I need advice, you'll get a laugh

J

J. MacDonald

Joined
Jun 8, 2000
Messages
3,140
Ok, So I'm proving to myself that I really am a newbie. I had a plan. I went to Harbor Freight and bought a shiny new $99.00 bench top bandsaw for profiling the blades I intend to make, and while there got stylish $59.00 combo 1"x30" belt sander/ 5" disc sander (let's consider tis the first mistake). With a few files, stones and a cheap hacksaw I already owned, an old Craftsman Drill press and a bench mounted 4" vise and a 6" bench grinder (and the obligatory Dremel of course), I figured that I was set to make a modest start in knifemaking. I was hoping to financially ease into this hobby. I thought I'd buy a couple cheap machines and build a couple knives to see if I have any talent before investing big money in specialized industrial grade stuff.

I then went out to Tru Grit and met with John & Linda who own the place (real nice folks by the way) and procured a few feet of fine ATS-34, 440C 3/16" & 5/32 x 1.5", (here's my second mistake) and some handle material.

I should mention that I did study metalworking in school (way beyond basic metal shop, up through teacher's aid in the vocational classes) and actually worked as a machinist for about two years when I was a younger man This was before I discovered that I could make more and ache less in a sales job.

So at this point I've got my modest shop and I arrive home with the steel and figure I'd better get to it. So I measure off 8" of 5/32 ATS-34 and fire up the mighty Harbor Freight bandsaw. After immediately killing the blade that came with the saw as well as both replacements I'd bought just in case, I'd only made it 1/4" through the ATS-34! I'd even splurged the extra $20.00 to get a variable speed bandsaw to be able to keep the blade cutting speed down to conserve on bladewear. At this point it became obvious that this saw was going to do no profiling. Out came the cheap hacksaw. After much grunting and a few popped hacksaw blades (frame flex!), I finally had a workable piece of material in my hand (should have started with some 1/8"x 1.25" stock for first project). So I pencil an outline on the steel as I have still been unable to find a can of Dye-Chem layout dye. Off to that monster 5" disc grinder. It quickly becomes apparent that it's as big a piece of junk as the bandsaw. I knew not to expect to get the kind of performance that the industrial machines I learned on would deliver, but c'mon, these things were pathetic. So back they went (Harbor Freight has a good return policy and I really hardly used the things). I then went to Sears and got Craftsman's best hacksaw and a few more files and for now I'm working the old fashioned way. My first knife will definitely be "hand made" for the most part.

Here's the question: what kind of grinder might be suitable that isn't a purpose specific $1000.00+ knife grinder? I've given up on a bandsaw idea for now, but I do need a grinder of some sort. I'd like to stay under $300.00 and closer to $200.00 if possible. This is only a short term solution and if I take to this knifemaking thing and the IRS doesn't beat me up too much, a real machine might be in my future, but I need a workable solution for now.

Looking forward to your replies.

jmx
 
Go back to sears and buy a 2x42 belt sander with the 8" disk and a 1hp motor. Price is under $250. I have been using one for over 2 years with no complaints. Tracks nice, and works really well for the money. I have never stalled or slowed it down while grinding. I would also suggest buying the grinding belts on ebay, cause sears charges $8 for 3, and you can buy 10 for $12 on ebay, just do a search. they have a 2x42 with a 6in disk but it is only a 1/2 hp motor and not made for heavy grinding.
Chuck
 
welcome to knife making. the problem with the saw is the blade. theirs are a waste of money. i purchased their 64 1/4" band saw
for $170.00 and a $29.00 bimetal blade from K&G and havent had a problem in two years, cutting ats-34, gb-42. carbon steels , micarta, nickel, any way you can do well with some of that bottom end stuff to get you up and blading. good luck
 
2x72" grinders are NOT designed to be knife making machines. They are deburring tools for machine shops.......but are the best thing going for what we do. MY ADVICE>>>>>>>>> and you arent going to like it..
SAVE UP FOR THE REAL THING.......its what youre going to end up with anyway, and it will make life a LOT less painful along the way....hey, why not go all the way and get a HARD CORE from John and Linda!!! :):):)
 
You make a good point (pun intended). It's what I preach all day at work (I sell high end A/V stuff). Extra money spent on better quality is never money poorly spent. However, what if I suck as a knifemaker? Then I've got a great (and expensive) machine and no talent. It's good to get advice from a master (I recently fondled a couple of your TNTs at Southcoast Cutlery, sweeeet) but I have to temper my desires with reality (mortgage, insurance payments etc.). I don't know what I was thinking trying to start with the cheapest machines available to work with some of the toughest steels. Newbie mistake!

I'm thinking about a machine like the Craftsman mentioned above which would hold me over for a while. Don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't want the best machine for the job, just that I also have a life beyond knifemaking (at least for now) which dictates what's available for discretionary expenditures.

Thaks,

jmx
 
jmx, don't feel bad. I've done basically the same thing except I went for the multipro machine from Kovals that hooks up to your bench grinder. It works reasonably well for the $160 but now that I'm getting slightly more serious about it I've up and ordered a machine from Rob Frink. Should be here by the end of this week and I can't wait. I'm sure this will be the best $1300 I've ever spent on equipment. You could get started with his machine for about $700 though if you didn't want extras.

Also, check out Grizzly and Kalamazoo. Get a Kovals catalog and say bye bye to the contents of your wallet.:D
 
Who is K&G?

Regarding the cheap bandsaw: I knew the blade was part of the problem and had already ordered a better metal cutting blade which I will have no use for, but the saw was was so underpowered and poorly built that it wasn't even worth waiting to try the better blade. I'll just have to eat the cost of the better blade once it arrives as part of the learning curve. Thanks for the advice.

jmx
 
I am seeing more and more guys who do not use a band saw.
They will get a chop saw and a nice grinder . With some of the nice belts that are available you can profile a blade real quick. Bob Engath told me that was how he made all of his blades the last time that I spoke with him before his passing.

Bobby
 
K&G (Knife & Gun Finishing Supplies)

Also give TKS a try, they're great folks. I bought my first grinder from them, a 2X48 hobby machine, about 13 years ago and it's still going strong. Well, not strong -- it's way underpowered. :D But it was a good deal for me, and I still use it for some things.

Also, here's C L Wilkins' Suppliers List , one of the great services Mr. Wilkins has provided us all. You're gonna love it.

Dave
 
Tom is right in what he said but.
I have a sears 2x42 thats what I started with (4or5yrs ago)
not the best but better files.
If you would buy one go to Supergrit to get the
belts,zirconia or ceramic (3M & Norton )
they have them for about $2.50each
I have since built a grinder with a 8in wheel
YOU DO WHAT YOU HAVE TO DO TO MAKE KNIVES AND
THAT`S NOT ALWAYS THE THE SMART WAY
 
Harbor Freight sells a metal band saw for $199, $17? on sale. I'd bet most here have one or something like it. Get a bimetal blade for it, around $28 from one of the knive supply houses. You'll be able to cut anything you want easily.
A cheap and popular grinder is one from Grizzly for $299. It is a 2x72 with a 1hp motor. I used one to make several knives before I moved up to a Rob Frink grinder with a variable 1&1/2hp.
You'll have what you need to decide if you want to get into it deeper.
I now use my Grizzly for a buffer exclusively.

If your committed to an ultra cheap try out, get the book, "$50 Knife Shop" by Wayne Goddard before you do anything else.
 
I agree with Tom...it comes up every couple weeks on what grinder to get (which is a very good and understandable question) but most guys get so excited and anxious like you have that you want to buy something to get you by. Try to fight that urge! :)

If you spend $300 now, it's $300 further away from the 2X72" grinder that you want.

I agree that most makers have a cheap import metal cutting bandsaw in their shop. Harbor Freight sells one cheap, it's a 64.5"x 0.5" machine for about $170-200 on sale. The bench-top unit is for wood, yet it's hard-pressed to even cut that (it's good you took it back).

One way that one of my friends made a few knives after I showed him some things was with an angle grinder. He roughed out most of the shape with the angle grinder and cleaned it up with files. You have to be careful and it's a pain, but this method leaves you with less blisters than if you do it all with a hack-saw and files.

If you absolutely have to have a belt-sander NOW, I think the Harbor Freight 6X48 for $2-300 is okay. It will continue to see use in your shop even after the purchase of a 2X72, as the large, flat platen is something you don't have on the 2X72. It's not a great machine, but it's pretty tough and it works pretty well. Grinders are ALWAYS one of those "get what you pay for" purchases.

If you want, you can send that steel up to me and I'll cut it to length for you with a chop saw. I was going to email that last part but your email account isn't viewable in your profile.

Good luck :)
Nick
 
I used a 64 1/2" bandsaw for quite few years but now most of my cutting is done with a chopsaw. It is much faster and cheaper to use.
 
Is the bandsaw you're talking about the one they've got on sale for $219 this week? Floorstanding model and 4 speeds (lowest speed is about 600 fpm). While I'm more focused on a grinder at this point more details about bandsaws are still good info.

As far as grinders go, are you talking about the 6"x48" belt with the 9" disc and 1 hp motor? On sale this week at $199.00? Is the craftsman 1.5 hp worth the extra $150.00 (about $350, sure seems to be built better).

Is the Harbor Freight 6"x48" more useful than the Craftsman 2"x 42" or vice versa?

Nick, thanks for the offer, but I have a buddy 2 blocks from here with a chop saw I can use (he's even got a plasma cutter if I can figure out how to use it) for raw cutting. I understand that money spent now on a cheaper grinder will make it that much longer before buying a "serious" grinder, but you know the old saying "I've got the itch, but haven't got the scratch"? That's me.

Thanks all for the advice.

jmx
 
If you want a belt grinder I can recomend a Coote. Costs about $600. without motor. Mine worked great out of the box with a 3/4 HP motor and step speed control belts. I've used it for 4 years with no major problems. He doesn't have a web site but will mail you a catalog.
Lynn
 
I'm probably as newbie as you are, but here is what works for me.

Get a miter box on your workbench if you plan to use that hacksaw a lot. I can cut through 3/16 x 1-1/2 steel in about 30 seconds with a miter box and hacksaw. It takes me a long time without it. Saves even more time if you use a visegrip and clamp the bar down so it doesnt move, and you can use both hands to attack that bar on the push stroke. No twisted or broken hacksaw blades ever.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=43458

If you get the 2x72" Grizzly grinder (G1015 I think), you can easily profile with 50-grit on the platen and contact wheel. Get real belts from Tru-Grit if you plan to do it this way. The belts Grizzly sells are really bad. Sometimes you have to let your motor cool down a little bit after profiling a big knife.

Chang
 
I'll second the Coote. My 2x72x6 cost about $335 without a motor, shipped. With sharp Norton belts, it works fine.

Chang,

What steek are you cutting in 30 seconds with a hacksaw? The HR1095 I bought from Admiral is tough. Should I have bought annealed?

Mike
 
Mike,
I've cut through HR 1084 3/16 x 1-1/2, CR-Annealed 1095 5/32 x 1-1/2, some 3/16 rebar, HR ATS-34 5/32 x 1-1/4, and 1/8 x 1 HR D2. They all cut really easily, except for the HR 1084, which was the only one of the steels that wasn't really annealed. The HR 1084 took a little bit longer and dulled the hacksaw a little more, but it didn't take too much longer. Just make sure you have it secured tightly to the miter box with your visegrips so you can really put your weight down on the saw when you are on the push stroke. If you don't have it secured well, you have to worry about it flopping around or whatever, and it takes a lot longer to saw. Change the blade when the hacksaw gets pretty dull. Blades are only like $2 or so, and you can get a lot of cuts out of them, but they don't cut forever. I use Vermont American bimetal with 24 TPI I think. It's the one designed for cutting metal around 1/8".
I e-mailed Admiral a while back, and they said the HR 1095 under knife steels is not annealed. You can order HR 1095 sheared from sheets that are annealed for extra $ or you can just buy their cold rolled annealed 1095 under knife steels (I did the latter).
 
JMX

I have one of the HF 14" bandsaws that sells for $219.00 on sale. It's a good machine, but not suitable as-is for profiling blades. It is too fast. I installed a DC motor and drive I found on Ebay and now can run from 0 - 3000 FPM, works great on steel but about $450 complete. The horizontal/vertical metal cutting bandsaw that sells for $169 on sale is the one to get. I use a 2"x48" Kalamazoo belt grinder, it works but when finances permit I will be upgrading! I also have on of HF's 12" disk sanders ($99 on sale) and it works great for profiling.

Also keep in mind that HF power tools almost always require some tweaking or modification to make them perform well. I like the challenge of this, so it's part of the fun for me (as well as saving $$$$).

If you're ever in Orange County and want to stop by, I'd be happy to let you use my saw. My email is pprouty@socal.rr.com

Patrick
 
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