I need an axe/ tomahawk!!

Good advice, thanks esdunbar. I shoot semi-regularly, I have short stroked plenty if time. I've tossed the semi-auto topic around several times but haven't jumped on one yet. I like what bonafide said about hearing the racking. It's kind of like a rattlesnake rattle. If they hear that and don't run it's a pretty good indicator they aren't there for your silverware.
 
I'm not a fan of racking your firearm to startle an intruder. I don't want the intruder to know that I am aware of them and to know that I am armed because it may just push them into a mental corner. Most people will do anything to live, and I don't want to find out the hard way that they are armed as well. When you open a bedroom door the intruder knows immediately where you are at but you, on the other hand, will not know exactly where they are. It can become the most insane game of cat and mouse in the world. We lost guys all the time in Iraq, who were extremely well trained, to clearing houses. It's a dangerous game and I want every advantage I can have, it also means that unless there is someone in the house I need to protect I will just dial 911 on my cell, set the cell down, and point the gun at the bedroom door and loudly announce my address, name, and let the intruder know not to enter the bedroom. That goes a bit against what I was saying earlier, but again if the intruder comes through the bedroom door I know exactly where they are at and it creates a funnel of death.

That being said though, there are 1 of 2 firearms that I chose for home defense that most people do not. The first is a Saiga 20 ga instead of a pump 12. Straight out of the box the Saiga 20 will have the capability of running 10rd mags or even an extremely heavy 23 rd drum. Also, the 20 ga at 100 yards still can carry 4x the kinetic energy that a .45 ACP has at the muzzle. A properly tuned Saiga will never hiccough on you, no need to worry about short stroking, and unless you store your gun with mud caked all over it you don't have to worry about the action being too dirty to work (since it isn't getting actively nasty sitting in a corner and Saiga's/AK's are known for working with gallons of sand in them much less with dust build up), and the 20 gauge is far less likely to be dangerous after travelling through a wall. The 20 gauge packs roughly 75% of the lead of the 12 gauge with around 50% of the felt recoil meaning that I can get 150% down range in the same amount of time, and just one blast of the 20 at close range is roughly equal to 2 44 magnums at close range. The decreased recoil also means that it is far more gentle on any shooter who may be shy with a 12 gauge, like my very diminutive wife who doesn't shoot nearly as often as I do.

Shotgun Ammo Numbers

My other choice for protection is an extremely reworked (I am a gunsmith) Kel-Tec Sub-2000 9mm. This one allows me a light recoiling rifle with 33 rounds of ammo in the mag (I've built mine to hold another 33 round mag on the forearm), with mags that can interchange with my pistol, and the ballistics of a 357 magnum because of the carbine length barrel. Increased distance, increased energy, decreased recoil (had my 8 year old niece popping soda cans and consistently hitting silhouettes rapid fire at 50 yards), a super light package (add a Aimpoint Micro for optics if you want and you can leave it turned on, ready to rock and roll, for 5 years before changing the battery), and compared to rifle rounds far less likely to be lethal after passing through walls.

It's all give and take, and what works for me may not work for you. Picking a firearm, and home defense strategy, is a lot like choosing a wife. I love my buddies wives, they are all sweet women, but there's not a single one of them that I would chose to live with.

Sorry if this was a bit long, and a bit on the rambling side, but defense is something I enjoy talking about and not something I get to talk about much here in Philippines.
 
Imrahil said:
I'm not a fan of racking your firearm to startle an intruder. I don't want the intruder to know that I am aware of them and to know that I am armed because it may just push them into a mental corner. Most people will do anything to live, and I don't want to find out the hard way that they are armed as well. When you open a bedroom door the intruder knows immediately where you are at but you, on the other hand, will not know exactly where they are. It can become the most insane game of cat and mouse in the world. We lost guys all the time in Iraq, who were extremely well trained, to clearing houses. It's a dangerous game and I want every advantage I can have, it also means that unless there is someone in the house I need to protect I will just dial 911 on my cell, set the cell down, and point the gun at the bedroom door and loudly announce my address, name, and let the intruder know not to enter the bedroom. That goes a bit against what I was saying earlier, but again if the intruder comes through the bedroom door I know exactly where they are at and it creates a funnel of death.
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I was talking Home Defense, not combat/dynamic entries and I will re-enforce, there's two main reasons someone is unlawfully entering your home: Theft & Assault. Either way, I want the 'intruder' to know I am armed and this going to get ugly. I teach, 'make your presence know and your intentions', ie: Get out of my house! I have a gun and I will shoot! If the intruder continues forward - then we can assume he's not there to steal a sandwiche from my frig. A surprise Ninja attack style of killing someone found inside a home is not a style I subscribe to and I do not teach that mindset.
 
Really appreciate the response, and I agree with everything you said, as it pertains to the situation you laid forth. However for me I have a big disadvantage. The layout of my residence is awful from a defense stand point. Our bedroom is on one side and my daughters is on the other. It's a ranch, and the front door is on my daughters side. I have to cross the intruder to get to her. Staying in my bedroom is not an option, and the set up makes her bedroom wall (where I would likely confront him) the back ground for the intruder. By the time I hear him and grab a weapon or two he could easily be in her room. It makes me sick to think about, but it's the truth. That being said, my home is set up with several weapons, including guns, never more than 10 feet away from me at any given time. I took great care in making sure that if guns were near her they were not chambered in case she gets ahold of them. She is still a baby and is working on crawling so I'm not too worried about her getting ahold of one at this time. Hopefully by the time she is old enough for this to be a concern, we will be in a different home. If someone breaks in with the intent to rob me, that's fine, they can take whatever they want with the exception of my wife and daughter. If the intruder is a punk there to harm me or my loved ones, then I'm going to fu&@ them up. If they are a trained group of individuals, armed and organized, sadly no matter what I do I will likely be in big trouble.
 
I agree with Imrahil. I've had plenty of formal training in long gun and sidearm fighting. Never once did I hear that I should give away the event of surprise if I'm lucky enough to have it. If someone breaks into my house, they'll never know I'm awake let alone armed. Might it scare off a teen intruder looking to show his buddies he's cool? Sure, but if it doesn't work, you just showed your ass. Take a defensive position with a gun rest (bed, back of chair anything...holding a gun, especially a shotgun, at attention gets tiring quickly) and wait. If the intruder enters you area and becomes a threat, light him up with a weapon light, SHUT really friggin loudly and aggressively, STOP!" A bright ass light and a loud shout in a quiet dark house will scare the shit out of anyone. If at any point you see a weapon, punch his ticket. If he does not stop his adance, same.

If he gets on the ground, stay BACK. Don't approach him at all. Wait for police. If he turns and runs like hell, problem solved. Let your light and voice stun him, don't give away your position first. Also, make sure loved ones are on the opposite side of the room as you. If he pops a random round in the direction of the light before you react, you certainly don't want your wife and children behind you. Instincts for you and for them will be to get behind you.

Edit, just read your post...you home layout certainly complicates things. Fast and aggressive would be my approach if we're you. Slow and giving away your position...not so much.
 
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If you can afford it then but a gransfors bruks axe. I like the small forest model, it does everything I can want, and you'll only want bigger if you're in a real forest for quite some time!

I also like the cs trail hawk! Cheap, light and a good chopper! Bank canvases too, so mod away!
 
bonafide said:
I was talking Home Defense, not combat/dynamic entries and I will re-enforce, there's two main reasons someone is unlawfully entering your home: Theft & Assault. Either way, I want the 'intruder' to know I am armed and this going to get ugly. I teach, 'make your presence know and your intentions', ie: Get out of my house! I have a gun and I will shoot! If the intruder continues forward - then we can assume he's not there to steal a sandwiche from my frig. A surprise Ninja attack style of killing someone found inside a home is not a style I subscribe to and I do not teach that mindset.
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Like I said mate, wasn't knocking you or your approach, was just voicing my own approach and the reasons behind it. I have no doubt that you are far more experienced in these things than myself and that you have extremely valid reasons for doing, and teaching, the things the way that you do.

emoney2277 said:
Really appreciate the response, and I agree with everything you said, as it pertains to the situation you laid forth. However for me I have a big disadvantage. The layout of my residence is awful from a defense stand point. Our bedroom is on one side and my daughters is on the other. It's a ranch, and the front door is on my daughters side. I have to cross the intruder to get to her. Staying in my bedroom is not an option, and the set up makes her bedroom wall (where I would likely confront him) the back ground for the intruder. By the time I hear him and grab a weapon or two he could easily be in her room. It makes me sick to think about, but it's the truth. That being said, my home is set up with several weapons, including guns, never more than 10 feet away from me at any given time. I took great care in making sure that if guns were near her they were not chambered in case she gets ahold of them. She is still a baby and is working on crawling so I'm not too worried about her getting ahold of one at this time. Hopefully by the time she is old enough for this to be a concern, we will be in a different home. If someone breaks in with the intent to rob me, that's fine, they can take whatever they want with the exception of my wife and daughter. If the intruder is a punk there to harm me or my loved ones, then I'm going to fu&@ them up. If they are a trained group of individuals, armed and organized, sadly no matter what I do I will likely be in big trouble.
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Yeah, I could see that being a severe issue. Before retiring to a life of travelling and gunsmithing I was in Military and then worked in High Risk Security/Personal Protection and used that experience to design my home before I built it. Now I look at it and realize that I left myself some new problems now that I have a family and a 5 year old daughter. Nothing we can come up with is perfect for long, and just because it is perfect for me does not mean it will be perfect for any other person in any other situation. Just throwing out my reasons and hoping that it might be able to help you out to some degree. Most people seem to rely on the 12 gauge because of its extremely well deserved reputation of being a man stopper, but then they overlook the 20 gauge that is also a man stopper. Always hate to see that, especially since in your situation smaller, but big enough to do the job, may very well be your best bet.

One thing that you might want to consider, depending on how your daughters bed is situated, is dropping to a knee before firing. At close ranges, often the ranges inside of a home, dropping your angle even a slight amount will drastically limit the chances of a bystander being hit. The closer you are the more drastic that angle change will be. It will take more time, and will be one more step to take (and one more step that could go wrong), but it is something to consider. Even a 20° angle can raise the point of impact, in the neighboring room, to a point that the round is no longer a concern.

I wish you the best in finding a solution, I know first hand that finding a solution for a situation like this can be a challenging task. I've done it a lot for other people but now that I am facing it with my own family I am suddenly nervous as can be about it all.
 
I don't have any formal training. I've been around guns of all sorts since I can remember, and am very comfortable with the weapons I have, but I have no tactical training behind me. My scenario above is difficult. It leaves me only with this. Step one: grab gun for right hand and something else I'm comfortable with throwing/ thrusting for my left. Step 2: identify threat. Step 3: see a gun, use right hand. No gun, yell "Get the hell out of here", and hopefully bury a tomahawk 1 foot from his dome. Step 4: watch him run, or, start blasting.
 
bonafide said:
I was talking Home Defense, not combat/dynamic entries and I will re-enforce, there's two main reasons someone is unlawfully entering your home: Theft & Assault. Either way, I want the 'intruder' to know I am armed and this going to get ugly. I teach, 'make your presence know and your intentions', ie: Get out of my house! I have a gun and I will shoot! If the intruder continues forward - then we can assume he's not there to steal a sandwiche from my frig. A surprise Ninja attack style of killing someone found inside a home is not a style I subscribe to and I do not teach that mindset.
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Woah. What are you talking about? No one advocated killing someone by surprise. I don't know your credentials, but if you're teaching classes, I'll have you have some. I think your position is in the minority of professionals. The problem with your approach is that it will only work if the intruder is already not there to harm you. If that's the case, no matter what, there does not need to be lethal force. If on the other hand the intruder is there to harm you, you've just made a serious tactical mistake. You can it will "get ugly," but that's nothing more than brovado. If someone knows what they are doing and you just gave them a heads up on your position...you just put the odds in the attackers favor.

The proper mind set is winning. It's really that simple. Stack the odds in your favor, be smart, and make sure the bad guy doesn't win. It has nothing to do with killing someone. Winning can be achieved by surprising someone into fleeing or surrendering...you don't have to shoot just because you surprised them.
 
Good advice Imrahil. Dropping to a knee does make sense since she will be in a crib which is only a foot or so off the ground.
I try not to think of these scenarios too often because they send me into a prepping frenzy and I can't rest until it's perfect, which it will never be. I'm currently working on getting the wife involved. If like to have her call 911 and if possible retrieve the baby while I attend to the intruder. I'm tossing around my next firearm purchase still, but I think a smart choice is a 20 gauge or even a 410 for the wife, or myself. While I wasn't in the military, the wife was and she's actually a pretty good shot. She just hates guns around the baby.
Thankfully, I live in a great neighborhood, in a great community with pretty low crime and almost zero violent crime. My neighbors are vigilant and close, so I feel pretty good about the whole thing.
 
Personally, I would steer clear of a 410. The ballistics of the 410 are extremely weak, and most evidence shows it being too weak to be able to consistently penetrate the chest cavity to a depth that would kill efficiently. If you are wanting to go smaller than a 20 gauge then I would consider the 28 long before the 410.

While this is centered around a pistol, and a longer barrel will give you better ballistics, you should still take a look at it.

Judge vs Box o' Truth
 
I may have misread bonafide advice, but I never interpreted it to mean tell the attacker exactly where you are. Even if you did, unless he knows the layout of your house, I still believe you have the advantage of knowing all the nuances (the baby has toys spread all over the living room floor right now and my wife left me 3 bags of garbage blocking the hallway). I think bonafide was saying that if your planning in sneaking up behind someone and cutting their throat, you may want to consider another alternative. I've personally had cops tell me if some one breaks in just blow them away and then fire a couple of shots into a wall and say you fired a warning shot or two. This doesn't seem bad as long as your okay with possibly shooting an unarmed harmless man. I am not. In fact as an ER nurse I would probably attempt to treat whatever injuries I dealt just so it looked good in front of a jury. It's important to consider the jury portion of this. Unless it is absolutely cut and dry, chances are your life is gonna get turned upside down for a bit. Police will be involved, attorneys, juries, neighbors, employers. It's not a n easy decision to open fire on someone.
 
bonafide said:
aint much mo' better than a pump 12ga, Remington, Mossberg, etc ..
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E,

Man, I'd been sleeping on this thread, but after reading all three pages, the above stated is just about the final word. I'm (ironically) in the process of starting a *friendly*, fiddlebacks and firearms thread, but figured I'd weigh in here ahead of time.

(Disclaimer, the following is solely my opinion; take it for what its worth)

There's a lot of "mall ninjas" and "arm-chair commandos" out there.. take home defense advice, personal defense advice and such with a grain of salt from folks on the internet unless they have some legitimate cred establishing that they know what they are talking about (i.e. Bonafide is an LEO -- good to go) as I'm sure you're aware, the internet is a crazy place ;)... None the less, the FBI has done a lot of great work publishing information in the public domain pertaining to the effectiveness and lethality of small arms in LE/home defense /CQ applications, and at the end of the day unless you have received specific training with small arms or are an avid combat/IDPA shooter, a 12ga pump -action (again IMO) is the optimal platform for home defense. Scalable, dynamic, effective, and easy to operate, it is the ideal home-defense solution for 90% of the folks out there. Me, I'm a 590A1 guy, but an 870 or just about any reliable pump action platform will do you right.

Regarding unarmed / edged weapon CQB, I trained at the Inosanto academy for a number of years, training in among other things kali/escarima (in addition to two decades of unarmed combatives); if a knife is part of your "game", train it. A lot of folks introduce an edged weapon into hand-to-hand combat, thinking that they will have a distinct advantage, and while physical stature and prowess may provide some advantage (per post #37 we are similarly built +/- an inch), there is a lot to be said about wielding an edged weapon effectively vs. wielding an edged weapon. If you're interested in some at home training / simple techniques you can look into, please PM me, and I will happily provide some links / vids. I'd also recommend googling: Michael Janich, as well as Guro Inosanto, Paul Vaunak, and others if you are interested in picking up some practical, edged weapon combative advice... In staying true to my own advice, take everything you read / watch with a grain of salt, but the above mentioned folks have a substantial amount in real-world cred and experience that they are openly sharing on the internet these days.

Just my .02, but thanks for the stimulating conversation :thumbup:
 
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emoney2277 said:
I think bonafide was saying that if your planning in sneaking up behind someone and cutting their throat, you may want to consider another alternative.
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Oh, hope I didn't come off that way because it was not my intention. I just want the chance to assess the situation and have my sights on the intruder before I let them know that I am aware of them. Action is faster than reaction and I would rather find out that the intruder is armed after I have the intruder properly in my sights. Otherwise I am giving them an advantage and removing my own. If I have the would be thief in my sights and I find that they are not an immediate threat that gives me the perfect way to wait for the cops to arrive and arrest him or simply have him leave. I hope to never be in the situation, and would do everything that I could to make sure that I am not killing a simple thief. No tv in the world is worth killing someone over.

You mention very good, and valid, points. One thing you did not mention though is the trauma that would be inflicted on a child, and adult, from simply seeing the aftermath of such a violent confrontation. Just protecting my child from having to see that horror is worth my belongings. After all I have insurance for items, but not for a child's peace of mind and innocence.

Luckily, from the legal stand point, I live in Texas where it is cut and dry. If someone is in your home you have the right to defend your home at any cost. Add in that I live at the end of a dead end road, in the country, and everyone on that dead end road is family it makes it even easier. I know who belongs there and who does not.
 
Imrahil said:
Like I said mate, wasn't knocking you or your approach, was just voicing my own approach and the reasons behind it. I have no doubt that you are far more experienced in these things than myself and that you have extremely valid reasons for doing, and teaching, the things the way that you do.
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I didnt take like your were knocking my opinion. I just wanted to accent yours was more combative/dynamic entry related and I was speaking from a regular ol Joe citizen. I dont teach you should waiting and ambushing an intruder. Defending and assaulting are waay too different worlds and many replies here are showing intent to kill .. not protect and defend ones rights. I hope no one here is put in this situation (having to defend ones family/home from assault), so while you're preparing yourself mentality how you're going to kill any intruder you may find in your home .. be mindful how even standing ones ground can turn into a media freak show circus now days.

esdunbar said:
Woah. What are you talking about? No one advocated killing someone by surprise. I don't know your credentials, but if you're teaching classes, I'll have you have some. I think your position is in the minority of professionals. The problem with your approach is that it will only work if the intruder is already not there to harm you. If that's the case, no matter what, there does not need to be lethal force. If on the other hand the intruder is there to harm you, you've just made a serious tactical mistake. You can it will "get ugly," but that's nothing more than brovado. If someone knows what they are doing and you just gave them a heads up on your position...you just put the odds in the attackers favor.
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I was replying to someone else and what i understood them to saying about suprising/attacking an intruder .. and without listing my 27 yrs of creditials of QRF, SRT, SWAT, HRE, Senior Defensive Tactics Instructor, Bushido, Ju-jitsu, kill you will a popsicle stick. Maybe you should try turning your mindset from being the person doing the combative entry into a citizen defending ones home. If 'someone knows what they're doing', seriously? Dude, you can coulda-shoulda-woulda mall ninja this topic to death. If someone knows what they're doing, then we're writing a screen play for 'Taken 3' and I need you take the place of Liam Neeson cause he's getting redundant. :rolleyes:

The proper mind set is winning. It's really that simple. Stack the odds in your favor, be smart, and make sure the bad guy doesn't win. It has nothing to do with killing someone. Winning can be achieved by surprising someone into fleeing or surrendering...you don't have to shoot just because you surprised them.
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Really? You mean like racking a pump shotgun or announcing you have a gun and will use it?
 
Will, thanks for the advice bro. I agree about the 12 gauge. I don't plan to use anything I'm not trained in fighting with, including knives. I've got a beautiful Busse TG from blade this year that just screams tactical assault but I would never use it. I'm too concerned with it being taken from me. When selecting weaponry for this scenario, that is my main concern. I figure a tomahawk can be thrown, giving me some distance between me and my attacker, and it's a relatively obscure weapon these days. The odds of the attacker picking it up and being any more proficient with it than me are low IMO. Also it's not a main stay weapon. If I throw it and miss and he goes to pick it up I still have my gun in my shooting hand and he just showed intent to harm me to pick it up. While I don't want this thread to be about killing, in my opinion it is. If I am in a siliqua took where I feel threatened enough to discharge a firearm, I won't be shooting to injure. The law would likely be on my side, but I still have to live with myself. I've obviously never taken a life (I've helped save a few) but I've heard tough guys say how hard it is to deal with and I believe them. It would be heartbreaking to just open fire on someone only to find out they were an old man with dementia who thought that he was in his own home or something. The threat has to be assessed, first. I believe many people if not all that have commented are like minded in that regard.
Imrahil, thank you for your input on the 410. I will consider it. I haven't has a chance to view the links yet but your concerns make perfect sense.
Bonafide, thank you for all your input also. I know you know what your talking about.
Esdunbar, I don't know who you are mad at. If it's me, in sorry, I didn't mean to upset you.
Here's my .02 on some of the bickering I have seen go on lately. Take it for what you will. I think it's silly. In regards to bonafide, he's a good man, and bonafide feel free to correct me if I offend you or step out of line. Bonafide is a LAE, or cop if you don't know what that means. He is trained to handle confrontation the way he handles it. Sometimes it's brash, maybe even rude, but that's him and that's ok. I work in an ER. Cops are in all the time, I have a good relationship with all of them. Cops deal with the scum of the earth every single day. The real scum. No one calls the police because they are having a good day. People treat cops like shit, they are assaulted verbally and physically daily by criminals. Cops don't even go thru drive thrus to get food half the time because some jerk off punk in the kitchen will probably spit in their shit. They get absolutely no respect. This is evidenced by Buds seemingly aggressive attitude, he's just doing what he does. You don't learn to deal with conflict civilly and politely when dealing with criminals. Criminals aren't civilized. Bud comes off harsh but he's a good dude, I've talked to him several times. He certainly does not need me to defend him whatsoever and I don't want it to seem that way. I just think he's a product of he environment he's been in. It's hard to turn that off, it wears you down. If he offends you, address it privately or just move on. Don't get pissy with a cop, you won't win. Bona, if this pisses you off, let me have it brother.
 
lol .. i am not at all offended by any comments thus far emoney. Even if someone was trying to insult me, I laugh, smh, and give it back to them. Then they cry and call foul. Its the internet. Receive it as such.
 
I'm so lost here. I've been to lots of malls and ain't ever seen no ninjas. But I'll keep en eye out. ;)

I got a hawk from James Helm, Stormcrow here on BF. I got it for cool looks, good materials, good maker, and less expensive than Busse or RMJ. Haven't used it yet so that's all I got for now. Will have to remedy that.
 
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