolate with no experience at all. Why don't you actually try cutting fibreglass insulation with one of your small utility knives and see how many cuts you can make before the knife loses all ability to do precision cutting. Now imagine doing that for 8-10 hours a day and see how many times you have to sharpen. As I said, I had the edges on the Olfa knives I sharpened compared to the initial hihgly polishded edges, as well as the highly polished edge Ben Dale prepared and the more coarse edge easily lasted longer. But I guess you think guys like Ben Dale, Ray Kirk, etc., don't know how to properly polish knives either.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Cliff, you seem to forget I have been here for several years as well and have a pretty good memory of what you've said when, including in email exhanges with me concerning my experience with and knowledge of this sharpening method.

Not everyone cuts cardboard (CATRA) nor roofing shingles nor use $5 knives for any purpose, so the relevance of much of what you've said is simply not. Drop as many names as you wish, cite as many spurious references as you like, blo as much smoke as you want, the simple fact is you are misleading many who read this, and almost everyone who has tried this method knows that is true. If you really believe I don't have a meaningful grasp of this subject, you're delusional since a great many of my knives get used in much more serious tasks than you're familiar with. I have no knowledge of how Dale or Kirk sharpen knives, but I know they have given knives to you. If you'd like I could name a several dozen knifemakers who think what you say is nonsense. We discuss the matter at almost every knife show.

Talk to me about machetes someday. I used one in the jungle for two years. I know what works.

Consider this in the context of history for a moment. In times past when all sharpening was done on stones, edges were routinely "finished" on a hard Arkansas stone. Why? It polished the steel and refined the edge. From experience it was learned that edge both cut better and lasted longer. Had it not, they wouldn't have bothered with a step that was both time consumming and costly. It's why woodworkers routinely refine edges on chisels and planer blades to 10,000 grit.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Maybe this should be discussed from another angle. I think we can safely assume that people who read this are doing so from a personal interest in sharpening their knives (the subject of this thread not withstanding some of the BS) and/or intellectual curiousity. We can assume that for whatever reason they're here, they are intelligent and have interest in and experience with knives.

I'm not seeking a religious conversion here. I'm simply describing and have described a method that has enabled a great many people to sharpen knives faster, better and easier than they ever thought possible. I have absolutely no commercial interest nor ego invested in this. My only investment here is my time and the occassional frustration when I discuss the matter on this forum, and this forum alone. If another method were demonstrably better I would not only shut my yap, I would probably use it myself. This is NOT my method by any means. It's the way most professional knifemakers sharpen knives. If there were another method shown to produce superior results, I'm sure some professional knifemaker would use it to gain a competitive advantage.

Everyone I know who has tried this method have been happy with the results. The only arguments I've heard have been about the edge leaqding or trailing issue. Most have expressed surprise at how well it does.

Given what is already written on the subject both here and elsewhere, it should be possible for any intelligent person to reach their own conclusions concerning the reasonableness of the arguments presented. We could argue people need more facts. I could argue they have sufficient facts - what they lack is experience and none here can give that to them. Everyone must gain it for themselves, using the knives they own, cutting the materials they most often cut. It costs ~$100 to do that.

It doesn't matter if you believe Cliff or me or whomever; what matters is what you carry away from here that is useful, even if that's a negative opinion of me and what I'm saying. This isn't a complex issue; it's really quite easy to understand and you don't need a degree in physics (or anything else for that matter) to grasp the concept. It's not wicthcraft; it's common sense. Decide for yourself then do your own tests.

 

[Stubai]

Round three. I am amused at this exchange and have opened another can of coke to add to my popcorn snack. Can't we just all get along? I know people who never sharpen knives, they just buy new ones. There are some who swear by belt grinders, others who favor a hard stone. Most of us here who actually use our knives just want them sharp and ready for action, and we really don't care how they were made keen. Some folk rely on a simple crock stick, others go to the mall and get a so called 'professional' to put an edge on their cutlery. What about personal choice? Can't we make up our own minds with respect to the 'correct' way to sharpen a knife? There are numerous ways to achieve a sharp edge. Part of doing so is the art of the seasoned craftsman.

I did, by the way, get my hands on a machete by Ontario that was worked over by Mr. Hossom. The 18 inch blade cuts like a laser beam on steroids.

 

[Allan Molstad]

Leather belts are used for stropping, whether you use a polishing compound or not. .

There was a link I was reading , where a guy tested a leather strop with polishing compound and one without compound.

The findings he came to were that when you use a leather strop without compound it didnt work good enough to try,

AND YET> When you add polishing compound it worked like a charm!
He found that there was a Huge difference in the way a leather strop worked.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

It's why woodworkers routinely refine edges on chisels and planer blades to 10,000 grit.

Yes because it is pure push cut, this as noted was discussed on rec.knives long before you were ever active on the forums. Lee even notes the difference in his book on sharpening as to when a more aggressive edge is preferred for both initial sharpness and edge retention. The references are solid, by WORKING people, who use their knives for a living. They are also reinforced by makers who are known for producing knives with long lasting edges with high initial cutting ability such as Dozier, Wilson and Boye, all of whom prefer coarse edges, Wilson's are really coarse, as in the coarse SiC side of a Norton stone. It also isn't just cardboard and roofing shingles, it is ANY draw cut through any media, again which was noted by Swaim over 10 years ago through many materials, ropes, cardboard, plastics, synthetic materials, foods, etc. . Even the ABS guys are aware of this and use a coarse finish on their blades as I have discussed it with individuals such as Kirk who have won cutting competitons. Unlike you I actually have the data to support what I say, it isn't opinion, it is actual fact.

-Cliff

 

[Bill DeShivs]

But Cliff, you OVERDO it!
Bill

 

[lewdog]

But Cliff, you OVERDO it!
Bill

Cliff's last name reminds me of a three year old stamping his foot.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

Unlike you I actually have the data to support what I say, it isn't opinion, it is actual fact.

Now Cliff, don't get emotional about this.

Fact is, I too have data. I just don't take as much time as you do to get it to say what I want to hear.

Unlike you however, I let other people evaluate and test what I say.

 

[lewdog]

Now Cliff, don't get emotional about this.

Fact is, I too have data. I just don't take as much time as you do to get it to say what I want to hear.

Unlike you however, I let other people evaluate and test what I say.

Replicability is essential if something is to be considered reliable. I would probably believe 100 peoples' stories and experiences about sharpening over 1 study just based on this notion.
I want to make it clear that I actually really, really enjoy Cliff's posts. I think there's a lot of experience and know-how there. I've poked a little fun just because it seems that Cliff takes himself a bit seriously.

 

[me2]

I tried sharpening into the belt last night. I couldnt get the edge to form though. I did get a large burr. How do you remove the burr using the sander? I didnt go quite as coarse. The belts were 120 grit. Also, does the brand of belt matter? I was using the Home Depot brand w/ the alligator on the inside.

 

[Jerry Hossom]

120 is too coarse. If all you're doing is resharpening a blade 320/400 grit is usually fine. If it's badly out of shape you may need 220. If you want to do serious reprofiling then maybe 120. Brand probably doesn't matter, but type of grit does. You certainly don't want sand or garnet paper (Woodworking stuff) or anything marked non-clog. You want aluminum oxide belts and I don't know if those are what Home Depot sells. I'd suggest Lee Valley http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=48040&cat=1,43072

If you sharpen with the edge trailing you can look down on the belt and see the angle you're forming with the blade. That makes it a lot easier.

You might want to read this. It tells you what I do and what some other people like or don't like about it.

http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/776367/tp/1/

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I tried sharpening into the belt last night. I couldnt get the edge to form though. I did get a large burr. How do you remove the burr using the sander?

Edge into minimizes burr formation, the physics of this is not complicated and is has been known practically for years by those who compared the two. Verhoven recently documented it with pictures but of course ignorance persists such as the same nonsense about grit and edge retention/sharpness as Hossom has stated constantly in the above in spite of actual FACTS which say otherwise. Of course when the same sources support some idea that Hossom is using to SELL his knives then that is a reliable fount of knowledge, but when it opposes him then it is just vague etc., even though he has NO actual facts to present ever.

If the steel is really prone to burr formation such as the softer stainless then you take proper precautions to not get it to form. This includes removing all weakened metal pre-shaping and going very light to lower the chance of fatigue. Just as you would do on a stone. Remove the burr again the exact same way that you would on a stone; elevate, reduce pressure and use a fresh abrasive. There is nothing different about a belt sander vs a stone in terms of the effect on the blade (aside from heat) it isn't like the knife (or the universe for that matter) can tell if the stone or the knife is moving. Both of them are actually depending on your frame of reference so the results have to be identical. Again basic (high school) physics.

-Cliff

 

[Jerry Hossom]

You're getting emotional again, Cliff.

There is nothing different about a belt sander vs a stone in terms of the effect on the blade (aside from heat) it isn't like the knife (or the universe for that matter) can tell if the stone or the knife is moving. Both of them are actually depending on your frame of reference so the results have to be identical. Again basic (high school) physics.

I thought that was astronomy...

Of course when the same sources support some idea that Hossom is using to SELL his knives then that is a reliable fount of knowledge, but when it opposes him then it is just vague etc., even though he has NO actual facts to present ever.

You're not call me a nappy headed ho are you Cliff?

It's easy enough for people to try both methods for themselves and decide which suits them best. I would however STRONGLY recommend not sharpening into a belt that is easily cut by a fine edge, like leather and possibly others, even though having the edge bite into the belt and snatch the sharpened knife out of your hands is a memorable experience.

 

[thombrogan]

Cliff,

Jerry suggests his method of sharpening for Swiss Army Knives and $20 Ontario machetes. He doesn't differentiate between Wenger and Victorinox and doesn't exclude the knives or machetes of other companies, either. On his forum at KFC (Mmm.... chicken...), he even states a good machete and Swiss Army Knife are all one really needs as far as outdoors and tactical knives go, but will make his knives for those who want something different.

In that respect, I see Mr. Hossom selling his idea and it's only price is trying it out and seeing if it works or not.

me2,

What has worked for me is stropping from tip to ricasso with the same grit I used for forming the burr. Usually 5-10 passes per side and then a bunch of alternating passes. I learned to cut into the stone from ricasso to tip (edge-leading version of what I just said), but get better results stropping.

With a belt-sander, edge-into and edge-away, a series of light, alternating passes gets me to the point where I say "good enough" and move to the next grit. The mylar and leather belts Jerry linked for you are expensive when you use them edge-into. It takes 6 leather belts per side that way.

Jerry Hossom,

With cloth-backed belts or Trizact belts and a 1" x 30" sander, edge-into isn't really more hazardous than edge-away sanding. With SiC belts sold at A&H Abrasives, Tru-Grit, and Hand American starting at 600 or 800 grit and rapidly breaking down to finer finishes, the average bear can sharpen edge-into with such belts to get a highly polished convex back-bevel or relief and finish the very edge with a ceramic hone and need never buy a leather or mylar belt.