I think we put WAY too much emphasis on alloys...

[Broos]

I did, and I adressed it. No human can put the exact same level of sharpness on multiple blades of different steels. The test is a great hypothetical idea but impossible to implement effectively without any variables.

Before you state that, you have an obligation to tell us what your definition of sharpness is! I'll bet that if you can define it, there is a way to get and confirm the blades are at equal sharpness.

I think the starting point of ER testing, or more accurately the starting point of an ER comparison, is an interesting issue. The FFD2 tests raised an interesting point about it - they defined sharpness as a CATRA REST test, made the blades equal at the start of the test, then found that some blades outcut others right at the start of testing. So if you want to start the test at equal cutting performance levels, you may have two blades at the beginning of the test at unequal sharpnesses!

 

[sodak]

I'll give the OP a fair hearing when he backs up his statements with good testing and provides us with the data. Until then, to me, he's just another "took a class, now I know everything". Seen too many of those, and I've done too much of my own testing to buy into it. You make me identical knives out of AUS 8 and D2, and I can tell you very quickly which is which.

So can a lot of other guys on this forum.

 

[me2]

Yep, D2 has a certain taste that stainless AUS-8 can't match. The stainlesses all taste the same though, or maybe its the scar tissue on my tongue.

 

[jdm61]

As previously stated by Mete, the reason that steels that contain vanadium are harder to grind is that vanadium carbides are very wear resistant. if you don't believe my, just try hand sanding some CPM M4 or even something with a much lower vanadium content like CruForgeV. People who work with M4 usually recommend that you get it to as close a finished state as you can before you harden it. Alloys would not be added to steel if they didn't have some function, or, in some cases, multiple functions. Manganese makes steel deeper hardening. Chrome and vanadium are carbide formers. Chrome also seems to make steel deeper hardening and easier to roll. If you add enough chrome, it makes steel stain resistant> Sulphur makes it more free machining (not always good for knives) and nickel makes it more impact resistant. Simple carbon steels work very well and and the ones with lower carbon content and higher levels of manganese are quite easy for the newbie knifemaker to work with. with that said, 1075 is not going to have the edge retention/abrasion resistance of W2 or the toughness/impact resistance of L6. Of course, this all assumes proper heat treating. By the way, if you heat 1095 to 1600F before quenching, you have heated at least 100 degrees too hot. Also, IIRC, you have significantly less time than 6 seconds from the time it hits the quenchant to get it below the nose of the curve if you want it to get hard.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

i read this whole thread.


my brane hurted.

 

[A_Blade_Afficionado]

I'll give the OP a fair hearing when he backs up his statements with good testing and provides us with the data. Until then, to me, he's just another "took a class, now I know everything". Seen too many of those, and I've done too much of my own testing to buy into it. You make me identical knives out of AUS 8 and D2, and I can tell you very quickly which is which.

So can a lot of other guys on this forum.

+1
A couple intro classes to metallurgy is just that, the tip if the iceberg. There's a reason ZDP can cut through 5x the amount of cardboard that AUS8 can before dulling to equal levels of sharpness.
Is the difference between S90V and S110V that much of a difference? No. But compare either of those to AUS8 and it's a huge improvement. Some get caught up in the steel craze but there's a difference between entry level steels and super steels, noticeable enough to warrant the extra cost.

 

[Ankerson]

+1
A couple intro classes to metallurgy is just that, the tip if the iceberg. There's a reason ZDP can cut through 5x the amount of cardboard that AUS8 can before dulling to equal levels of sharpness.
Is the difference between S90V and S110V that much of a difference? No. But compare either of those to AUS8 and it's a huge improvement. Some get caught up in the steel craze but there's a difference between entry level steels and super steels, noticeable enough to warrant the extra cost.

How many people really use their knives that much to beable to tell the difference though?

One would have to open a whole lot of letters and clean a lot of fingernails and slice a lot of cheese the way most use their knives.

Sure there are really some that do use their blades, but that's not really the norm.

I cut enough cardboard with my Voyager to fill the bed of my truck when I was getting rid of a bunch of boxes and it was still sharp when I was done......

 

[RevDevil]

How many people really use their knives that much to beable to tell the difference though?

One would have to open a whole lot of letters and clean a lot of fingernails and slice a lot of cheese the way most use their knives.

Sure there are really some that do use their blades, but that's not really the norm.

I cut enough cardboard with my Voyager to fill the bed of my truck when I was getting rid of a bunch of boxes and it was still sharp when I was done......

lol!
Levity

 

[A_Blade_Afficionado]

How many people really use their knives that much to beable to tell the difference though?

One would have to open a whole lot of letters and clean a lot of fingernails and slice a lot of cheese the way most use their knives.

Sure there are really some that do use their blades, but that's not really the norm.

I cut enough cardboard with my Voyager to fill the bed of my truck when I was getting rid of a bunch of boxes and it was still sharp when I was done......

Last I checked no cardboard box is big enough to require being cut, just having the packing tape cut and breaking it down will fit any box I've seen in a truck bed.
But if you can cut cardboard for 4 hours with ZDP or 2 hours with AUS8 it would be logical to pick the better performing steel right?
With super steels, if I can, why not? If all of us knife guys settled for whatever worked (AUS8 in your example) then why own anything but an SAK, Buck 110, and machete? Following the logic of your steel comparison then that's plenty ample for anything needed. So why own more than those three knives?
It's easy for you to talk about how AUS8 is ample yet you insist on heavy duty knives. You like heavy duty knives because they perform better for your uses than light duty knives. People who buy premium steels buy them because they perform better for their uses.
Isn't it a bit hypocritical to insist on only heavy duty knives and then knock those who buy premium steels?

 

[hardheart]

The majority of steels were created to work in industries well outside of the scope of what we do with knives. Still, there is a noticeable difference in performance to those who use knives frequently and take care in the sharpening and maintenance.

There are major differences in the steels, the foundries have not been lying for decades about this. The differences are possibly not noticeable to the average knife user. The average knife user is not comparing a dozen different alloys on $200+ knives in an EDC rotation. Heat treat is critical for the performance of the knife. But every steel in every knife should be properly heat treated. The best heat treat is going to be determined by alloy content. A certain strength, toughness, wear resistance, and corrosion resistance will be achieved by a certain heat treat, for a certain alloy. There is absolutely no way to separate these things.

The premise is slightly insulting to all involved. Someone like Glesser, Busse, Fowler, etc have been feeding us all lines of BS about whatever alloys they are using. CATRA's machinery fabricates test results. Crucible, Uddeholm, Sandvik, Carpenter, Hitachi, etc. tell tall tales about the material properties of their alloys, and fake micrographs. We are all too gullible to be able to see when we are being lied to, and too delusional to not invent performance differences.

None of that is true. The closest truth is that people are spending too much on alloys they don't need, because their type of use does not allow the differences between alloys to be demonstrated. The easy fix is to stick with cheaper alloys in tested designs. If you don't need 5160 toughness or S110V wear resistance, then don't get them. Just don't say there is no difference.

And if you want to approximate the performance of a 'super' steel with a less 'super' one by extended soak times and involved quenching & tempering operations, please be ready to pay the bills for the extra man hours, temperature control devices, soak media, hazardous delivery & disposal charges, workplace certification, etc. Let's say you want to make A2 even tougher, you can austemper it... for up to 100 hours.

 

[enderwiggin]

...And just to continue HardHeart's line of reasoning, wouldn't it make more sense to realize that just because production companies may be capable of doing all the steps to ideally to create AUS-8 blades that outperform Other S30V production blades, that doesn't mean it would be equally cost-effective.

It also doesn't mean they're hoodwinking us. Of course using fashionable steel is a marketing ploy, but it's not necessarily sinister.

I am no expert by any stretch, but I assume major knifemakers use steels like S30V, not only because they're desireable, but because they can acheive the same performance of a perfectly heat-treated, quenched AUS-8 blade (for example) at less expense?

 

[singularity35]

And even if for my uses there will be no appreciable difference between say AUS-8 and ZDP-189, I still would like the ZDP because a time may come when I will need it's hard wearing properties. In the same way that my uses might not challenge a hard use folder but I'd like my folders to be able to withstand hard use if ever the need comes up.

 

[Ankerson]

Last I checked no cardboard box is big enough to require being cut, just having the packing tape cut and breaking it down will fit any box I've seen in a truck bed.
But if you can cut cardboard for 4 hours with ZDP or 2 hours with AUS8 it would be logical to pick the better performing steel right?
With super steels, if I can, why not? If all of us knife guys settled for whatever worked (AUS8 in your example) then why own anything but an SAK, Buck 110, and machete? Following the logic of your steel comparison then that's plenty ample for anything needed. So why own more than those three knives?
It's easy for you to talk about how AUS8 is ample yet you insist on heavy duty knives. You like heavy duty knives because they perform better for your uses than light duty knives. People who buy premium steels buy them because they perform better for their uses.
Isn't it a bit hypocritical to insist on only heavy duty knives and then knock those who buy premium steels?

Were I go we have to cut them down to a reasonable size before we can put the cardboard down the chute at the landfill.

I like some of the Premium steels just like the next guy and use them for certain things.

All I am saying is that most people wouldn't notice the difference in the way most knives get used today.

For the rest of us that do happen to use our knives for more than opening mail and cleaning fingernails the premium steels should work well for us.

The Steel I use the most in folders is VG-1 and it is a premium steel as my main EDC is a 4" Voyager as it's my go to knife. I did EDC a Recon 1 in AUS-8 for 10 years and it never let me down when using it.

I also use my Strider SmF in S30V and ZT 0301, also have a Custom Folder being made in CPM 154.

 

[me2]

People who buy premium steels buy them because they perform better for their uses.

Isn't it a bit hypocritical to insist on only heavy duty knives and then knock those who buy premium steels?

People who buy premium steels buy them for a variety of reasons, including that they just want to buy premium steels. A collection of knives in all the varied steels would be pretty interesting, even if none of them were ever used.

No its not hypocritical. Those 2 things aren't really related.

 

[DennisStrickland]

i beleive our student o.p. has got the message. if his premises had any validity our phd engineers & metallurgists would have stessed it years ago. a little education can be a negative experience but as all formites i welcome his freedom to express his opinion.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The closest truth is that people are spending too much on alloys they don't need, because their type of use does not allow the differences between alloys to be demonstrated. The easy fix is to stick with cheaper alloys in tested designs. If you don't need 5160 toughness or S110V wear resistance, then don't get them. Just don't say there is no difference.

Quoted for truth. My mentality is that there ARE differences...it just doesn't typically matter that much as long as the steel is cutlery-grade and has a good heat treatment.

a little education can be a negative experience but as all formites i welcome his freedom to express his opinion.

:thumbup: That's the whole point of a forum, isn't it? Free exchange of ideas. :thumbup:

 

[Easyrider]

I tend to agree with the initial idea of this thread that as knife lovers and collectors we place too much emphasis on blade steel composition. I used to be a steel snob and guess what? I have a well designed knife in Aus-8, a steel I normally would turn my nose up at; I carried and used the knife for several weeks and guess what? I had to sharpen it more often than a knife with S30v blade steel but the Aus-8 sharpened up easier and took a wicked edge.

Since then I'm not so hung up on blade steel anymore, knife design is much more important to me now.

 

[Ankerson]

I tend to agree with the initial idea of this thread that as knife lovers and collectors we place too much emphasis on blade steel composition. I used to be a steel snob and guess what? I have a well designed knife in Aus-8, a steel I normally would turn my nose up at; I carried and used the knife for several weeks and guess what? I had to sharpen it more often than a knife with S30v blade steel but the Aus-8 sharpened up easier and took a wicked edge.

Since then I'm not so hung up on blade steel anymore, knife design is much more important to me now.

That is one thing about AUS-8 that people don't understand.

It will take a laser sharp edge in a hurry and if it's polished it will hold it for a long time too.

It's a much better steel than most would have others believe.

No, it's not S30V or CPM 154 or VG-10, but it very good.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

That is one thing about AUS-8 that people don't understand.

It will take a laser sharp edge in a hurry and if it's polished it will hold it for a long time too.

It's a much better steel than most would have others believe.

No, it's not S30V or CPM 154 or VG-10, but it very good.

Quoted for truth. :thumbup:

 

[Ankerson]

I have another cardboard cutting Video uploading now.

Strider SmF CC SW DP, S30V Steel.

It did very well for a thicker flat ground blade, but since the box wasn't the same as the others it had glue on the edge when I was done so it wouldn't cut the paper very well. I did clean it off after the video and it did slice the paper easy after that. :thumbup: