I should of listen to Karda

Jens Schuetz said:
You out shoot newbies. Nice. I could beat 10 kindergarteners with a Nerfsword while they have a full size Katana. What does it tell you about the Nerfsword or the Men? Nothing.

It's always a good idea to isolate factors so as few as possible are left and it's easier to see what's going on.

A good way to see the difference a weapon can make is to let the same kind of guys use different weapons.
(I've seen a lot lot lot of difference in Newbies and myself)

A good way to see what difference experience can make is to let the same weapons be used by differently experienced guys.
(That's what you've seen)

Conclusion?
The same shooter with a drastically better gun will shoot drastically better.
The same gun with a drastically more skilled shooter will perform drastically better.
My additional point, you usually can't change the men as easily so I'd start with the thing which makes more difference and fast.


I believe the only debate left is the extremes.

Would soldiers already serving 4 years with flint stock rifles beat new recruits wielding M16s in an open field battle? New recruits as in they already had an hour to know how to aim and pull the trigger and where the magazine goes.
I believe at some point the difference between equipments becomes so big that it overrides the difference experience can make. Nightvision being only one such disruptive technology.
Of course there can be a few individuals on the planet who are so skilled and tough they beat regular troops armed to the teeth with their bare hands. Kind of cool and we all want to be that guy from the movies but is that the rule or the exception?

Or back to the dogs.
Can a dog without teeth and lots of fight usually beat a dog with teeth and less fight.
Can a dog with dull teeth and fight still not beat the stronger dog with sharp teeth and less fight?
Wouldn't you bet your money on a dog with sharp teeth and normal fight over a toothless dog with more fight?


Also sorry for calling you less than an expert. I mean you used just common sense. You are right, who in their right mind would still use a P1 or an Uzi? Budget constraints. I heard from the News of 2014 the German Navy has only one helicopter able to fly. Kind of not being able to fulfil the Nato contracts in a worse case scenario is a bit embarrassing. I bet Putin likes it for his guys seem to have more fight and working equipment.
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I think we were having two different arguments. I was trying to explain why you example was apples and oranges and you were trying to prove a point about equipment.

Equipment will make a difference if the fundimentals of a givin subject are used. In the handgun world that means, front sight focus and trigger control are the keys to handgun accuracy. You will hit the bullseye every time if you squeeze that trigger and focus on your front sight. It should feel like a surprise when the gun goes off if you are practicing proper trigger control. Anticipating the recoil and being heavy handed on the trigger is what ruins accuracy.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on you other analogy too. If you have 4 newbies with AR's and 4 experienced shooters with black powder rifles on an open field of battle at let ls say 100 yards. I would take the 4 black powder guys over the newbie AR guys any day of the week. One shot one kill for each of them.

We will never see eye to eye and thats ok. I have seen actual dog fights (not proud of it) the dog with the biggest teeth hardly ever wins. It's those little tenacious pits with the attitude that usually tear the crap out of those big dogs. A one toothed tenacious dog will kill a sharp toothed cur dog. Cur means not tenacious or afraid in the dog fighting world if you didn know.

We can still be buddies cause we are both khukri nuts buddy. You just drove me crazy comparing a full size smg with a pistol lol. They may shot the same round but they are different animals. Your Uzi did have a stock if its the standard Uzi. It's hard to tell because of its design. The first ones had wood stocks but a metal underfolder that looks like a knee joint is what is issue on it. Unless you had a micro Uzi which has a small side folding wire stock. The Uzi pistol is the now with no stock but that was designed for the civilian market not for the military .
 
Peace offerings been offered on both sides, I think enough has been said to support both opinions.

This thread is so far drifted, that we've allowed the person from that "other" company stated at the beginning of the thread, to have good people at each others throats.

Enough has been said. No one needs to agree with anything, everyone has an opinion, and as mature adults, we need to accept those opinions, regardless, whether we agree or not, whether they're right or wrong, and whether they are factual or not.
 
Put a fork in what? my steak hahahah. Ok but only if can I use my knife too, I promise it will be a HI khukri. I hate having to eat my steak with just a fork and my sharp meat tooth. I only have a one of my "meat" teeth left back there in my mouth.

I hope it didnt appear that we were at each others throats. I had no ill will towards him at all. Hope it didnt look that way...I called him buddy many times and tried to extend the olive branch with the while " agree to disagree" thingy.

Anyway.... Who wants to see pictures of the guns we are talking about? I gotz a safe full of them, not sure if you khuk nuts like seeing pictures of guns cause I wouldn't mind showing them off hahahah.
 
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Many of a khuk nuts are avid gun nuts as well. I'd suggest a new thread in the cantina for show and tell.

I have one or two guns myself, maybe 3.

Actually I'm wearing two of them in my avatar picture. Guess they are kind of little.
 
GB, I saw the "Olive branch" several times, and the agree to disagree.

That being said, there are many here, that would love to see your firearms, here in the Cantina.

We may be khuk addicts, but many have gun and rifle collections as well.
 
Throat tearing would look different for sure :-)

Ill make sure it's a steel fork and not the aluminum one. You on the other hand are experienced enough to only poke the soft parts of the steak and cut against the fibers so it's less tough in the mouth.

Pictures? Why do you even ask? Want!

The Uzis the MPs had had a sheet metal folding stock. It folded vertically under the gun. Ours looked the same but lacked the folding stock. First time we saw one we were like "wow" and drooled. Didn't know that was standard since there wasn't any useful Internet back then. Did we get all the broken ones? Were the stocks removed for some reason? No idea. Sometimes guys got hurt with some equipment so it was kept locked away or modified. The backhatch of our m113 for example wasnt standard and welded shut due to too many lost limbs. Maybe too many people pinched their skin in the folding stock. Lol. Also lots of our equipment was 2nd grade. Good enough for training tens of thousands of our compulsory military guys I guess. The good stuff was either preserved in some storages or given to the, back then, newly founded crisis response teams.
So either broken crap or modified on purpose or maybe even the wood stock model made less bulky. We never asked since we weren't aware that the cool folding stock was the actual standard.
Here is a picture of the different models used.
http://www10.pic-upload.de/25.03.13/8dto5czrls5.jpg
MP2A1 was ours. Without the stock.
 
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Jens Schuetz said:
Throat tearing would look different for sure :-)

Ill make sure it's a steel fork and not the aluminum one. You on the other hand are experienced enough to only poke the soft parts of the steak and cut against the fibers so it's less tough in the mouth.

Pictures? Why do you even ask? Want!

The Uzis the MPs had had a sheet metal folding stock. It folded vertically under the gun. Ours looked the same but lacked the folding stock. First time we saw one we were like "wow" and drooled. Didn't know that was standard since there wasn't any useful Internet back then. Did we get all the broken ones? Were the stocks removed for some reason? No idea. Sometimes guys got hurt with some equipment so it was kept locked away or modified. The backhatch of our m113 for example wasnt standard and welded shut. Maybe too many people pinched their skin in the folding stock. Lol. Also lots of our equipment was 2nd grade. Good enough for training tens of thousands of our compulsory military guys I guess. The good stuff was either preserved in some storages or given to the, back then, newly founded crisis response teams.
So either broken crap or modified on purpose. We never asked since we weren't aware that the cool folding stock was the actual standard.
Here is a picture of the different models used.
http://www10.pic-upload.de/25.03.13/8dto5czrls5.jpg
MP2A1 was ours. Without the stock.
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That doesn't surprise me. I've seen a lot in a lot of military forces there's a tendency to do something similar where they lie about something not because it's true, but because it's important. It frequently takes the form of "this piece of equipment is the most important you have, it cost $$$$$$$$, use it". And when you actually look into it, it costs $5 or maybe $50 at most, but it's important but no one wants to use it, so they claim it's expensive and thus important.
 
gurkha berserka said:
I own 3 G3's and they are defiantly harder than the G36 due the the porky 10lbs G3 and its horrible delayed roller locking recoil system. I may not be a expert on what country fielded what weapons and when but I am pretty knowledgable when it comes modern firearms, their operating systems and uses. That's why I got locked into the Uzi argement
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I must take exception to your "horrible delayed roller locking recoil system" statement. I also have multiple HK91/G3 rifles, and my german-manufactured HK91 is the most accurate 7.62 x 51 battle rifle that I own, and the roller-locking system is a real marvel of engineering. I don't know of any other semi-auto design that will continue to function just fine with a broken extractor? What about it makes you want to call it "horrible"? Of course, the stock HK91/G3 triggers leave a lot to be desired, but I had mine worked on, and it is now very good for a military trigger. My best M1A is close to being as accurate, but it is more finicky about what ammunition it will shoot well, while my HK91 seems to shoot everything well. I do have a fixed 6x scope mounted on it, which certainly helps me to shoot it well, since my eyes aren't what they used to be, and open sights are becoming harder and harder for me to use.
 
Scara said:
That doesn't surprise me. I've seen a lot in a lot of military forces there's a tendency to do something similar where they lie about something not because it's true, but because it's important. It frequently takes the form of "this piece of equipment is the most important you have, it cost $$$$$$$$, use it". And when you actually look into it, it costs $5 or maybe $50 at most, but it's important but no one wants to use it, so they claim it's expensive and thus important.
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You are so right. That happens all the time. Luckily today we have more info's at our fingertips and most people speak english. Back then you would have to frequent a library or read exotic magazines in a different language. I guess even the sergeants didn't know any better and just repeated what they've been told.
 
Jens Schuetz said:
You are so right. That happens all the time. Luckily today we have more info's at our fingertips and most people speak english. Back then you would have to frequent a library or read exotic magazines in a different language. I guess even the sergeants didn't know any better and just repeated what they've been told.
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Well I still suspect most people still believe the lies. A favorite of mine is the son of a colonel who told me about the million dollar neck protector his mother was issued. He didn't believe that the price was a lie until I showed him where you could buy one new for less than $50 online. Of course the killflash that was more expensive than the optic you put it on was pretty egregious. Yet both served the purpose of getting people to use important equipment.
 
Thanks for the pic Jens. A picture speaks a thousand words. That is the standard Uzi with a eight inch barrel. To bad yours didnt have the stock because it aids in accuracy immensely. My guess is that you got older worn out equipment because the Uzi folding stock was known for wearing out. After awhile it would just dangle under the receiver. The knee joint held up but the main one would flop around. The micro Uzi had a much nicer side folding wire stock that provides a decent cheek weld. FYI I lover German guns. I have a HK SL8 which is a civilian G36, I love it's short stroke piston and Obendorf Germany makes the best hammer forged barrels around. They have also perfected chrome lined barrels and chambers.
Sorry for miss spelling Obendorf but my German is a little rusty. I have been to your country on more than a few occasions. Both my little brothers are in the Service. One is a Marine SSGT. Who served for over ten years in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other was in the Air Force stationed in Germany. I would fly over there atleast four times a year to tear it up over there. We also spent alot of time in Holland if you catch my drift wink wink.
 
Scara said:
Well I still suspect most people still believe the lies. A favorite of mine is the son of a colonel who told me about the million dollar neck protector his mother was issued. He didn't believe that the price was a lie until I showed him where you could buy one new for less than $50 online. Of course the killflash that was more expensive than the optic you put it on was pretty egregious. Yet both served the purpose of getting people to use important equipment.
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My dad was a colonel, so nothing bad about colonels' sons. :-p
Are you sure the neck protector didn't have build in flares against heat seeking missiles ;-)

What's the kill flash with the optic? Protection against light in a night vision device?
 
Jens Schuetz said:
My dad was a colonel, so nothing bad about colonels' sons. :-p
Are you sure the neck protector didn't have build in flares against heat seeking missiles ;-)
What's the kill flash with the optic? Protection against light in a night vision device?
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Heh. No flares against heatseekers, just kevlar and similar materials.

A kill-flash is that little plastic honeycombed piece that you put over the front lens of a scope or red-dot sight so you don't get light glinting off of it. They cost about five dollars, and I was once told they cost more than a Trijicon ACOG.

And agreed, nothing bad about colonels' sons, but his mother was a colonel and believed the million dollar lie. It surprised me.
 
I feel a group hug coming on...

Haven't had one of them for a while. Should be nice.
 
moparsbob said:
I must take exception to your "horrible delayed roller locking recoil system" statement. I also have multiple HK91/G3 rifles, and my german-manufactured HK91 is the most accurate 7.62 x 51 battle rifle that I own, and the roller-locking system is a real marvel of engineering. I don't know of any other semi-auto design that will continue to function just fine with a broken extractor? What about it makes you want to call it "horrible"? Of course, the stock HK91/G3 triggers leave a lot to be desired, but I had mine worked on, and it is now very good for a military trigger. My best M1A is close to being as accurate, but it is more finicky about what ammunition it will shoot well, while my HK91 seems to shoot everything well. I do have a fixed 6x scope mounted on it, which certainly helps me to shoot it well, since my eyes aren't what they used to be, and open sights are becoming harder and harder for me to use.
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I called it horrible because delayed roller lock while reliable has far to much recoil over a gas operated system. I don't mind delayed roller lock in either the 9mm or 5.56 model 93 & 94. HK abandoned that operating system years ago an no other manufacter has used it since its pattern expired. You will only see it being used on old HK's and copies. its a dead design. I much prefer my Springfield Armory SAR8 over the M1a all day long. The older Garand operating mechanism tough on op rods and the recoil forces are just as bad as the G3's. I have found major benefits from upgrading my regular stock with a Choate stock on my SAR8 which is a duplicate of the hk91 but mine was made by EBO in Greece. Its probably the best "copy" of the HK made on licensed machinery. It's the same stock a the HK mp5pdw just a little longer. The original stock makes it almost impossible to get a good cheek weld. The Choate stock is offset from the center so aligning the sights is much easier as long as u are a righty cause its offset for rightys.

The delayed roller lock isn't that bad I guess unless you are dealing with 7.62 which produces to much recoil to be n effective assault rifle. It is better served as a designated marksmen rifle with a scope attached. this is where this rifle shines. My SAR8 is as accurate if not more accurate than most of my bolt guns. The MSG90 and PSG1 are where the 7.62 NATO round belongs.

I should of said the large bore delayed roller lock is not a good design because of the recoil but I like the simplicity of it. I hate trying to get the bolt head back on the carrier though. That damn heavy pressure spring makes it tough to rotate the bolt back into position after cleaning. I don't have that issue on the smaller calibers. Spain actually designed the mechanism even though Germany takes credit. The CETME company invented delayed roller lock. The older SiG AMT's used this mechanism too. It's known in current design circles as a archaic design with much better opinions out there. As you are aware the bolt is extremely heavy and all that reciprocating mass upsets sight picture badly. A inline gas operated gas system has lower recoil and also doesn't require a fluted chamber.

The recoil and pressures are monstrous on delayed roller lock. They had to flute the chambers to avoid tearing the rims off cases. It's also extremely bad to use steel cased ammo in delayed roller lock because rims still get ripped off leaving a empty case with no rim on it stuck in the chamber. Thats why it works without a extractor.The gun is useless without a special tool to remove the case. Most of the g3's are being used in Africa and other third world nations because they have been sold on the surplus market in favor of better designs. You will either see an AK or a G3 being used by insurgents in those countries cause they are so cheap and available. That's why you can find g3 magazines for like 3 bucks. There are so many of them on the surplus market due to their lack of interest from other countries.

Delayed roller lock is just a delayed blowback action which is better served in smaller calibers. I do however prefer the g3 over the m14
 
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I'm in for the group hug. I'm a lover not a fighter, well maybe a little fighter when the need arises. Ok I'm a blood thirsty killing machine but I do dig occasional group hugs.
 
gurkha berserka said:
Thanks for the pic Jens. A picture speaks a thousand words. That is the standard Uzi with a eight inch barrel. To bad yours didnt have the stock because it aids in accuracy immensely. My guess is that you got older worn out equipment because the Uzi folding stock was known for wearing out. After awhile it would just dangle under the receiver. The knee joint held up but the main one would flop around. The micro Uzi had a much nicer side folding wire stock that provides a decent cheek weld. FYI I lover German guns. I have a HK SL8 which is a civilian G36, I love it's short stroke piston and Obendorf Germany makes the best hammer forged barrels around. They have also perfected chrome lined barrels and chambers.
Sorry for miss spelling Obendorf but my German is a little rusty. I have been to your country on more than a few occasions. Both my little brothers are in the Service. One is a Marine SSGT. Who served for over ten years in Iraq and Afghanistan. The other was in the Air Force stationed in Germany. I would fly over there atleast four times a year to tear it up over there. We also spent alot of time in Holland if you catch my drift wink wink.
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8 inch barrel sounds right. It looks a lot bigger when you mount it reverse. If you haven't done it give it a try. It looks hilarious.

I'm glad you like German guns. You certainly know more about their internals than me. I only used them. I never even checked the city they were made in. Kudos. :-)

I like American colts (1911) and the Henry rifle. I wish I could afford an original one. Do you know why (in the movies at least) any American would be happy to capture a P1 if he already has a 1911? Maybe more a trophy thing than better performance?

Your brothers might be too young but I'm thankful to all American troops stationed in Germany. They made the reunification possible and prevented a hostile takeover by the Russians. I know lots of hippies long time ago and a few today didn't like the nuke bases but it all turned out for the better if you ask me.
Before that their Grandpas gave their lives to get rid of the crazy Austrian guy. Lots of people forget this nowadays.

Netherlands? I get your drift. Nice art museums and stunning tulips?
 
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