I should of listen to Karda

Well these guns at one point were cutting edge technology in their day.

Just because its old doesn't mean its not lethal and deadly.

Heck, people still have fetishes for AK rifles and M1 garands, and those are very good but dated designs.
 
christcl said:
Well these guns at one point were cutting edge technology in their day.

Just because its old doesn't mean its not lethal and deadly.

Heck, people still have fetishes for AK rifles and M1 garands, and those are very good but dated designs.
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Cutting edge in their day. Yep and back then was also even older but still lethal stuff. Wouldn't want to be shot with a front loader at close distance even today. Still not my gun of choice. Even if I might be better with it than most I'm even better with a modern fire arm.
 
the best weapon is the one you like and are willing to take the time to learn and practice lots with, for me its my Italian Benelli M4 shotgun.

It is the best ultimate gun? Hell no. Limited magazine capacity. Every combat reload only gives me one additional round while the same action with an AR15 gives you a full mag. It's also not optimal for shooting clays as a field version of its sibling the M2.

It is a great, formidable weapon for home defense. You bet. Even more so because I've picked it as the platform I train the most with.

The more I train with it, the more I learn about how it works, its strengths, as well as what isn't so great about it and its own limitations.
 
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christcl said:
the best weapon is the one you like and are willing to take the time to learn and practice lots with, for me its my Italian Benelli M4 shotgun.

It is the best ultimate gun? Hell no. Limited magazine capacity. Every combat reload only gives me one additional round while the same action with an AR15 gives you a full mag.

It is a great, formidable weapon for home defense. You bet. Even more so because I've picked it as the platform I train the most with.
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That sounds great and I bet you can shoot more rounds with that one into bad guys than if you would have spent your training and money on my grandpa's double barrel shotgun.
Its a good gun, even todax. I still hit flying targets and ducks with it but while reloading they'd get you. (Not the ducks, the bad guys)
;-)
 
OK guys, Lets please keep it about the very interesting debate. No devolving into chaos or personal attacks on the opposing position of this friendly discussion....

hmm, Not necessarily Jens. I have had people try to tell me that reload is the time to rush a shooter. I point out that people like me reload BEFORE we are completely out of rounds so you don't know when I am and when I am just waiting for the bad guy to show something I can shoot.

And if you are into sporting clay shooting, you know that reloading a double barrel doesn't take long enough to rush someone at all, Just long enough to stand up into the next shot. Infact it is usually faster to reload a double barrel than a semi-auto even accounting for the number of rounds. I can put 2 in a break open side by side and be back on target faster than I can get 2 in my 1100 and back.
 
Shavru said:
OK guys, Lets please keep it about the very interesting debate. No devolving into chaos or personal attacks on the opposing position of this friendly discussion....

hmm, Not necessarily Jens. I have had people try to tell me that reload is the time to rush a shooter. I point out that people like me reload BEFORE we are completely out of rounds so you don't know when I am and when I am just waiting for the bad guy to show something I can shoot.

And if you are into sporting clay shooting, you know that reloading a double barrel doesn't take long enough to rush someone at all, Just long enough to stand up into the next shot. Infact it is usually faster to reload a double barrel than a semi-auto even accounting for the number of rounds. I can put 2 in a break open side by side and be back on target faster than I can get 2 in my 1100 and back.
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Well said Shavru, I think it's obvious who the real shooters are i this conversation.
PS.. The only reason I said anything about the UZi is because its a used as an example of a effective smg, which it is not. A closed bolt system would of been better compare skilled vs novice shooter. The Uzi has to many variables to be considered for use by a novice
 
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Bawanna said:
I kind of resemble that deaf ears comment. Definitely not my strong suit.

I do control to full auto MP5's at work. Great fun to play with. Mostly left by the way side in lieu of small compact AR's in 223/5.56.

Kind of sad. I still show them love from time to time.
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I wasn't talking about you buddy. I should of replied with a quote lol. You r right about the 5.56 taking over. The only issue is penetration and fragmentation at distances over 75 yards due to the reduced velocities from short barrels
 
Jens Schuetz said:
That sounds great and I bet you can shoot more rounds with that one into bad guys than if you would have spent your training and money on my grandpa's double barrel shotgun.
Its a good gun, even todax. I still hit flying targets and ducks with it but while reloading they'd get you. (Not the ducks, the bad guys)
;-)
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I guess we will always see it differently and that's cool. Have have valid points.. A couple ...lol jking
We r still cool cause we r khuk nuts lol. Same sickness brotha
 
gurkha berserka said:
Well said Shavru, I think it's obvious who the real shooters are i this conversation.
PS.. The only reason I said anything about the UZi is because its a used as an example of a effective smg, which it is not. A closed bolt system would of been better compare skilled vs novice shooter. The Uzi has to many variables to be considered for use by a novice
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Never said an Uzi is the best....
I only compared it to a pistol (Walther P1) where the Uzi came out way on top for me and my platoon. Almost nobody hit anything with the 9mm P1. Jokingly we said its only good as a boomerang. The Uzi however was dead on. Nobody said there aren't better weapons. My point wasn't that I found some ultimate 9mm projector. My point was that there are huge differences between weapons.
This was just to show that weapons can make a difference. Often a bigger difference than the shooter himself.

Never said I'm the best shooter and weapons historian, you did. In fact I was very honest about my abilities. Still I can see when a target was hit by one weapon and when it wasn't hit by another and that by 20+ guys.

Where do you disagree?
 
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The shooter will always be the deciding factor, that's where we disagree buddy. Equipment plays a very small role especially with novice shooters. It takes a good shooter to get the best out of their equipment. Guns are like golf clubs. They take skill to use. You can put a set of $7000 Callaway clubs in a newbies hands and he wouldn't do any better than a set of $200 clubs . Guns are the exact same way, it takes an experienced shooter to reap the benefits. The movies and video games make shooting look easy. It takes considerable skill to even hit a big eight inch paper plate in as little a 7 yards with a handgun. I speak from decades of real world shooting experience. It's the man and not the equipment. It's the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight no matter how big his teeth/ guns may be.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
Never said an Uzi is the best....
I only compared it to a pistol (Walther P1) where the Uzi came out way on top for me and my platoon. Almost nobody hit anything with the 9mm P1. Jokingly we said its only good as a boomerang. The Uzi however was dead on. Nobody said there aren't better weapons. My point wasn't that I found some ultimate 9mm projector. My point was that there are huge differences between weapons.
This was just to show that weapons can make a difference. Often a bigger difference than the shooter himself.

Never said I'm the best shooter and weapons historian, you did. In fact I was very honest about my abilities. Still I can see when a target was hit by one weapon and when it wasn't hit by another and that by 20+ guys.

Where do you disagree?
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The Uzi and the P1 aren't even in the same category. One is a little 30 oz pistol and the other is a 6 lbs smg. Are you sure you're not talking about video games. Uzi makes a standard, mini, and micro Uzi. The micro Uzi is the pistol but it is a joke and more of a novelty. No military or police force would ever use it. It was a " toy" for the civilian market. I think u might be talking video games man. Still love ya though
 
Gee. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard spot about all this modern technology stuff and mind set. All I have is a little Sharps rifle....
 
My take on any of the pistol caliber subguns is that I'd rather have a battle carbine the same size-it's easier to hit with an mp5 (on semi) than a pistol-if you're not very skilled. It's silly to have a 6-9lb weapon that packs only a little more punch than a G19. My duty gun was a 12" kalashnikov with a chopped down underfolder-same size as an mp5, waaaay more smack, and 200m+ extended range. The mp5 was for fun on the range and peace of mind for certain 'terps.
 
J W Bensinger said:
My take on any of the pistol caliber subguns is that I'd rather have a battle carbine the same size-it's easier to hit with an mp5 (on semi) than a pistol-if you're not very skilled. It's silly to have a 6-9lb weapon that packs only a little more punch than a G19. My duty gun was a 12" kalashnikov with a chopped down underfolder-same size as an mp5, waaaay more smack, and 200m+ extended range. The mp5 was for fun on the range and peace of mind for certain 'terps.
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I totally agree with you on that one. A 7.62x39mm is far superior to the 9mm in any barrel length but especially a 12 krinkov style AK. The shorter AK and its round is also superior to a short barreled M16 due to the caliber. The 5.56mm needs high velocity to fragment and even the Army's M4 with its 14.5 inch barrel won't fragment past 125 yards, where as the Marine 20 inch barrel M16a2 and a4's will fragment out to 300 yards due to the additional velocity afforded by the longer barrel.
The AK's .30 caliber round doesn't need fragmentation because it makes a bigger hole than the puny 22 caliber of the M16 family of weaponry. The AK krinkov is one of the best SBR's around.
 
Bookie said:
Gee. I'm stuck between a rock and a hard spot about all this modern technology stuff and mind set. All I have is a little Sharps rifle....
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The Sharps rifle is amazing, especially on .45-70 and .45-90. It was the sniper rifle of its day.
 
Which to Bookie and to some extent myself, that day is today. Both born a century too late. But as he's told me more than once, I'm kind of glad, cause otherwise we'd already be dead.
 
gurkha berserka said:
The shooter will always be the deciding factor, that's where we disagree buddy. Equipment plays a very small role especially with novice shooters. It takes a good shooter to get the best out of their equipment. Guns are like golf clubs. They take skill to use. You can put a set of $7000 Callaway clubs in a newbies hands and he wouldn't do any better than a set of $200 clubs . Guns are the exact same way, it takes an experienced shooter to reap the benefits. The movies and video games make shooting look easy. It takes considerable skill to even hit a big eight inch paper plate in as little a 7 yards with a handgun. I speak from decades of real world shooting experience. It's the man and not the equipment. It's the fight in the dog, not the dog in the fight no matter how big his teeth/ guns may be.
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So how do you explain then that there are 20 more or less novice guys who don't hit anything with a P1 golfclub but hit everything with an Uzi golf club?
Oh you explain that in your second post.
The Uzi is a different class of golf club.
Even if it shoots the same 9mm golf balls, at the same target, in single shots it hits much better even with the same shooter.
My point exactly. :-) Weapons do matter a lot. Call it different class. Still one works better the other one doesn't.
Wanna stay in the same class? Why is my MP9 HK that much better than a P1 Walther. Same shooter after all.

Couldn't that apply to knifes as well? In an open field you might be able to destroy more opponents with a light long sword than a short heavy one. No matter if you are new or experienced it should improve your odds. No?

If you really want to know you could just ask instead of trying to belittle me by implying computer game knowledge.
We used the normal Uzi. Most guys in our m113 made mortar tanks had P1 in adition to the G3. The gunner had an Uzi. Had to disassemble/assemble it blindfolded and with gas mask and all the little games you probably know too from your service.

No idea why you intend to provoke or question me? Do you want to distract from a flawed logic? Or do you need some pics? Just ask, however I would have to scan them first and black out license plates and faces.

But even then the point stands with one weapon we hit nothing and with the other one all the time.

Kukri nut?
Astk and other heavy weights perform much better in chopping big hard wood than my lighter Kvluk for example. How? If it's just the man and not the tool?
Now if different Kukris fair vastly different at chopping wood isn't it logical that different Kuks would perform very very differently in a fight against soft targets? Think for example about weight, reach, pointyness, concealability, deployment speed
 
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I feel like I'm on a merry go round here. The thing that comes to my mind most reading this thread is the immortal words of my least favorite woman in all the world. What difference does it make?
 
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