I was afraid this would happen with the new steels CS is using...

I have trained with guys in the military and police. If they have any serious skills, they got them on the own. They are not trained well in hand to hand fighting in the military. They get an introduction and some refresher classes. That's it.

All systems are not equal. Some will get you hurt. Systema and Krav are good examples of ones that build false confidence. Why? Because the set up, opportunity, timing, distance, amount of force, counters, counters to counters, sensitivity, and speed of the deadly ninja techniques can only be simulated with a compliant partner. The hyper deadly techniques would hurt, maim, or kill if you actually did them. So, you never really get to practice all the aspects of the things that make the technique work. In fact, you can only practice a small fraction of all the attributes necessary to make the technique work. So, the only thing you can do is hope it will work when you need it. Hope is a bad strategy.

If you want to pretend and hope, take Krav.
 
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I was afraid this would happen with the new steels CS is using...

Bushido185 said:
Along with the rest of their lineup, the new CS Mini Lawman has gone up in price by 55% with the new CTS XHP steel offering. $90 retail with Aus 8.... $140 retail with CTS XHP. Naturally these will be available at less than retail, but it seems a bit ridiculous to increase the price by that much. The Mini Lawman was one of the first knives I bought when I began collecting, mainly because of the price. I'm just not convinced CS has made a sound decision on this venture into changing steels.
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The Original Poster was concerned that prices would change considerably with the new steel.

I was concerned that as soon as somebody mentioned "Lynn Thompson" and "Mall Ninja" in the same sentence, the thread would devolve into a bunch of pseudo martial artists posturing as the end-all-be-all of deadly arts practitioners, boldly decrying somebody else's martial art as 'fantasy'.

It appears my concern was well founded.

I, for one, hope that CS continues to offer models in both AUS-8 and the newer CTS XHP for choices.
 
^naw that didn't happen. ;)

I still like that krav move where the guy walks away and back kicks the knife out of the person hand without looking. I chuckle everytime i see it.

Ive seen a lot of bar fights and plenty of stabbings and such with these swamp folks down here that live to fight. Seen people stomped to near death over nothing. Never seen someone walk away from a knife attacker and back kick the knife though. That is some serious kung fu stuff there. That there made the entire kung fu conversations well worth it.

Agree on the aus8 staying around in some knives.
 
I'm still not getting the price complain with the new steel CS released. I think maybe most people complaining haven't bought other brand of knives? Im sure they are a lot of die-hard CS fans here who hasn't used anything other brand, that's good, but we should look at the market as a whole. This is a very competitive market, not a monopoly.

To put things in perspective, i recently have a big knife shopping spree(bought XHP code 4, XHP Recon 1, Tilite, XHP Lawman, Ultimate hunter & another Benchmade). I was thinking maybe i should buy all the other ZT and Benchmade knives that i've always wanted, so i did a little bit of shopping and thinking but found that for the price of a knife, i get to buy multiple CS knives that has better options. Here are the comparisons:

ZT0562 - About $200. Elmax and titanium framelock may be more expensive, but CS has stronger lock with comparable XHP steel, with 1/2 price
ZT0560 - About $240 for the latest version with the steel insert on the lockbar. Older version can be found at around 200
ZT030X - About $210. CPM S30V, recently tested against AK-47 for lock strength and lost.

Now, here is what i got for about 200 bucks instead:
XHP Recon 1 & BD-1 Voyager & BD-1 Rajah - All for $203 from a popular seller in a popular shopping website that gives 5% discount if you buy 2 knives or more.
Instead of getting a ZT0562, i bought 3 CS knives for the same price. Rajah 3(8.3 inches) is about the same size as ZT0562. Voyager(9.25 inches) and Recon 1(9.3 inches) is bigger.
Sure, they are all made in TW, that could determine the price difference, but you can't immediately dismiss the quality. Also, all 3 knives have superior lock strength, and one of them has comparable steel.
By the way, you can also get both XHP Recon 1 and XHP American Lawman for about $185 - $190, slightly less than the price for any of the ZT knives above.

Let's also look at some Benchmade knives:
710 - About $150. D2 steel, classic, for the same price i can buy a recon 1 with similar length, and better steel, plus a voyager/rajah 3, and i may still have some spare change.
HK 14715 - About $96. Benchmade's most valued knife IMO, came out in 2014. D2 steel, almost the same size and price as the new XHP American Lawman. But Lawman has Triad lock, and arguably better steel, and better DLC coating.
Adamas(275) - About $150. D2 steel, a beast. Very good price IMO, and the only one that could give CS a run for it's money. However, compare that to a Recon 1, Recon 1 has longer blade, XHP steel, DLC coating and possibly stronger lock for less than 100 bucks. Again, i can buy multiple CS with for the price of an Adamas(like a Recon 1 and a Voyager), and i can actually carry each one. Adamas is way too thick(0.73 inches thick) and unwieldy, 8 ounces compacted in less than 9 inches of knife.
 
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mrnotsam123 said:
PS....martial arts and self defense have nothing to do with the price hike on CS knives...Off topic much?
Sky pilot, Dave hunnicutt, yepimonfire, maybe stick to the topic instead of branching out with videos? theres discussion threads for those
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+1

Would be nice if the discussions can stay relevant to the thread.
 
hkyew, I could sit here and discuss reasons why I would make different selections than you, but I'm not gonna.

You, my friend, have utilized the free market and its myriad of choices to make a multi-knife purchase that gives YOU true value.

Bravo, mister.
 
Velitrius said:
hkyew, I could sit here and discuss reasons why I would make different selections than you, but I'm not gonna.

You, my friend, have utilized the free market and its myriad of choices to make a multi-knife purchase that gives YOU true value.

Bravo, mister.
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Yeah my friend i definitely understood the reasons behind choosing otherwise. I almost pulled the trigger on that ZT0562 and the classic 710. I'm still craving it to be honest.

However I'm pragmatic and I bet i'm one of few people that keep a google sheets metric on all the knives i own/planning to buy & rank them based on a few criteria that are important to me. I usually work through the list top to bottom if i plan to buy knives to ensure that i get the best one first per my criteria. I also look at the list whenever i feel like making an impulse purchase(like the new Protech-Strider collaboration). Sometime the matrix gives me a pretty good idea of whether to buy it or to spend on something else. It has successfully negated a lot of buyer's remorse moment for me, as it's common when making an impulse purchase just because i really wanted something for a moment.

Of course sometimes you have to follow your heart, like getting a Sebenza, as you can't really quantify pride of ownership or aesthetic etc. However everything has trade-off and in this case, i can't get over missing 3 newly released CS models for a ZT.
 
Understood... so let me ask you this:

Have the new offerings changed up your list as far as better steel or higher price-point?

For instance, in my book, I'll pick up a 4" Ti-Lite in AUS-8 for $70 no problem. On the other hand, if it's only offered in CTS XHP and I have to spend $140 on one, it drops down on my list quite a ways. I'm not going to work this knife in such a manner that I need a super steel upgrade, so AUS-8 is just fine with me.

Now there are other knives that I wouldn't pick up in AUS-8, but now that the steel choice is more amenable to holding an edge and taking a beating, they move up on the list of "gotta haves".

Just wondering how much the new line-up is shaking things up for buyers like us.
 
Velitrius said:
Understood... so let me ask you this:

Have the new offerings changed up your list as far as better steel or higher price-point?

For instance, in my book, I'll pick up a 4" Ti-Lite in AUS-8 for $70 no problem. On the other hand, if it's only offered in CTS XHP and I have to spend $140 on one, it drops down on my list quite a ways.
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Where are you shopping? Looking at Knifecenter-, the 4'' Ti-Lite in XHP is $83.95
 
DShiflet... "D" stand for "Deck"? If so, one of my favorite literary characters.

I was using CS MSRP from their home page as a point of discussion, really. But your retail example still follows my point. Yep, the Ti-Lite in the new steel is $83.95, but the old one in AUS-8 from KC is $44.95. If I was a guy who had the Ti-Lite on his list to buy at $45-ish, and all of a sudden it was $85-ish, maybe that one drops down the list a bit.

I personally have zero problem with the new steel or the new price. I was following with the nature of the OP's thread on how the new line-up was affecting the buying habits of those of us with a sharp-stuff fetish.

Thanks for bringing a dose of "Street-Price" vs "MSRP" though. You are right, in discussion I should use real pricing probably, but I figured that the numbers from CS website were justifiable for the sake of argument if nothing else.
 
DShiflet said:
Where are you shopping? Looking at Knifecenter-, the 4'' Ti-Lite in XHP is $83.95
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They're comparing cold steel MSRP for the new models vs online retailers like bladehq and knife center for the old models. That's about half of the flaws in this...people aren't comparing pricing that's apples to apples so to speak.

Also I believe aus8 prices recently dropped BECAUSE of the new XHP models. To my knowledge most aus8 versions were slightly more expensive till now. Economics people...simple economics
 
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Velitrius said:
Understood... so let me ask you this:

Have the new offerings changed up your list as far as better steel or higher price-point?

For instance, in my book, I'll pick up a 4" Ti-Lite in AUS-8 for $70 no problem. On the other hand, if it's only offered in CTS XHP and I have to spend $140 on one, it drops down on my list quite a ways. I'm not going to work this knife in such a manner that I need a super steel upgrade, so AUS-8 is just fine with me.

Now there are other knives that I wouldn't pick up in AUS-8, but now that the steel choice is more amenable to holding an edge and taking a beating, they move up on the list of "gotta haves".

Just wondering how much the new line-up is shaking things up for buyers like us.
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Some of the new models with CTS steel definitely changed my list a little bit. But as you mentioned, it depends on use cases. For example, I just bought the AUS8 ti-lite instead of the XHP one because i know that this model needs toughness more than extra wear resistance. Ti-lite is definitely not used for jobs that need the extra wear resistance of XHP(I still don't know why CS is doing XHP for this model TBH), and because of the narrow profile, it has higher tendency to snap if more brittle steel is used. XHP makes sense if CS makes the blade stock thicker. Relationship between material thickness vs flexural strength here - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexural_strength#Measuring_flexural_strength

However for the other "utility" models like Lawman/Code4/Recon1/AK47, they definitely rose to the top of my list. They have already proven their worth to me during my most recently move where the new XHP Lawman shredded at least 3X more boxes(the Homedepot XL box) than the AUS8A version before needing to be stropped. Another bonus is the DLC coating, not for coolness factor, but for its surprising durability for its thinness. I like DLC coating just like how others like ZT's KVT ball bearing, personal preference here.

Despite the price jump, price vs performance is still good(XHP Code 4 is less than $80 vs AUS 8A ~$60, BD1 Voyager LG ~$50 vs $35 for AUS 8A etc). Since aesthetic and country of origin is not part of my evaluation criteria, the choice is simple, i simply go for the one that gives me the most out of my $$ after comparing similar options.

BTW, probably a unrelated topic regarding outsourcing, we should look at both perspectives:
http://money.cnn.com/2012/09/14/news/economy/outsourcing-jobs/
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB107525219024013636
http://www.forbes.com/sites/modeledbehavior/2013/01/16/is-outsourcing-american-jobs-wrong/
 
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Velitrius said:
DShiflet... "D" stand for "Deck"? If so, one of my favorite literary characters.

I was using CS MSRP from their home page as a point of discussion, really. But your retail example still follows my point. Yep, the Ti-Lite in the new steel is $83.95, but the old one in AUS-8 from KC is $44.95. If I was a guy who had the Ti-Lite on his list to buy at $45-ish, and all of a sudden it was $85-ish, maybe that one drops down the list a bit.

I personally have zero problem with the new steel or the new price. I was following with the nature of the OP's thread on how the new line-up was affecting the buying habits of those of us with a sharp-stuff fetish.

Thanks for bringing a dose of "Street-Price" vs "MSRP" though. You are right, in discussion I should use real pricing probably, but I figured that the numbers from CS website were justifiable for the sake of argument if nothing else.
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No, D stands for Daniel. And the thing is, the Ti-Lite dropped in price because of the new models. It actually wasn't $44.95 until the XHP models were released, prior to that it was closer to $60...
 
These prices are OK, if you don't have much patience. I have 2 dozen or so CS products, from Bowies to machetes, but their "sale" prices have always left me ..umm...unenthused. Over time, by keeping eyes open on knife forums, Amazon, eBay, whatever, I've always beaten sale prices from Cold Steel ( or any other brand for that matter.) by SUBSTANTIAL margins. YMMV
 
I have to agree with the last few years of various Cold Steel factory sales not being so great regarding good deals.

This year there are some really great prices—even lower than Amazon!
 
Well, I perused it and saw nothing exciting. Maybe I'll look a little more carefully. Nothing ruins my day more quickly or thoroughly than missing a killer deal that was right in front of my nose. ;')
 
I agree, CS's sales are not much of a sales IMO. *Unless the conspiracy is true that they really keep the best Fit & Finish for themselves*. In that case, it may be worth it.
Otherwise you can get great deal from Amazon/Ebay. Some seller even provide discounts or coupons for more savings.
 
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