I just don’t understand!

Interesting, thanks. I personally get good utility from 420hc from the three manufacturers I mentioned earlier, and would not hesitate to recommend any of them.

However, I have avoided the knives that contain 4Cr14mov as I was under the impression that it was so low tier I couldn't be bothered.

In my personal uses I have found 8Cr13mov so-so in Kershaw and Spyderco offerings. They seem to be much quicker to deform or go dull fast. But they sharpen back up so nice that it's forgivable.

As always, heat treatment and manufacturing variables play a huge part in final performance.

I have a Civivi in Nitro-V on the way. I am going to enjoy testing that out to see how that steel does from them.
 
MolokaiRider said:
Interesting, thanks. I personally get good utility from 420hc from the three manufacturers I mentioned earlier, and would not hesitate to recommend any of them.

However, I have avoided the knives that contain 4Cr14mov as I was under the impression that it was so low tier I couldn't be bothered.

In my personal uses I have found 8Cr13mov so-so in Kershaw and Spyderco offerings. They seem to be much quicker to deform or go dull fast. But they sharpen back up so nice that it's forgivable.

As always, heat treatment and manufacturing variables play a huge part in final performance.

I have a Civivi in Nitro-V on the way. I am going to enjoy testing that out to see how that steel does from them.
Click to expand...

That's why I took issue with Larrin's recent rankings. Based on ideal heat treatments, he rated 8Cr13Mov the same as 14C28N, Nitro-V, and LC200N for edge retention. The problem is that actual production knives get actual heat treatments.

I've had a lot of knives in 8Cr13Mov over the years and I agree with your assessment. I think the main issue is retention of a fine edge versus a working edge. A lot of the perception and discussion around 8Cr13Mov seems to focus on the fine edge. It's quick and easy to get a very sharp edge but also quick and easy to wear it down. It seems to hold a less impressive but still usable working edge for longer than lower-tier steels like 5Cr15.

I've found that average budget knives in 14C28N and 9Cr18Mov tend to hold a fine edge for much longer and then hold a working edge for at least as long. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Nitro-V once you've had a chance to explore it.
 
Chronovore said:
That's why I took issue with Larrin's recent rankings. Based on ideal heat treatments, he rated 8Cr13Mov the same as 14C28N, Nitro-V, and LC200N for edge retention. The problem is that actual production knives get actual heat treatments.

I've had a lot of knives in 8Cr13Mov over the years and I agree with your assessment. I think the main issue is retention of a fine edge versus a working edge. A lot of the perception and discussion around 8Cr13Mov seems to focus on the fine edge. It's quick and easy to get a very sharp edge but also quick and easy to wear it down. It seems to hold a less impressive but still usable working edge for longer than lower-tier steels like 5Cr15.

I've found that average budget knives in 14C28N and 9Cr18Mov tend to hold a fine edge for much longer and then hold a working edge for at least as long. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on Nitro-V once you've had a chance to explore it.
Click to expand...
Coincidently, I had to tear out some carpet from a bedroom this evening, as my youngest made a mess that I was not going to be able to clean. I used my Resilience for the task, and it did a great job cutting through the carpet. After I was done, the knife was back to scary sharp after a few swipes on a extra fine DMT.

Kinda cool actually.

I will certainly post up my impressions on my first Civivi.

Thanks for the dialogue.
 
MolokaiRider said:
Just out of curiosity, is there data that shows 420hc to have similar edge retention to 4Cr14?

I am genuinely curious, as I have had good experiences with Buck, Kershaw, and Ontario knives with 420hc. If 4Cr14 performs similarly, I might have to take a closer look at knives made from that steel.
Click to expand...
Think more like 5cr, which is an equivalent steel to that used in all those fancy German kitchen knives in millions of homes and restaurants around the world. People love to poo-poo the low end Xcr Chinese steels without realizing that their equivalents are used way more all over the place by people who actually use their knives all day every day.

That said, at this budget level it is all about HT and edge geometry.
 
craytab said:
Think more like 5cr, which is an equivalent steel to that used in all those fancy German kitchen knives in millions of homes and restaurants around the world. People love to poo-poo the low end Xcr Chinese steels without realizing that their equivalents are used way more all over the place by people who actually use their knives all day every day.

That said, at this budget level it is all about HT and edge geometry.
Click to expand...
Yup. Honestly, the 1.4116 is an old, German cutlery steel that does just fine and almost certainly sees vastly more cutlery use than the vast majority of steels.

I think enthusiasts wanting higher end steels is totally understandable, but the steel evangelists who seem to take it as a personal affront when companies use inexpensive steels that have performed well for decades in entry level knives always strike me as particularly silly.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
Yup. Honestly, the 1.4116 is an old, German cutlery steel that does just fine and almost certainly sees vastly more cutlery use than the vast majority of steels.

I think enthusiasts wanting higher end steels is totally understandable, but the steel evangelists who seem to take it as a personal affront when companies use inexpensive steels that have performed well for decades in entry level knives always strike me as particularly silly.
Click to expand...
Yup, if one really cares that much to evangelize on the subject, pay a little more and get out of the budget steel price range.

Because seriously, at this end of the steel spectrum, it really is about HT (good companies do it well) and geometry.
 
The average buyer shops the counter at Bass Pro Shop/etc; companies simply play to the lowest common denominator - members here are not the norm. Ask your average knife buyer about steel, materials, lock type etc and you will typically just get a shrug.
 
Until very, very recently, I was one of those disturbingly normal knife buyers and users.

I use knives a lot. I hunt, fish, and sometimes work in demolition, so I've always appreciated what I believed was a good knife. Normally, that would've been something in (what I now know as) 420C, or if I was willing to buy an "expensive one", 8Cr13MoV. I still have two 8-13 folders (one from Kershaw and one from Gerber). Honestly, they work fine for necessity tasks.

However, what I do take issue with is Gerber/Kershaw selling a far inferior product for the same price (or over) as a Sencut, Petrified Fish, or Ontario RAT. I don't mean just blade steel, as I've come to believe that quality is the combination of far more factors. But, for example, both of the 8-13 knives I previously mentioned are extremely sticky. Right out of the box. The Kershaw has a weird subframe lock that means I'll never be able to open it one-handed (or close it for that matter). Both pivot on plastic washers.

I bought both these knives because I wanted to, and I don't regret it. But, now I know that the quality I received for my money was far inferior to what it could've been. I now own a Kizer Sovereign and a Civivi Wyvern flipper that can each be had for about $40. Both are a massive improvement in quality over what I used to own,

Here they are:

https://imgur.com/a/mqrnumE

It is worth noting that I own several custom Damascus blades, folder and fixed, that have seen hard use through the years, despite being worth well more than the WE knives I now own...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top