I was afraid this would happen with the new steels CS is using...

ALLHSS said:
I forced myself to watch 5 minutes of that Krav Maga video. It was tough. If the attacker (man with knife) had any, including a normal adult male, level of strength the defender's (man without knife) techniques would be far less than effective. In many of the techniques a stronger grip on the knife would have resulted in severe cuts to the defender, if not total failure to disarm the attacker. In all the techniques I watched a mediocre knowledge of body movement and grappling would have nullified the disarming techniques.

I don't know the demonstrator's credentials. Maybe he is a seasoned, decorated Israeli military operator and I have no place to say what I've said. I also know that the wrestling, and relatively small amount of knife training, I have would allow me to counter the defenses he showed in the first 5 minutes. If I am right then those techniques are ineffective.
Click to expand...

the part 5minutes and 31 seconds in..... where he turns and walks away from the knife wielder while being attacked.....and then raises his back foot without looking and can kick the knife out of the attackers hand. that was the best part. then i stopped watching.......
 
jbmonkey said:
the part 5minutes and 31 seconds in..... where he turns and walks away from the knife wielder while being attacked.....and then raises his back foot without looking and can kick the knife out of the attackers hand. that was the best part. then i stopped watching.......
Click to expand...
I stopped right at 5 minutes, so I missed that unfortunately.

Back to Cold Steel, I don't have any self defense exclusive knives, but I have to say I'm interested in the upcoming Talon. Ticks a good number of boxes.
 
I learned my martial arts knife defense from Clint:

"There's nothin' like a nice piece of hickory."
 
A long stick is probably the closest thing there is to a knife defence, because it gives you range. However the simple truth is that "knife defence" only comes into play if you survive the unexpected attack, and getting a blow to the face followed by a few rapid thrusts to the belly is more than most people can cope with.

Avoiding circumstances and people who might want to kill you seems to be the best option.
 
Well that's fairly obvious advice...stay away from bad people and places. And I'll add....try not to be surprised. Realistically, that isn't always an option. Amazing how oblivious people can be, even in a dicey areas. My point was... try to have something in your hand when an attack does occur. I walk with a cane anyhow, and unexpected attack or not, I feel a whole lot better with my Blackthorn stick or the cane I made from a sledge hammer handle. As has been mentioned, blade attacks seldom disable a person instantly and, not being without a considerable amount of experience and training myself, I think I might be able to knock out a considerable number of teeth, or break some elbows and knees in the 30 seconds before I drop dead. Or not. ;') Like everything else....it depends. LOL
 
Well, and I emphasize that I mean no offense to anyone, I am not willing to walk around day-to-day with a cane. I am 21 years old and in reasonable health, and using a cane would cause far more unneeded and unnecessary interest than carrying a knife for self defense. A cane is as visible as can be, a pocket knife (even a big one, by the standards of the multitude) is relatively easy to be concealed and, most importantly, accepted in more places and by more people than firearm carry.

I do not support or condone that fact, it is just a fact of the social climate in which I live.
 
ALLHSS said:
I forced myself to watch 5 minutes of that Krav Maga video. It was tough. If the attacker (man with knife) had any, including a normal adult male, level of strength the defender's (man without knife) techniques would be far less than effective. In many of the techniques a stronger grip on the knife would have resulted in severe cuts to the defender, if not total failure to disarm the attacker. In all the techniques I watched a mediocre knowledge of body movement and grappling would have nullified the disarming techniques.

I don't know the demonstrator's credentials. Maybe he is a seasoned, decorated Israeli military operator and I have no place to say what I've said. I also know that the wrestling, and relatively small amount of knife and boxing training, I have would allow me to counter the defenses he showed in the first 5 minutes. If I am right then those techniques are ineffective.
Click to expand...

Again, best defense is to distance yourself and GTFO.
 
ALLHSS said:
Well, and I emphasize that I mean no offense to anyone, I am not willing to walk around day-to-day with a cane. I am 21 years old and in reasonable health, and using a cane would cause far more unneeded and unnecessary interest than carrying a knife for self defense. A cane is as visible as can be, a pocket knife (even a big one, by the standards of the multitude) is relatively easy to be concealed and, most importantly, accepted in more places and by more people than firearm carry.

I do not support or condone that fact, it is just a fact of the social climate in which I live.
Click to expand...

I totally understand, and I wasn't for a moment suggesting that you, or anyone, should carry a cane. Simply describing MY situation. In addition to a cane, I also carry, on a daily basis,
a large CS Recon 1.
I'm 69 years old, but most punks would likely wish they'd picked a different old codger to harass. LOL
 
I think there are some pretty smart people on this board. People get the seriousness of the situation when going unarmed against a knife. I give myself less than a 10% chance of successfully defending myself unarmed against a committed attacker with a knife. The disparity of force is that bad.

It is good to know what your limits are.

All the prison and real life knife attacks catch the victim by complete surprise.
 
ichor said:
I totally understand, and I wasn't for a moment suggesting that you, or anyone, should carry a cane. Simply describing MY situation. In addition to a cane, I also carry, on a daily basis,
a large CS Recon 1.
I'm 69 years old, but most punks would likely wish they'd picked a different old codger to harass. LOL
Click to expand...
Nice! 👍 Always good when someone doesn't take old age as a reason to be helpless, gives me hope for myself at your age 😉
 
I've enjoyed CS AUS8A as much as the next guy, however I think it was a wise move by CS spicing things up a bit with newer, better performing steels, better blade coatings and more steel options in their lineup. I also agree with several posters in this thread that I'd like to see them focus some efforts on fit and finish as well. I'm anxious to get my hands on a CS XHP blade.
 
So, first of all that was not a video of Krav Maga techniques. It is a video of Russian Systema that is titled as Krav Maga. The techniques displayed in the video are diametrically opposed to the KM that most Israelis get in their basic training. If you want to see what KM really looks like there are plenty of videos out there. It is a simple system that focuses on aggressiveness and tenacity.

To say that something like Krav is fantasy based is completely false. It is the antithesis of a fantasy based and the average Israeli soldier gets a couple of weeks of hand-to-hand training that needs to give them skills to survive. When you know how to train, you can do techniques and drills against a resisting opponent. Will it ever be a full fight to the death? Of course not, but you can train absolutely train it for real world effectiveness. As far as boxers, yes they are extremely tough. Yes, it sucks to fight them (I have) but there is a difference between a jab or cross than a palm to the nose. Different worlds. Boxing is an excellent background to get into other combative systems though.

Yep, I feel better now. :)
 
So....CS upgrades a steel, and yes it is an upgrade, and people start losing their minds....to my knowledge most of these knives haven't hit the market in full force yet.. Maybe a bit early to swear off the brand over a change like this.....

First of all....CS does make affordable knives and stays in competition with other brands like BM, Spyderco, KAI, Etc... they have been competing for a while now with folders ranging from $50-$500 (this is not an exact number just an estimate), so in doing so they cover the market and market to different price points which is good for everyone.

Secondly, due to other brands trying new steels CS has decided to follow suit and change things up a bit as well and upgrade from AUS8 to CTS-XHP...this doesn't mean that Aus8 is a bad steel in fact it's a great steel, I've had and still have 1 or 2 of their knives offered in Aus8 and for a knife made to be used and beaten on it has served me well. That being said when the market starts to trend a certain way companies will follow in order to sell more, they will do so in a way that tries to keep costs down for them and hopefully the consumer as well in order to still maintain and increase sales (basic economics). So yes the price has gone up but realistically most people here are quoting prices direct from CS and not other places like BladeHQ etc. the difference is almost double. For example look at one of the most popular sellers, A full sized recon 1 spearpoint. CS direct: $169.99, BladeHQ: $94.95
so people saying that the price has doubled...you may need to become better shoppers. Realistically the price has only jumped from $72.95 to $94.95 according to a BladeHQ price for the sold out Aus8 models. That's $22, yes that is more money but you are getting a steel that performs better hence calling it an upgrade. You can argue that Aus8 was great and you loved, fine but that's preference, when something performs better than an alternative it will cost more because it is considered better. Yes you can tell the difference in overall performance between steels if you actually use your knife. I've resharpened my Aus8 mini recon1 way more than almost any other knife I own.

And finally for some people that have said that this will increase prices for them in other countries...Well that's just tough luck. That isn't really cold steels fault and it's exactly the way it was before, you just end up paying a few extra bucks because they increased price across the board. That's more of a political problem in your area. Not trying to be insensitive, just pointing out that that has nothing to do with CS.

PS....martial arts and self defense have nothing to do with the price hike on CS knives...Off topic much?
Sky pilot, Dave hunnicutt, yepimonfire, maybe stick to the topic instead of branching out with videos? theres discussion threads for those
 
Last edited:
levs18 said:
So, first of all that was not a video of Krav Maga techniques. It is a video of Russian Systema that is titled as Krav Maga. The techniques displayed in the video are diametrically opposed to the KM that most Israelis get in their basic training. If you want to see what KM really looks like there are plenty of videos out there. It is a simple system that focuses on aggressiveness and tenacity.

To say that something like Krav is fantasy based is completely false. It is the antithesis of a fantasy based and the average Israeli soldier gets a couple of weeks of hand-to-hand training that needs to give them skills to survive. When you know how to train, you can do techniques and drills against a resisting opponent. Will it ever be a full fight to the death? Of course not, but you can train absolutely train it for real world effectiveness. As far as boxers, yes they are extremely tough. Yes, it sucks to fight them (I have) but there is a difference between a jab or cross than a palm to the nose. Different worlds. Boxing is an excellent background to get into other combative systems though.

Yep, I feel better now. :)
Click to expand...

How many people have you hit full force with your palm to the nose? I have seen Krav. It requires a compliant partner to accept the technique. The techniques are never fully implemented or tested at full speed against a resisting partner. Therefore, it is a fantasy based art.
 
If I recall the story correctly, a while back there was moves to stop IDF trainees learning combatives because their mothers didn't want them getting injured.

As Marc MacYoung puts it, the effectiveness of Krav Maga (and any other fighting system or martial art) depends. It depends on who is teaching it, and what they are teaching it for.

In Marc's words.

In the mid 1980s I had a chance to work out with a former Israeli Commando. Putting it mildly, this guy made me squeak. He moved me into positions that not only I couldn't fight back from, but, if he'd zapped me, I would have shattered. Not break, shattered. This stuff was not to inflict pain, it was to injure and kill. And to do it A.S.A.P..

This was Krav Maga and it was effective.

Fast forward 20 years and all of a sudden this 'Israeli Commando Fighting System' hit the martial arts scene. Wowie! Kazowie! This is SOOOOO dangerous that your dick will grow three inches from just walking in the door. Okay, so that's an over-exaggeration. What isn't is the attitude of: It's got to be good, because the Israeli military teaches it to all of their service men and women. (Notice the subtle downgrading already happening? It went from commando to service men in nearly the same sentence.)

When I saw what these guys were doing I thought to myself "What the hell? That don't look nothing like what made me squeak."

What it looked like was the typical muay Thai/boxing blend with BJJ thrown in that I think of when someone says 'mixed martial arts.' Yet it's a deadly Israeli military fighting style dontcha know?

Well except the dude who twisted me around never threw a muay Thai kick at me. Come to think of it, he wasn't really hot to roll around on the ground with me either. His intent was to break me in half by pile-driving me INTO the ground; it wasn't to get dirty by rolling around on it while trying to dominate me.
Click to expand...

I've learned a little of Western style combatives (Fairburn/Applegate style), enough to know that I don't want to know any more about them. They're not designed for civilians to use against each other, they were literally designed for people whose job is to kill people. Someone whose training tells them, "if you have to search a captured enemy, kill them in order to make the search more convenient". That is not something that civilians should be learning.

Krav Maga as taught to the aforementioned commando is a combative. What is taught to regular IDF, and in schools outside Israel, is a martial art, to an extent specifically designed to allow the young testosterone fueled soldiers to fight without seriously injuring each other. Not something I'd trust my life to in conflict with an armed opponent.
 
Here is the most important concept about martial arts you will ever read:

Unless you have done a technique full speed on multiple fully resisting opponent multiple times, you can not depend on it in real life. It is just an unproven theory. This is why combat sports are superior to the so called hyper deadly martial arts.

All sorts of things look deadly and super cool. But, they just don't work in real life. Fairburn / Applegate is no different.
 
mrnotsam123 said:
So....CS upgrades a steel, and yes it is an upgrade, and people start losing their minds....<snip>
Click to expand...

I think most are startled at the price increases both the MSRP and the actuals. Now I think the purchase prices will continually drop once the initial fervor diminishes. I think what folks are complaining about hasn't been written up very well. So I'll give my take.

I think the issue to most folks is the incremental cost increase. The way most folks think (IMHO) is that they appreciate a very good knife design, but find a very few simple flaws (in their mind). They think to themselves... if only x and y were fixed this knife would be perfect! How much could it cost to fix these two things?

For most CS designs the flaws are (1) the damn Triad spring is too strong, (2) the damn pocked clip is too strong, and (3) the blade steel is good not great. Items (1) and (2) could be fixed (and should be fixed) with no additional manufacturing cost. Item (3) will cost more in material and more cost to manufacture the blade, because the steel would be harder to work. However, no additional assembly labor would be required.

So the big pink elephant in the room is how much more does it cost Cold Steel per blade to switch to CTS-XHP, and to some degree how much would you be willing to pay for it? CS was making great knives out of AUS8 and real cost to us was $40-$60, right? Included in that real cost is blade cost, handle and misc part costs, assembly labor, packaging, shipping, overhead, and profit. The only thing that should change is the blade cost (OK maybe increased profit). How much do you thing the AUS8 blade cost is? $10? It can't be much more than that if they can sell knives in the $30-40 range for a profit. So how much more should a better blade cost? 20% more, 30% more? 50% more? What about double, $20?

I'm guessing the AUS8 blade cost might be $10/knife and profit might be $5/knife. I would have no trouble rationalizing paying twice as much for the blade and doubling CS's profit for a better knife. So, i think the new models should be no more than $15 more than before. But, I also think that these new models shouldn't have the overly strong lock springs and pocket clips. I just can't see paying $85 for a 3" mini Recon 1. I might as well just buy a Benchmade Mini Griptillian with an axis lock.
 
Dave Hunnicutt said:
How many people have you hit full force with your palm to the nose? I have seen Krav. It requires a compliant partner to accept the technique. The techniques are never fully implemented or tested at full speed against a resisting partner. Therefore, it is a fantasy based art.
Click to expand...

2 people. They both went down. You don't need to kill or maim somebody to know how to do it in real life, you do need somebody that knows how to train it. There is a big difference. If I only shoot at targets, does that mean I can't shoot a person? Of course it doesn't. Do you think every Ranger, SEAL, or Marine has killed someone? Your ability to use a gun in real life depends on the training you get associated with it. This is true for martial arts as well. Don't confuse poor training and poor teaches with a poor system.

Also, don't confuse what is taught to house-wives in a shopping center in America with what is taught to men and women fighting for their country. There are different levels of everything. A commando/special unit operator gets more training than a standard combat unit soldier but all of them get more than something to get out "testosterone." Honestly that is an impressively ignorant statement. On the other hand, if the entire world thinks that the Israeli army is only a way for rambunctious teens to deal with the aforementioned testosterine, it's better for them.

I don't do KM and I am not a soldier but I do train and I do teach, including military and LEOs. With the popularity of MMA, I hate to see what are often referred to as "traditional martial arts" thought of as being fantasy or ineffective. There is a ton of BS out there in the martial art world, especially on the Internet, but those are most often the practitioners and not the validity of the system.

The more salient point is that this is all completely off-topic. I appologize and I am done. I'm very much looking forward to picking up a large Recon 1 in CTS-XHP. Both the steel and new DLC coating excite me.
 
levs18 said:
The more salient point is that this is all completely off-topic. I appologize and I am done. I'm very much looking forward to picking up a large Recon 1 in CTS-XHP. Both the steel and new DLC coating excite me.
Click to expand...

You should save your breath anyway, levs. After reading the 30 some odd posts from Hunnicutt, it's clear that he knows practically anything worth knowing about....well, any subject you care to mention, and the chance of convincing him that he is wrong, Or changing his mind, is about the same as being struck by lightening while, simultaneously, being attacked by a shark. LOL
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top