I just dont like 440C!

AKADave

AKADave

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Jun 21, 2002
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There seems to be a resurgence of 440C lately in some otherwise high end production knives. That bothers me. For years ALL the cheapo knives that I have had have used 440C as their blade material. When I could afford it I bought good knives with ATS-34, D2, 154CM or even 1095 steel and others and I loved them all! I have never liked the edge holding properties of 440C and its harder to sharpen I feel. So why the cheap steel lately? Anyone else feel this way?
 
Are you sure the cheap knives were not 440A? If just left as 440, it usually means 440A. 440C is a higher carbon steel, which offers greater hardness, and therefore strength, as well as increased wear resistance. It also gives up ductility, overall toughness, and corrosion resistance.

-Cliff
 
I've found 440C to be a very good alloy. It takes a good edge easily. Plus, I've never seen it rust except in cases of total neglect/abuse.
 
Years ago I got a few balis from Alanta Cutlery, I dont know if they are still around. The blades were stamped 440c and were for the most part clubs. I have also gotten no-name import folders with 440c stamped on them. Some of the sharpening issues could be geometry but I have used some of these knives for cleaning salmon here in Alaska and they just dulled way to fast and were a booger to sharpen. ATS-34 is just in a different class I think. As for rust resistance. I have some fixed blade knives that are 1095 high carbon steel. No rust resistance to speak of but I have used one many time on the river for fish cleaning chores and just wiping it dry prevented any and all rust. I have heard good things about 440V though.

Dave
 
I have had good luck with 440C. I have no problem with it. In my experience it is relatively easy to sharpen, holds an edge slightly less than ATS-34, and is decently corrosion resistant. I will admit that I prefer a higher end steel, but I won't hesitate to buy a knife in 440C if I like the design.
 
Now, I've heard it all - 440C is a cheap steel. Somebody should have told that to Bob Engnath, and poor Barry Dawson making all those blades out of 440C. I can't seem to recall right now many 440C fixed blades - maybe the SOG Trident, no that's one of those cheapo production knives. It is true that in the last couple of years a few select companies have produced blades of 440C but it is the exception and I'm very happy to see it. 440C is a great steel and I am very pleased to have a few knives in this steel.
 
It sounds like the knives you got were the right steel, but with a bad heat treat. I have some tremendous 440C knives. No it doesn't hold an edge like 440V or D2, but I've never heard anybody say that it was hard to sharpen. 440C's ease of sharpening is one of the big reasons why I like it so much.

If you want a REAL booger to sharpen, try 440V. It holds an edge like crazy, but is ABSOLUTELY MISERABLE to put an edge back on.
 
Funny - I'll bet that most of us couldn't tell the difference between 440c, ATS-34 and BG-42 in actual use. Perhaps even 440a, AUS-6, AUS8, ATS-55, and Sandvic have some usefullness? Reshapening a knife once in a while isn't a sin. :D
 
the 440c is in my mini griptilian is great. It'smy favorite blade I own........awesome all around steel.
 
Wasnt the Buck 110 a 440C bladed knife? Those were notoriously hard to sharpen but the edge bevel had something to do with it. I can tell the difference between ATS-34 and 440C pretty easily, of course thats my experience.

440C is a cheap steel, price it at a knife makers supply shop. Gil Hibben made most of his stuff in 440C and they are darn expensive (the handmade stuff not the copies), you are paying for the design and the craftsmanship and of course a lot oh his stuff is for display. Lots and lots of companies have used 440C and lot of those knives I have seen were made in Taiwan and crudely made.

I didnt know Bob Egnath used a lot of 440C but again its been a long time since I have paid attention. Anyway there is a lot of steel out there thats better than 440C. If you like it fine, im sure it gets the job done.
 
My current personal favorite steel is VG-10. My second is 440C. I think 440C is almost an ideal alloy for pocket knives, as I think VG-10 is for fixed blades. I don't care for the ATS-34/154CM steels at all. Too brittle, too hard to sharpen, not tough enough and rust too easily. If everybody liked the same steel there would only be one. Differences of opinion are what make the world go round.
 
I have never had 154 or ATS-34 rust but every steel can rust under certain conditions. Again if 440C steel works for you then its a good steel. Variety is good.

My favorite for fixed blades is none of the grinder jocky steels. I like a forge shaped knife of 10 series carbon steel. Some of the better smiths will do edge packing and do a cryo on the blade for you. Forged blades are usually tougher and I have yet to see an alloy steel that will sharpen as easily or get as good an edge as a forged blade of 10 series steel. Some of my convex edged forged blades are sharp enough to shave with litterally and stay that way with lots of abuse to the edge like cutting through bones and wood. I do know there are some smiths that have forged some of the high speed tool steels and alloy steels but I understand it tough as heck. I have never owned one of those.
 
Any steel can be bad if not heat treated properly. If my memory serves the Bucks used 425M. There are some awesome custom makers using 440c . . . it is not "en vogue" now but is one of the best steels available aside from some of the crucible metals stuff. You may want to try a "good example" of a 440C piece before you dump it entirely. The BM Griptilian series is a great example of an excellent 440c peice. Some of the guys here have done great comparison work with some of these steels . . . you can turn alot of it up with the search function.
 
440C is not that much cheaper than some of the other very popular stainless steels. This comparison is from the June issue of blade magazine and is taken from the Admiral Steel catalog.

All bar stock is 1/4"-by-1" and is by the foot:

440C $9.40
ATS-34 $9.42
154CM $9.49
BG-42 $10.40

I have not found 440C to be anything but a very good steel. It may not be the greatest at edge holding, but it is certainly no where near the worst either. I have found that it sharpens extremely easily. 440C also takes a great polish if you like a mirror polished blade.

I think the no name imported knives you got were probably incorrectly stamped 440C as this steel is more expensive than would have been used to make such knives. This may well have been done on purpose. I do not know the manufacturer of the balisongs you got from Atlanta Cutlery so I can not comment on whether the blades were actually 440C or not. Maybe they were and had a poor heat treat and that is why they were not very good. I don't know, all I know is that I have a very different opinion of 440C than you do.

That being said, if you don't like 440C, don't buy knives that have it for a blade steel. There are so many good knives out there that use other steels that you should have no problem getting knives you will like that use the steels you prefer.
 
Thanks for posting those prices. I havent seen an Admiral Steel catalog for years and the prices you post are a bit different from what I used to see. 154 CM was much harder to impossible to get then and ATS-34 was touted as being the Japanese version. Both of which were more expensive at the time. I guess it is a vogue thing. I guess I will have to take another look at 440C, my BM42 is the older one with the Sandvik steel so I just ordered a Kershaw Ken Onion Scallion. Low price but the look like they are well made and I have heard good things about them and they are 440C I believe. I will still stick to the simpler forged carbon steels for most of my fixed blade applications. I like Moran style blades and there was a local smith here trained by him that made me a few, some years ago. Toughest darn knives I have ever seen.
 
I agree about steels like 52100, 5160, 1084, 1095, O-1 and A-2. Some of the best knives out there are made from those steels. I do own or have owned a knife made from all these steels. No complaints.

By the way, I love Bill Morans knives as well. I would do just about anything to get my hands on one. Someday.
 
O-1, forgot about that one...good stuff. Yeah a Moran is out of the question for me but he has trained some good smiths Paul Inman did mine. One is a classic Moran style Fighter/Camp knife with an 11.5 inch blade, the handle is tiger stripe maple...full tang, steel is 1095. That Avatar you have is familiar. Sabilized bighorn scales and O-1 steel cryoed? Forgot the smith but its spendy.

Dave
 
That is a Pronghorn by Ed Fowler. The steel is 52100 as this and damascus are the only steels he forges. Mine is my favorite knife and yes, it is spendy. Worth every penny though as far as I am concerned.

52100 is right now my steel of choice. Another favorite is wootz and I have a knife on order from Al Pendray in this fantastic steel.

Sorry to have taken this thread down another path from the one it started on. I just figured that the original topic had about run it's course, but I felt that I still had interest in the thoughts that AKADave was bringing forward about low chromium carbon steel and forged blades. Those are a couple of my favorite topics. I am sure that quite a few of you know that already. :)
 
Oh thats right, Fowler, again its been a long time. 52100 and I think he cryos his stuff, saw an article some years back. Very unique blade shape and tough! He was using all kinds of stabilized horn too. I love Pendrays Wootz. I would love one of his Jambiya style hunters. That Wootz has a great color to it.

Yeah my semi-troll (unintended) post has died I think. The consensus is that 440C is just fine and all my bad experiences were probably from phony or badly made blades. I still think that once you get over 4 inches your in the forged blade zone when making a good knife. I carry a little Bowie shaped 1095 forged blade with desert ironwood handle for hunting and fishing, its only got a 3 inch blade.
 
I don't really think it was trollish, and if any of my blades are marked 440C and was as bad as you've described, I think I'd be venting like you do.
I don't think the Scallion is 440C, but I've tried the edge. Amazingly sharp for whatever steel they're using.
 
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