I met with two masters tonight...

Vampire Hunter D

Vampire Hunter D

Joined
Nov 26, 1999
Messages
406
Tonight was my first class of knife fighting with Dwight McLemore, and it was awsome. Just the economy of movement, and the very essence of the technique... I just wish I could describe it to you. I've studied many different martial art styles, and I've never learned more useful information in my first lesson than I did tonight.

I also "found" a guy who had a kiln to dry my stick in. I was thinking maybe a small time wood worker who had a solar kiln or something. Man was I ever wrong. Bill Knox is a retired vetinarian(sp?), and builds custom furniture and has basically built half of his home by hand. I asked his permission and he'll let me take some pics of his shop for yous guys. Wait till you see the size of his belt grinder.

I'm just so fortunate to have moved to this area and to be able to have access to these awsome people.

I want all of with troubles to know that I did read your posts and smoke is
sent.


- D
 
If you ever get the chance,take a Bram Frank Seminar! Same thing will happen,you will be amazed.Those training knives can hurt ,can't they?Especially when they whack a knuckle! :D
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
Glad to hear it Dan...and nice to see you Jim!

.
 
Is there anyway to go into a knife fight without getting cut?

Besides shooting the opponent.

If anyone has a good answer I would like to hear it.

Thanks

Semp
 
Semp?

There are many ways to go into a knife fight without getting cut

Sadly, there are few way to BE in one without getting cut.
 
Semper,
NO,people will be at the "very least" ,cut! Don't even pay attention to "anyone" who maintains the view THEY can disarm anyone with a knife!!
I've met a few who make this statement,keep my mouth shut ,look at them & just depart! I've trained with a blade for a little while & have seen "some" handle a blade......a guy would stand 2 chance against them,"Slim & None"& Slim had already left!!
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
I envy you this opportunity! I wonder if there are any similarly trained folks in my area? How would one find out?

I know what you mean as I have seen a bunch of guys who think that knife fighting is something easily done.

Though I do believe that it is possible to effectively take a knife away from someone without getting hurt, but only if he knows absolutely nothing about how to hold and use the knife.

Norm
 
Svash,
Really!! OK try this,give someone a Magic Marker,tell them to prevent you from taking it away from him or her! EVERY mark you have on your body is a cut.You WILL be surprised.Also remember this,the guy that knows how to use one,is VERY good,he is fast & moves well,guy usually NEVER sees the blade until it's too late.Guy has to SEE it before he can even attemt to disarm.Say he see's it & makes his move,you think the knifeguy is just going to GIVE HIM HIS ARM,OR HAND ETC.?? GUY WILL AT THE VERY LEAST BE CUT BEFORE HE COMPLETES HIS "FIRST" MOVE!Trust me,it ain't Hollywood!
THE DUCK! :cool:
 
After extensive training for THE HUNTED, Tommy Lee Jones remarked that he had "learned a lot more than I wanted to about kali knife fighting," in one of the special sections on the DVD. He said,"in a knife fight between two trained fighters, one is going to the hospital, and the other is dead."

Everything I've seen and read supports his conclusion.

As a surprise weapon, hidden until use, the knife is very effective. It is especially effective if you use it to startle your assailant with your attack, and then get out of there, rapidly.

ymmv
 
Daniel, that sounds really cool!! Congrats. BTW where you living now?

Heber
 
Semper Fi said:
Is there anyway to go into a knife fight without getting cut?

Besides shooting the opponent.
Click to expand...
A gun is no assurance you won't get cut. There are dead cops to prove it.

Svashtar said:
Though I do believe that it is possible to effectively take a knife away from someone without getting hurt, but only if he knows absolutely nothing about how to hold and use the knife.
Click to expand...
Human interactions are fluid. Opportunities arise, even with skilled people. Sometimes what looks like an opportunity isn't. I try to stay away from generalizations.

jim_l_clifton said:
Svash,
Really!! OK try this,give someone a Magic Marker,tell them to prevent you from taking it away from him or her! EVERY mark you have on your body is a cut.You WILL be surprised.Also remember this,the guy that knows how to use one,is VERY good,he is fast & moves well,guy usually NEVER sees the blade until it's too late.Guy has to SEE it before he can even attemt to disarm.Say he see's it & makes his move,you think the knifeguy is just going to GIVE HIM HIS ARM,OR HAND ETC.?? GUY WILL AT THE VERY LEAST BE CUT BEFORE HE COMPLETES HIS "FIRST" MOVE!Trust me,it ain't Hollywood!
THE DUCK! :cool:
Click to expand...
I've played this game with the magic markers. It's very enlightenting.

I've never been in a knife fight, so I really don't have any experience with this topic. I've played with training knives in the dojo for a few years though. I did get a chance to study a little with James Keating at the Riddle of Steel last year. One thing that struck me was the deceptive nature of Mr. Keating's technique, and also the technique of other experienced players. Something comes in on one line, and moves to another. I had to wonder. 80 people out of 100 would not even see it coming on the first line. Maybe 95 people out of 100 won't perceive and avoid it as it changes lines. 5 percent will probably get lucky or be even sneakier. There is an element of luck involved, as some of the actions are (almost) too fast to perceive and react to. As in fencing. There is an element of guesswork in choosing the strategy, and there's always the possibility of guessing wrong. Good players perceive very well, but they are still vulnerable to bad luck or a bad guess.

Mr. Keating did have some comments on the khukuri. He did not particularly like that kind of knife for his style. He noted the absence of a guard made it a primarily offensive weapon, and he is very concerned about defense, not getting cut, and taking opportunities as they arise. I told him Kami Sherpa's remarks about being willing to "trade up," or take some damage in order to inflict greater damage. Mr. Keating thought that was consistent with the style of the modern khukuri. He closed his remarks to the group on the khukuri with the comment, "You have to watch out for those guys though, they'll kill you dead."

I think a knife style like the khukuri lends itself to presents a great challenge to a stylist like Mr. Keating. There are few who could avoid getting cut in a knife duel with an advanced stylist like him. Most who chose to play his game would be slowly whittled away. I think a stylist like Mr. Keating would be more challenged by a khukuri weilder who knew he was going to take some damage, but was willing to take it to land a lethal blow.

One early morning out in the Hell's Canyon all the people were assembling for the first session of the day. Two young buck deer came into our area, and treated everyone to a sparing match. Everyone watched, quietly and respectfully, while the two natural masters gave their lesson. The ROS was a neat experience and I recommend it to those of your interested in this subject. I see the entrance requirements have changed a bit and you now have to take some orientation classes prior to attending a ROS. That was probably because of all the dumb questions I asked!

IM001378c.JPG
 
jim_l_clifton said:
Svash,
Really!! OK try this,give someone a Magic Marker,tell them to prevent you from taking it away from him or her! EVERY mark you have on your body is a cut.You WILL be surprised.Also remember this,the guy that knows how to use one,is VERY good,he is fast & moves well,guy usually NEVER sees the blade until it's too late.Guy has to SEE it before he can even attemt to disarm.Say he see's it & makes his move,you think the knifeguy is just going to GIVE HIM HIS ARM,OR HAND ETC.?? GUY WILL AT THE VERY LEAST BE CUT BEFORE HE COMPLETES HIS "FIRST" MOVE!Trust me,it ain't Hollywood!
THE DUCK! :cool:
Click to expand...


Really. There are established techniques for successfully disarming a man using a knife by holding it over his head and stabbing downwards at you. Admittedly it is far easier to counter a knife used this way, and seems almost impossible if the attacker comes straight in. I practiced this with my father when I was 12-15 and while taking Kenpo classes for a few years at the same time. That's why I said if the guy knows nothing and holds the knife this way. You were speaking in absolutes, which is like dangling a Royal Kothimoda in front on an HI shark, and is why I said what I did.

I have no doubt at all that what you say is for the most part true, but approach an expert in defensive come-along holds holding the knife ineffectively or stupidly and he will take it away from you and shove it in an uncomfortable place.

Norm
 
cliff355 said:
Howard:

What kind of shape do you have to be in to attend a thing like that? I checked out their website and the trainees appear to be pretty stalwart dudes.
Click to expand...
No special physical requirements I can remember. One of the older attendees walked with a cane and had some physical limitations.
 
Hello Chaps,

Regarding the not getting cut in a knife attack, it is possible, I know of people that have done just that, both at street level and in combat. I also know of people that have been quite badly hurt as well, each situation is different and no absolutes one way or another.

I am sure Mr. Keating is very skilled in form of knife fighting he studies and teaches, however genuine kukri fighting does have guards, blocks, parrys or whatever you want to call them, that give you the ability to counter very effectively, without getting cut yourself. It is a mistake to think that kukri are purely offensive in technique.

Cheers Simon
 
Semper Fi said:
Is there anyway to go into a knife fight without getting cut?Besides shooting the opponent.
If anyone has a good answer I would like to hear it.
Semp
Click to expand...

Seems there was this U.S. Marshal who arrived in a small W.Va. coal town, and found two local law enforcement officers standing outside a pool hall. They advised him that they had an arrest warrant for a crazy man, and they "didn't want to hurt him" since he was plainly insane. Where is he? Inside, with a knife, was the reply. :D The U.S. Marshal called in to the defendant, and told him to come out. The "crazy man" answered that he had no intention of coming out, and that he would "cut up" anyone who came in after him. The Marshal entered the pool hall, scooping up an arm load of balls, and began chucking them at the defendant. The third or forth ball connected with the defendant's head, and the Marshal reappeared, towing the defendant behind him by an ankle.

That U.S.Marshal was my great uncle Vause Fox Alkire, and the time was the 1880's. ;)
 
If I may, I'd like to suggest something about this "can you be in a knife fight and not get cut?" question.

From a Bujinkan perspective, not getting cut is the whole reason for fighting in the first place. We dont fixate upon the idea of "winning" nor "killing" necessarily, but "surviving."
Do whatever you have to do to protect yourself and to survive.
I didnt say "do whatever you have to do to win" I said "Do whatever you have to do to survive."

That means keep far away from angry,(probably drunk) knife wielding a$$holes. Try not to think of it as "being in a knife fight", but rather, "surviving an attack by a guy with a knife by using another knife and anything else I could get my hands on."

I know this is all semantics, but it does make a difference in a bad situation.
Unlimited thinking is the key.

The sheriff story above is an excellent example. He used shuriken, no less!
A+
 
jurassicnarc44 said:
Seems there was this U.S. Marshal who arrived in a small W.Va. coal town, and found two local law enforcement officers standing outside a pool hall. They advised him that they had an arrest warrant for a crazy man, and they "didn't want to hurt him" since he was plainly insane. Where is he? Inside, with a knife, was the reply. :D The U.S. Marshal called in to the defendant, and told him to come out. The "crazy man" answered that he had no intention of coming out, and that he would "cut up" anyone who came in after him. The Marshal entered the pool hall, scooping up an arm load of balls, and began chucking them at the defendant. The third or forth ball connected with the defendant's head, and the Marshal reappeared, towing the defendant behind him by an ankle.

That U.S.Marshal was my great uncle Vause Fox Alkire, and the time was the 1880's. ;)
Click to expand...

One hell of a creative solution! (And a great LE name to boot.) And back then I imagine they were big HEAVY elephant ivory billiard balls. Ouch...

N.
 
Geez. I don't really know how to respond to this. There are a lot of things that I would like to say, but I won't. I don't want to step on any toes. I'll just leave it at a personal philosophy of mine: If you see it coming, it should never hit you and if you don't you're already dead. That doesn't mean don't take him with you, but....well you get the idea.

DIJ is exactly right. You're not trying to square off like gentlemen, stab, punch, bite, and club the other bastard first and get away.

Semp,

I've always firmly believed that steel and wood CAN be faster than lead, there are just so many variables. I also think that firearm use should just barely scratch the surface of a policeman's or soldier's arsenal.

Cliff,

I'm extremly fat right now. In the transition from Utah to Virginia I gained about 40lbs in a month. I did fine in my first lesson and the more you go the faster the training gets and the more in shape you become.

Jim,

I haven't been jabbed hard yet, but I know it's coming.

The Marshal story was cool. I love hearing old tales like that one.

Heber,

I left Utah April 23 to move to VA. It's nice here, but I miss the mountians.

- D
 
Consider that in the "classic" rapier duel, a mutal kill was not all that uncommon. Not necessarily both guys dropping dead immediately, but the victor wandering off to die minutes, hours or days later of blood loss or infection. This is not to imply that both blows landed at the same time (although that can happen): when the loser takes his hit, there's no guarantee that he'll immediately go down (or even that he knows that he's been struck) and the winner's weapon may not be in a good position to defend against a retaliatory blow. A dead man can still kill me if he doesn't know that he's dead.

"Yeah, you got me, but you're coming with me."

What is my definition of victory, and what am I prepared to do to achieve it? It would depend upon the circumstances.

Great thread, BTW. I sincerely hope to attend the Riddle one of these years.
 
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