I think the ZT 0888 Max is about to ship - the 0454 is also about to ship

knifehoarder said:
The 454 is supposedly only available direct through ZT/Kai. 272 were made I believe. They'll sell out in 5 minutes.
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Well, it will be interesting to see if he can lean on his unscrupulous dealer friends to try and get as many of those as he can. I wonder when the mods will step in and force him to purchase a knife dealer tier membership?
 
While your points may be valid, your history and obvious bias kinda precludes you from anyone believing it. You should probably just accept that fact.

To me - it sounds like you were one of those guys making it harder for other guys to own these knives at a reasonable price. I'm all for capitalism, but nobody should have to work an extra 20-40 hours to pay you an extra $500...all because you had a connection that they didn't. Just not cool.

And seriously, in what I assume would be a 7-8 figure a year market for ZT knives, I really don't see $136,000 in total sales (272 of the 454's at $500/unit) hurting ZT dealers.



Turborocket said:
What is up with all the victim-hood? Some guys should start your own Occupy movement of the knife world, and blame all the 1%ers for your lot in 'knife' life. If you guys actually knew the full story, you probably wouldn't be so quick to judge.

I am HIGHLY confident that I could acquire multiple 0454s in a few weeks if I wanted to, then flip them for profit. But, I stand by what I said... this new sales model punishes the good dealers because it leaves them out in the cold. I, for one, enjoy supporting my local dealer. The one I go to is pretty much a dedicated knife store, and selling knives is their life-blood. I like hanging out in the store and giving them my business (even if it costs me more than big on-line stores), and it is an avenue for me to handle some knives before buying. Now, ZT will more than double their top line income on LEs, good dealers lose out on higher margin products to sell, the consumers who previously put forth the effort to buy direct will pay the same as before (at or near MSRP from good dealers), and it will do absolutely nothing to flippers and secondary market prices.

For the record (and for the nosey), I bought way more LEs than what you can see here on these knife forums (well more than twice the number that you can prove on interwebs). The ones you cannot see are either in my safe, or in my EDC drawer, or sold to friends at my cost. Some even went to knife store employees on lay-away or payment plans, at my cost. One even went to an active .mil friend at way less than my cost. So, you guys can hate if you want.
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You guys are amusing, and sad - mostly sad. Be careful tomorrow morning... market makers in NYC and Chicago will be flipping stocks and trying to add value (inadvertently) to your 401k accounts and portfolios.

I'm not sure how I am to blame for all your flipper-ills. I pay secondary market prices too, but I don't sit on here b****ing about his prices. No one forced me to pay those prices. I either want it bad enough and put in the time, money and/or effort to acquire it, or I shut up about it.

I had the same "ins" that you had - a phone. I even posted the lottery winners of the 0888 when it was first announced. Go look it up. The few dealers I chose to deal with, were taking wait lists. Most didn't take waiting lists. I worked the phone to increase my chances of getting an LE; you didn't. All of the dealers I bought from, let me buy one knife. Those dealers worked their wait lists, and some worked their list all the way to the bottom, then came back to me a second time. What would you do as a dealer? Let the product sit, collect dust while waiting for you to one day do your homework and buy the knife?

Some of you guys did your homework on the 0454 and are now gearing up for the end of September, I'm sure. Others will come along later on and complain about how you had the "in." Occupy.
 
Mayenard said:
A Ferrari is a bad example. I'm not paying $1500 for a 0392 to begin with. Just like I am not paying $100,000+ for the Ferrari. To me, the 0392 is worth roughly $400, before AND after purchase. If I sell it one day, I'll likely sell it for close to what I paid for it as I would a Sebenza.

Show me a $40,000 Ferrari I can purchase and then turn around and sell for $100,000 and I'll quite my job and flip one every few months, even if the limit is one model per household. ;)

The point I am trying to make here is that I would never buy an exotic car and will settle for my Camaro. I will also likely never purchase a $1000+ knife and will settle for a mid tech with great FF and steel. An XM or LE ZT is not worth over a grand to me, just like a Camaro is not worth over $100k.

I'd also like to add that I would drive the bejeezus out of a Ferrari if I had one, just like I do the Camaro. :)
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Did it occur to you while writing that you were proving MY point? I can't show you a $40k Ferrari that will sell for $100k+, but I can show you a $500 knife you can sell for $1000+. You might not quit your job to do it, but you would sell it for the profit. What Kai is doing with the direct sale is two things. First is give someone who REALLY wants one a chance to pay MSRP. Second is make it impossible to quit your job and make a good living selling ZT LEs. I am for both of those goals. I am just honest enough to say that it is because I want to make a profit on the deal.
 
Quiet said:
No. Because I don't care that much. I just know that I personally have seen you selling multiple LEs for absurdly jacked prices. So, what that tells me is that you don't actually care about the hobby, you just care about getting paid. Like I said, I know all about folks like you. I used to be a receiving manager at Wal-Mart back in the mid 90's when action figures and Hot Wheels were hot. All the scalpers would be there at four AM to try to buy up all the rare stuff from the fresh unpacked cases to resell at the local flea market.

Then I just started permanently banning them all from my particular store. :) Time to get a real job, ladies.
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What part of getting up at 4 am then spending all weekend standing by a table in a flea market isn't a real enough job for you?

BTW, Wal-Mart uses its buying power to force suppliers to sell to them at a loss and then undersells local stores out of business. But when corporations do it that's capitalism. An individual doing it is a scalper scumbag. No one is FORCING you to pay jacked up prices, but while you are taking down Turborocket's history, go ahead and get mad at him AND THE BUYERS. If those knives weren't SELLING at those prices the prices would come down. I don't know what hobby you guys think is getting ruined, but coin and stamp collectors don't complain that their collectibles sell for more than face value.
 
Stop treating knives like baseball card or anything else highly collectible. Problem solved.
 
blarkk said:
What part of getting up at 4 am then spending all weekend standing by a table in a flea market isn't a real enough job for you?

BTW, Wal-Mart uses its buying power to force suppliers to sell to them at a loss and then undersells local stores out of business. But when corporations do it that's capitalism. An individual doing it is a scalper scumbag. No one is FORCING you to pay jacked up prices, but while you are taking down Turborocket's history, go ahead and get mad at him AND THE BUYERS. If those knives weren't SELLING at those prices the prices would come down. I don't know what hobby you guys think is getting ruined, but coin and stamp collectors don't complain that their collectibles sell for more than face value.
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Scalpers are people who prey on folks who follow a hobby. Nothing more. As I clearly stated, they (and you, by the way you're posting here) add nothing of value to the transaction between a company making a product, and someone who wants that product.

Listen, I really candidly don't understand why bottom feeders are here looking for respect. Secondary market prices are obscene directly as a result of scalpers charging outrageous prices for limited edition goods, goods that they went out and snapped up, expressly with the purpose of adding several hundred percent to the price and reselling it. "That's Capitalism!" True! But another facet of this free country is that we have the right to call it what it is: scalping. I'm all for people trying to make a profit. But doubling (or more) the price of an item on the secondary market? That's a jack.

Also, you misunderstand. I'm not mad. I'm actually happy. Happy that ZT is now taking action to burn Turbo's business model of scalping people. I can only hope that other companies will do the same. As for the buyers, there will always be people who will do whatever they have to do in order to have a possession in hand. Me personally? I don't feed bottom-feeders, so I'm not that person.

I will say, thanks for trying to defend Turbo, Blark. I'm sure he appreciates having at least one person on his side. Are you by any chance one of those "friends" or ".mil" people he sold a ZT LE at his cost to? LOL

Anyway, I will bow out of this thread. Turbo and scalpers like him will never get a dime of my money, and now I won't be giving him any more of my time either.

P.S. Edited. Dick comment from me. Flea market table folks are doing what they need to do to eat. Is what it is.
 
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blarkk said:
Did it occur to you while writing that you were proving MY point? I can't show you a $40k Ferrari that will sell for $100k+, but I can show you a $500 knife you can sell for $1000+. You might not quit your job to do it, but you would sell it for the profit. What Kai is doing with the direct sale is two things. First is give someone who REALLY wants one a chance to pay MSRP. Second is make it impossible to quit your job and make a good living selling ZT LEs. I am for both of those goals. I am just honest enough to say that it is because I want to make a profit on the deal.
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In turn I am sure you can see my point as well. Flippers will no longer be buying 10 LE ZTs at a time and turning 2x profit. 30 of these flippers could easily sell out those LEs and then set that unreasonable markup leaving consumers like myself who can truly appreciate the knife itself, and not the potential value, without the knife unless we pay that markup. Sure a few might acquire a LE at a reasonable price but I believe the flippers are what made up most of the secondary market which was the problem. Kudos to ZT for trying to eliminate that problem and letting these knives go to someone like myself who doesn't care to turn a profit.

I believe if enough consumers like myself get ahold of these Limited Edition knives it will cripple that secondary market. I, for one, will not sell this user for 2x what I paid for it as I already mentioned in my previous post; that is if I ever decide to sell it. The end result here is that much larger percentage of us who appreciate the knife will actually get their hands on one at a reasonable price. If it wasn't for this, consumers like myself would never own one.
 
I would love to see the citation that shows how Walmart is forcing suppliers to sell at a loss. That would mean suppliers were going out of business, wouldn't it?

On the Ferrari front, Ferrari INVITES certain people to buy their limited edition cars - you must be on a list of preferred customers to even be considered worthy of one of their special editions.

ZT has taken steps to keep their dealers from doing things against the companies wishes, and these steps will also squash the hopes and dreams of the flippers.

Anyone that buys 5 LE knives for the express purpose of reselling them is a dealer, and if they are not a dealer member here they are also taking advantage of Kevin and the good folks of BF in general.

best

mqqn
 
So, about 2 weeks and a few days till the order goes live. I'd get one if they made a version that was closer to the Sinkevich proto - non-composite satin/SW blade with blue anodized hardware.

The 0392 is something I'll be down for though.
 
Turborocket said:
You guys are amusing, and sad - mostly sad. Be careful tomorrow morning... market makers in NYC and Chicago will be flipping stocks and trying to add value (inadvertently) to your 401k accounts and portfolios.

I'm not sure how I am to blame for all your flipper-ills. I pay secondary market prices too, but I don't sit on here b****ing about his prices. No one forced me to pay those prices. I either want it bad enough and put in the time, money and/or effort to acquire it, or I shut up about it.

I had the same "ins" that you had - a phone. I even posted the lottery winners of the 0888 when it was first announced. Go look it up. The few dealers I chose to deal with, were taking wait lists. Most didn't take waiting lists. I worked the phone to increase my chances of getting an LE; you didn't. All of the dealers I bought from, let me buy one knife. Those dealers worked their wait lists, and some worked their list all the way to the bottom, then came back to me a second time. What would you do as a dealer? Let the product sit, collect dust while waiting for you to one day do your homework and buy the knife?

Some of you guys did your homework on the 0454 and are now gearing up for the end of September, I'm sure. Others will come along later on and complain about how you had the "in." Occupy.
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You're not in the stock market. There's no risk your investment will depreciate or lose value because you're just flipping something that you know a lot of people want. There's no skill or business acumen involved in flipping LE knives. ZT has done the design, manufacture, and marketing...all you're doing is attempting to make yourself another middleman. Nothing illegal about what you're doing, but as I said before I wouldn't expect everyone to like it, much less go along with you complaining about ZT stepping in to curb that practice.
 
Exact approach that Hinderer takes, and it seems to function wonderfully for them... Exclusive to their website, it prevent gauging like what secondary sellers like to do. This step just proves once again that Kai is maturing and taking over the market where pricing couldn't be controlled by secondary sellers. No more wait lists, no more "ins" and equal chance to all. Does this limit my ability to purchase them? Yes, but I will not complain about equality and fairness to everyone. Turbo we all know your motives and many others as well, but the run is over so either quit complaining or chase the rabbit farther down the hole like the rest of us.
 
I wonder if Turborocket has ever had to buy a ticket for something on Stub Hub at a hefty markup?

He's not an investor, he's a scalper.
 
Scurvy092 said:
I wonder if Turborocket has ever had to buy a ticket for something on Stub Hub at a hefty markup?

He's not an investor, he's a scalper.
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Or perhaps a big baby that can't play the KNASDAQ anymore, so he's crying and going home without his toys.

Blah blah stock market, blah blah fair profit, blah blah you guys are sad, not me. So you sold a ZT LE to a military serviceman for less than what you paid? I guess that makes you a hero! And it makes Kai evil since clearly that prevents this 'loss' of yours from being covered by selling many of the same knife for hundreds more than what you paid.

What's amusing is to see someone blame Kai for their scalping business going south. Nonsense rationalizations of altruism don't impress me very much.
 
I think we are still going to see flipping, just that the secondary market prices are going to go that much higher now that flippers will pay MSRP as a starting point and it will be a bit harder for them to get multiple knives (but not really for the motivated ones). Think about ticket scalping, they put lots of rules, regulations, even laws etc. to ensure scalpers can't get batches of tickets and rip people off, but they still find a way in every popular venue.

I have no problem with ZT changing the program, it will curb dealers doing less than the honorable thing with their discounted inventory (though there's going to be a TON of dealers biting at the bit to order these LE's as well and then they will then sell them for profit), and keeping more profits in house selling at full MSRP directly, but I suspect the bulk of their motivation was not based on changing secondary market pricing and stopping people from flipping them.
 
As I said, amusing and sad, "bruh". Some of you guys sit there behind a keyboard, spewing your vitriol, bullyism, personal attacks and hatred (on my thread, I might add). Go Occupy/troll on your own thread. Craigslist R&R called and wants their posters back.

I simply made a statement that I wasn't buying the 0454 (not crying, not disparaging ZT, a simple statement that I wasn't buying), due to recent changes, and you dark-hearted souls, with your reading comprehension turned off, jump to judge and turned this into a flipper troll-fest. Have fun with it... I'm going to have fun in my 3 dimensional life, and you guys can stay here in the binary world, blame me for your ills and troll on.
 
LOL Hear that, gang? This bottom feeder thinks WE'RE the trolls. Man, that's rich.
 
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