I'd like to make a sword.

Daniel Fairly Knives

Daniel Fairly Knives

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I like to make a sword eventually, not just yet, but I like to start research early. This isn't for the Renaissance fair, I want a real sword! :D I'm going to try something very basic at first, no gaurd or anything, maybe something like a simplified wakizashi. Any insight on a good simple starting design would be much appreciated. I'm a stock removal guy by the way.

So far the best tip I got was from Sam Salvati, He told me to try 100 knives first. I think that is great advice, when I get to #100 I want to be ready! :D

I'm always reading about this topic but I have some specific questions I can't find answers for yet. Sorry if this is kind of basic, I have read a lot of contradictory information about this subject.


1. Are there any air hardening steels that would be good for a sword? I seem to find a lot of misleading information about this subject. I would have a lot more options when sending it off for heat treat.

2. Where can I send a sword for heat treat? I plan on using 5160 steel. (edit: maybe A2)

3. How did your sword come out of heat treat?

4. Can you chisel grind a sword and have it come out of heat treat straight? Is it likely? I have heard that katanas get their shape because the spine bends during quench. Does the type of steel used influence this?

5. Grinding tips? Lock the elbows and sway really far? :D

Thanks!
 
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Also what do ya'll think about A2 for a sword?
 
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I did my 1st one and only out of D-2 , it was modeled after the movie Steel Dawn . 31" long. Paul Bos did the heat treat for me , he had a 32" length limit. It was a real chore .
 
If you want this to be a real sword forget about thick. Think thin and light. You can also forget about the chisel grind, why would you want a sword that cuts crooked?
Del
 
ONeill said:
I did my 1st one and only out of D-2 , it was modeled after the movie Steel Dawn . 31" long. Paul Bos did the heat treat for me , he had a 32" length limit. It was a real chore .
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I just googled it and found your old thread. Cool! I bet it was tough.

delbert ealy said:
If you want this to be a real sword forget about thick. Think thin and light. You can also forget about the chisel grind, why would you want a sword that cuts crooked?
Del
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I was wondering if a 1/4" spine was way too much. I'm thinking 1/8" to 3/16" for most swords. I doubt I'd find any 5160 that thin, maybe I can go with A2 as I'm a stock removal guy.

I didn't realize it would cut crooked that way, that wouldn't be any good. Great point!

Thanks Oneill and Delbert I really appreciate it.
 
Daniel Fairly Knives said:
4. Can you chisel grind a sword and have it come out of heat treat straight? Is it likely? I have heard that katanas get their shape because the spine bends during quench. Does the type of steel used influence this?

Thanks!
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The Katanas get there shape because of the way they harden them. With the use of the clay they are hardening the edge more then the spine, thus the hamon. They also have a soft core to them.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Zech
 
I think A2 would be good, 3V would be awesome*. Peters' HT will do air-hardening steels up to 44", and also oil-hardening steels, but only up to 20". I guess that's the biggest quench tank they have?

*edit: sorry, I meant AWESOME! :)
 
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Southclaw said:
The Katanas get there shape because of the way they harden them. With the use of the clay they are hardening the edge more then the spine, thus the hamon. They also have a soft core to them.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Zech
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That makes a lot of sense! I won't be going for a hamon just yet; the steels I want to use won't make one anyways. :)

Thanks Zach!
 
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james terrio said:
I think A2 would be good, 3V would be awesome. Peters' HT will do air-hardening steels up to 44", and also oil-hardening steels, but only up to 20". I guess that's the biggest quench tank they have?
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I hadn't even thought about 3v. That would be nice. Hopefully by the time I'm ready I'll have made some 3v knives to see if I like it, sounds like tough stuff. (to finish and for whacking stuff)

Great idea, I'll have to consider both now. Thanks James!

edit: I just priced out some CPM-3V, that may be the way to go, it sounds very good and it is a great price for what it is. For some reason I thought it was one of the exotic stainless steels. Thanks again!
 
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What are the main factors in Sword design? I understand there are many factors, I'm just curious about the main factors.
 
12345678910 said:
If you send it out, Peters does oil hardening, but the length limit is too short to do what I call a sword.


This video is made for just the project you describe.
http://www.paladin-press.com/product/Katana/Sword_Guides_and_Making
http://smartflix.com/store/video/2253/Katana-A-Modern-Craftsmans-Guide-To-Making-A-Japanese-Sword
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That looks like a great video. The rental place is an awesome idea, I noticed it recommended some other interesting knife making videos too! I might have to watch that this evening. Thanks Count!


james terrio said:
Naw, just polish it up before HT. Comes back from Peters' clean as a whistle, just a little temper color to polish away.
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OK, that sounds real good. Thanks again James.
 
Was Sam's advice about 100 knives first about forging or swordmaking in general? I always figured forging it would be a pain, but grinding bevels wouldn't be that tough.

SAM! Are you making forging hammers for sale yet? I have a stump for my anvil now.
 
zaph1 said:
Was Sam's advice about 100 knives first about forging or swordmaking in general? I always figured forging it would be a pain, but grinding bevels wouldn't be that tough.

SAM! Are you making forging hammers for sale yet? I have a stump for my anvil now.
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Zaph1,
It was just something he mentioned in chat, what I got out of it was that is was tough, not to be taken lightly. But hey it was just in chat, I thought he made a really great point though.

Carl_First_Timer said:
What are the main factors in Sword design? I understand there are many factors, I'm just curious about the main factors.
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Good question!


It's snowing here!
 
I did an A2 knife, and it turned out darned hard. So hard that I wouldn't trust it for a sword. I gave it a soft-back draw, but even so, I would stay away from A2 if you plan to send it out for heat treat.

The Japanese smiths used basically a straight carbon steel; it got a hamon because it was shallow-hardening. The Chromium in 5160 will keep you from getting such a bold hamon. And as for the shape, since they clay-coated the back, the edge was quenched to martensite and, being less dense than the back, it expanded and gave the swords their curve.

OK, steel rant over.

If you want a good sword without the hamon, I would go for 5160. The Chromium will make it nice and tough (5150 is a good axe steel for its toughness and impact resistance).

And don't be afraid to use it at 1/4 inch. I prefer my big bowies at least that thick. If you give it a distal taper to lighten it at the tip, the weight won't be so bad and it will be nice and tough at the ricasso.

As for chisel grinding, I would never buy a sword (or make a knife) with a chisel grind. The aerodynamics and fluid dynamics will push it to one side and throw off the aim when you are swinging it. Try slack-belt grinding it to a zero edge like they did to the real thing. It will be a great edge and plenty tough.

Second rant over.

Hope that helps.
 
As we all know, Sam is a blacksmith. Awake, asleep, eating, cooking, he is always a blacksmith. I would think at least 100 knives experience forging for a sword would make sense. Stock removal might be a different story, although some think 100 is the minimum experience to make anything, swords, folders, chopsticks, etc.
 
seth2915 said:
I did an A2 knife, and it turned out darned hard. So hard that I wouldn't trust it for a sword. I gave it a soft-back draw, but even so, I would stay away from A2 if you plan to send it out for heat treat.

Interesting, I guess it can't be tempered to the correct hardness without some great loss? I'll have to look into this.

The Japanese smiths used basically a straight carbon steel; it got a hamon because it was shallow-hardening. The Chromium in 5160 will keep you from getting such a bold hamon. And as for the shape, since they clay-coated the back, the edge was quenched to martensite and, being less dense than the back, it expanded and gave the swords their curve.

Cool! I figured they used something along the lines of 1060-1095, whatever you get out of black sand and hematite, lol.

The clay effecting the shape makes sense, for some reason I originally thought it was to do with thickness. :)
OK, steel rant over.

If you want a good sword without the hamon, I would go for 5160. The Chromium will make it nice and tough (5150 is a good axe steel for its toughness and impact resistance).

And don't be afraid to use it at 1/4 inch. I prefer my big bowies at least that thick. If you give it a distal taper to lighten it at the tip, the weight won't be so bad and it will be nice and tough at the ricasso.

As for chisel grinding, I would never buy a sword (or make a knife) with a chisel grind. The aerodynamics and fluid dynamics will push it to one side and throw off the aim when you are swinging it. Try slack-belt grinding it to a zero edge like they did to the real thing. It will be a great edge and plenty tough.

Second rant over.

Hope that helps.
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Thanks for the input and help Seth, I appreciate it!
 
Personally, I would come at this from a different direction. A real sword is a killing tool, plain and simple... meant to take the life of another human being in the quickest, most efficient way possible. Study up on swords from a user's perspective rather than a knifemaker's. How they were used, and what was expected of them in the field. Most knifemakers view the sword as just a big knife. Not so. Sure, you can make a big knife, machete or SSO (sword shaped object) that will cut tatami mats and hanging meat... but they will be very different from the swords that evolved from battle. I'm not telling you to seek training as a swordsman... read up, visit museums.... look at as many authentic swords (and accurate, period reproductions) as you can and study their build.

Rick
 
zaph1 said:
Stock removal might be a different story...
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Maybe not; I have enough trouble keeping a 10" straight and even. I haven't attempted grinding anything bigger than that.

JT - sparkmaker ;)
 
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