I think we put WAY too much emphasis on alloys...

[singularity35]

Yes, but what to me stood out in your original post is that knife and steel companies are just hyping us to make us buy more expensive alloys and that we're better off using older steels with good heat treat because performance is more or less the same at a lesser price. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I understood from your first post.

 

[sodak]

I cannot even begin to argue with your personal experience.

That's right, you can't. But you can give examples of your own personal experience or testing data, but you haven't.

All I can tell from your statement is that you own a ZDP-189 blade that chipped

And you accuse the knife/steel industry of distorting facts.

Sorry my opinion offended you [...]

It didn't. You're immature attitude and accusatory tone to an entire industry offended me.

Instead, this thread has turned into people attacking me, my education, and my knowledge.

Wrong again. No one is attacking you or your education/knowledge. As I've stated, there are lots of folks on this forum with more of both than you. I'm challenging your painting an entire industry with a broad brush with a *cursory* knowledge of the subject matter. You come out swinging, don't be surprised when people swing back.

Welcome to my ignore list. I'm outta here. Lock away.

 

[hardheart]

When you combine steel construction, automotive and transportation, consumables, general steel structures, etc. I think you'll realize just how much steel is unalloyed all together, and the steel that is alloyed is simply alloyed to allow for a deeper heat treat with less risk of cracking. Alloy steel is very expensive and in industrial applications people do everything they can to stick to simple carbon steel.

No increase in impact toughness? No increase in wear resistance? No increase in red hardness? No increase in corrosion resistance? No increase in dimensional stability? No increase in any other properties?

Sorry, I meant between alloys and carbon content (as related to hardness), hardness contributes to edge holding a whole lot more than alloys. you can add as much vanadium to mild steel as you want, and you won't get a good knife blade without that carbon...

I guess that's why they're called 'carbides'. Tell us, what's the point in going above the eutectoid?

I cannot even begin to argue with your personal experience. You stated above, heat treat and edge geometry are equally important in rating a knife. Do you have the exact same knife in CPM 10V as you do in older steels? Same heat treat? Same edge geometry?

Could you answer the question yourself for any knives you have?

Yes, this is my point. Knives are getting harder: edges are lasting longer.

Based on what observation?

Nope, I claim that when steels get hard they get MORE brittle. It's the way things work. Every steel has a balance of hardness and ductility, when one goes up, the other goes down: it's as simple as that. This is not to say that a hardened steel cannot take incredible loading before breaking. Also, I don't think hacksaw blades are run at 66 Rc... That means they would have to be quenched at the absolute maximum hardness and not tempered a bit. Please find a manufacturer that is selling 66 Rc hacksaw blades...

www.stockfer.pt/Catalgos_PDF/Wespa/Folhas%20de%20Serra.pdf
Probably just more lies.
So, no secondary hardening or embrittlement zone?

Not exatly true. The harder the knife, the more resistant to deformation. A harder edge will break before it deforms because it's ductility has been reduced. If "The harder the knife, the stronger the steel" were true then we wouldn't temper anything and all blades would be made of high carbon steel with 66 Rc ratings.

Umm, the harder the knife, the stronger the steel. Hardness is a measure of strength. You said it yourself, resistance to deformation.

Sorry my opinion offended you, but everyone has the same right to a discussion no matter level of education or occupation. Do you disagree with my statement that old steels are soft and new steels are hard? Do you disagree with my statement that alloys don't matter as much to the end consumer as hardness and heat treat do? I am not trying to cast aspersions on the steel industry as much as I am trying to get people to stop focusing on the alloys within the steel instead of where the steel arrived after heat treat. Knife companies have preyed on this hype by over-advertising steel type because of the belief that heat treat doesn't matter as much as alloy content. Gerber is a great example of this with S30V that performs very poorly due to improper heat treat.

I disagree. S30V is newer than 1095. Find me a S30V blade at 66Rc. Find me an appreciable percentage of knives being made with steel that isn't from the 60s, 70s or older. What 'new' steels are much harder than T15? Why does heat treat matter more? I say heat treat matters the same for all alloys. Demand a quality heat treat every single time, and then the difference becomes the alloy. You can change the geometry at home.

I know I made a few mistakes, I know I don't know nearly everything there is to know about steel, but does that really prevent me from making the statement that hardness is the primary factor in edge holding?

What prevents you from doing it is any proof to support your claim. Fortunately, others have already provided it. Of course, now what one should look for is an alloy with an attainable hardness high enough to meet wear needs, along with suitable toughness, and any other properties desired.

 

[Bumppo]

I agree. We DO put too much emphasis on alloys. We are knife nuts. It is what we do.

 

[me2]

Sometimes someone that has taken classes then been out in the real world looking at the practical side of things realises that the classes didn't quite teach them 'everything'.

Congradulations. You win the fuzzy dice award for understatement of the year, so far. Its just May.


Bubblewhip,

You're not quite correct, except in a certain sense. Cr does not significantly make hardened steel harder, i.e. stainless steels are harder than carbon steels. It allows thicker sections to reach full hardness all the way through. Cr and many other elements allow higher hardness to be retained at a given tempering temperature, so in that sense you are correct, but the hardness comes from the (free) carbon content, not directly from Cr.

To the OP, there are essentially 2 issues here. First, you have a point about the over emphasis on alloys used in knives. 1095 and 12C27 will satisfy all but the most demanding users of knives. Both are relatively simple carbon/stainless alloys respectively. However, the newer steels offer improved performance over these, and for some people it is worth the cash. The improved performance is due to the alloying elements added.

The second issue is the derrogatory attitude towards the steel industry. It's not as though the knife companies just accept the steel industries word that CPM steels are better. They do their own testing whenever they decide to switch steels. Some even publish it for our reading/review. Buck comes to mind here. The same goes for every other industry. Your somewhat cynical attitude is mirrored by industry. They do a lot of their own testing before switching to a new steel. They don't just take Crucible, Buehler, ThyssenKrupp, Carpenter, Sandvik, etc.'s words for it. All of these companies, and some I forgot, have developed their own versions of the CPM process, because their customers find benefit and ask for it, and are willing to pay for it, providing the motive for the development of new alloys that the steel companies make a profit supplying. There is hype in the knife industry, and I suppose there is hype in other industries. The people making the product know what material will accomplish their goals; whether or not they make the sales people aware of it is another matter and frequently the source of some exageration, sometimes moving into hype.

Part of the above issue is the presence of some incorrect statements and mis-stated information about how and why steel does what it does. There aren't that many, but enough that it subtracts from your credibility when you talk about the steel industry pushing alloys and their properties.

On another note, its a shame Alvin doesn't seem to be active in the knife community any more. His 1095 at 66 HRc, O1 at 63.5 HRc, M2 at 65 HRc and 8670M at 63 - 64 HRc blades are almost mythical. His source for M2 was tested and found in the 64.5 to 66 HRc range, and his source was the source for Sodak and my power hacksaw blades. I can attest to their toughness and edge holding abilities at these high hardnesses, and the emergence of CPM M4 steel in the cutting competitions is a testament to what the CPM process, alloy content, proper heat treating, and geometry can accomplish. BTW, there is more than one way to get M2 up to 65 HRc. The way you mention above is not the way its done for the hacksaw blades. Heat treating them is not easier because of the alloy content, and the alloy content is directly responsible for their increased performance. I will concede that the M2 and M4 alloys are relatively old and not new supersteels. However, the CPM process has been recently applied to one of them.

 

[sykes3170]

Holy cow! I know less now than I did when I started reading this thread. Opinions are like you know whats and everybody has one. Heck i'm just glad we have the technology to make thirty dollar knives perform better than just about anything just a few decades ago. Peace!

 

[singularity35]

Holy cow! I know less now than I did when I started reading this thread.

You and me both brother!

 

[A.P.F.]

This thread has been a most enjoyable read and I thank Michael and all the others who have contributed.

My area of scientific expertise lies elsewhere, but notwithstanding the valuable discipline of metallurgy, when applying any blanket statements about metals, to the enormous variables found in knife making, I can't help but feel that we stray into the realm of qualitative rather than quantitative values. The advantages of INFI and CPM-M4 are realized in two different domains of use, as well as the way in which they are used within those domains.

I see Blade-smithing as an art and the various types of steel are like the colors on a pallet. The artist chooses the colors based upon his vision of the final creations and I feel that the use of one color, regardless of the shades, would be rather boring. I appreciate the great variety of steels available today and look forward to trying each one in various permutations of knife design. I suspect that I am not alone in this.

 

[ishiyumisan]

I love when a plan come's together!

 

[MikeC]

I live in Lafayette, LA where there is a substantial amount of industrial fabrication going on year round in connection with the oil and gas industry. My assistant coach for my son's soccer team runs a metal supply business here, me being a knife nut and him being in the metals business has lead to some good conversations during scrimmages. That said your statement concerning industrial applications using carbon steel is 180 degrees from what goes on down here. They make everything down here out of some serious alloys mainly stainless like 316/416 and variations thereof, also lots of aluminum because corrosion is such a huge issue down here. I know there are exceptions to every rule but down here is completely opposite of what you describe.

I understand what your trying to convey I just think you painted with way too broad of a brush when you should have made a general point in more specific terms.

 

[Swedge]

Congradulations. You win the fuzzy dice award for understatement of the year, so far. Its just May.


Bubblewhip,

You're not quite correct, except in a certain sense. Cr does not significantly make hardened steel harder, i.e. stainless steels are harder than carbon steels. It allows thicker sections to reach full hardness all the way through. Cr and many other elements allow higher hardness to be retained at a given tempering temperature, so in that sense you are correct, but the hardness comes from the (free) carbon content, not directly from Cr.

To the OP, there are essentially 2 issues here. First, you have a point about the over emphasis on alloys used in knives. 1095 and 12C27 will satisfy all but the most demanding users of knives. Both are relatively simple carbon/stainless alloys respectively. However, the newer steels offer improved performance over these, and for some people it is worth the cash. The improved performance is due to the alloying elements added.

The second issue is the derrogatory attitude towards the steel industry. It's not as though the knife companies just accept the steel industries word that CPM steels are better. They do their own testing whenever they decide to switch steels. Some even publish it for our reading/review. Buck comes to mind here. The same goes for every other industry. Your somewhat cynical attitude is mirrored by industry. They do a lot of their own testing before switching to a new steel. They don't just take Crucible, Buehler, ThyssenKrupp, Carpenter, Sandvik, etc.'s words for it. All of these companies, and some I forgot, have developed their own versions of the CPM process, because their customers find benefit and ask for it, and are willing to pay for it, providing the motive for the development of new alloys that the steel companies make a profit supplying. There is hype in the knife industry, and I suppose there is hype in other industries. The people making the product know what material will accomplish their goals; whether or not they make the sales people aware of it is another matter and frequently the source of some exageration, sometimes moving into hype.

Part of the above issue is the presence of some incorrect statements and mis-stated information about how and why steel does what it does. There aren't that many, but enough that it subtracts from your credibility when you talk about the steel industry pushing alloys and their properties.

On another note, its a shame Alvin doesn't seem to be active in the knife community any more. His 1095 at 66 HRc, O1 at 63.5 HRc, M2 at 65 HRc and 8670M at 63 - 64 HRc blades are almost mythical. His source for M2 was tested and found in the 64.5 to 66 HRc range, and his source was the source for Sodak and my power hacksaw blades. I can attest to their toughness and edge holding abilities at these high hardnesses, and the emergence of CPM M4 steel in the cutting competitions is a testament to what the CPM process, alloy content, proper heat treating, and geometry can accomplish. BTW, there is more than one way to get M2 up to 65 HRc. The way you mention above is not the way its done for the hacksaw blades. Heat treating them is not easier because of the alloy content, and the alloy content is directly responsible for their increased performance. I will concede that the M2 and M4 alloys are relatively old and not new supersteels. However, the CPM process has been recently applied to one of them.

Congratulations to you. You win the fuzzy dice award for most valuable contribution to this brouhaha by making factual assertions, avoiding personal attacks, and teasing out what has caused others to make personal attacks on the OP, all within one post. This is not to suggest that others haven't made facutal assertions, avoided personal attacks, or teased out what has caused others to make personal attacks on the OP, but you get the fuzzy dice. Enjoy them.

 

[Macchina]

That's right, you can't. But you can give examples of your own personal experience or testing data, but you haven't.

My statement did not need examples. I claimed that older steels were generally hardened to around 55 Rc and didn't hold edges very well. Newer steels are now being hardened to 65 Rc and hold edges for a long time. For the last time: My point was that hardness has increased right along side edge holding. This may be because the alloys allow a higher heat treat but my point is to not purchase based on alloy content, but hardness instead.

If you want me to post findings where 420HC @ 55 Rc does not hold an edge as well as ZDP-189 @ 65 Rc, I'd be happy to, but I think we all know what the results will look like. I have found in my own personal experience that ZDP-189 holds an edge longer than 420HC.

And you accuse the knife/steel industry of distorting facts.

It didn't. You're immature attitude and accusatory tone to an entire industry offended me.

I am not accusing them of distorting facts, I am simply pointing out that they hype alloy content (most of the blame goes to some less than first class knife companies) more than hardness when it is actually hardness that will give the users what they want.

Wrong again. No one is attacking you or your education/knowledge. As I've stated, there are lots of folks on this forum with more of both than you. I'm challenging your painting an entire industry with a broad brush with a *cursory* knowledge of the subject matter. You come out swinging, don't be surprised when people swing back.

Welcome to my ignore list. I'm outta here. Lock away.

Many on this thread (including you) have attacked my education and doubted my knowledge. I'm not crying about it, just calling you out when you say you didn't do it. You came to my thread and got all huffy. If you want to ignore me, be my guest!

 

[Thomas W]

I am not accusing them of distorting facts, I am simply pointing out that they hype alloy content (most of the blame goes to some less than first class knife companies) more than hardness when it is actually hardness that will give the users what they want.

Could you give some examples of the hype you're speaking of?

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

very informative, one of the few walls of text I have actually enjoyed reading. Do me a favor though (blame the APA for this)...could you throw a few citations in there? It will probably cut down on some of the guys who are going to go through the roof over this...

Good post, though.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I would like to know where all these super hard knives are at. For production knives there are very few that are hardened to 65. There are a handful around 60-62 but the majority of knives are still being hardened in the 58-59 range. So how are we getting blades that have so much more wear resistance when for the most part they are being hardened to the same range they have been for years? The only S90V blade I have is hardened to 58-59 and I guarantee that it holds an edge much longer than just about anything else at that hardness. When comparing knives of different steels at the same hardness, almost always the highly alloyed ones hold an edge quite a bit longer than the low alloyed ones. Yes hardness does make for higher wear resistance, but it is really only fair to make that comparison to blades of the same steel. Comparing one steel at one hardness to another steel at another hardness has way too many variables to get any useful information out of.

So yes, hardness does have a significant effect, but alloy has just as much effect on wear resistance. When you look at lower end blade steel compared to the super steels at the same hardness, then you will see how much alloying effects wear resistance.

I think you are getting attacked because you have made such a blanket statement about an industry. You may have gotten straight A's and learned everything you were taught. But I went through the same engineering courses and they are there to teach you the basics. Unless you are getting a masters or PHD at a university that has close ties to a foundry then you are not learning the newest cutting edge information. Plus a lot of that information will never make into a text book because it is a trade secret. When were your text books written? When was the last time one of your professors worked for a steel company? A lot of the breakthroughs in the 'super' steels has occurred in the last 10 years. I would be willing to bet there are very few colleges that are teaching the newest information. What you learn in engineering classes are the basics and what there is good theory for. Some of the newer super steels might not even have a good explanation for why they behave the way they do yet.

 

[nsm]

Just one look at his avatar and you know he's just kidding around, right Mike? Come on, let us all know this was a joke to get people riled up.

Kids these days, always pranking away.

 

[Macchina]

Just one look at his avatar and you know he's just kidding around, right Mike? Come on, let us all know this was a joke to get people riled up.

Kids these days, always pranking away.

What? The rut is a rough, rough time...

 

[me2]

What? The rut is a rough, rough time...

Depends on where you are in the pic/avatar.

 

[gkrausmann]

I admire your tenacity.

 

[Ankerson]

I am doing a Cardboard testing series now as some of you know.

The biggest and most important part of the test is slicing paper after cutting the cardboard.

I am not done yet with the series, but sofar only 2 steels have passed the paper test with flying colors as in it was like I never cut the cardboard at all. (VG-1 and AUS-8 are the top dogs sofar)

I have tested:

S30V (2 knives), AUS-8, INFI and VG-1 sofar with 20CV, M4 and SR-101 coming up next in the series.

I am hoping to test as many as I can in the futureas I get knives in to test.