Idealism and Survivalism

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blazink

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I brought up Christopher McCandless in another thread and then decided to google search (:rolleyes:annoying) the site for mention of him. Almost nothing came up.
No matter what you think of him, McCandless story is undeniably interesting and should be studied by any who fancy themselves a survivalist. Be warned that objectivity is difficult with Krakaur inserting himself into the book and Sean Penn putting him on a pedestal.

Also, check out the story of Timothy Treadwell. In my opinion he is just about the craziest SOB that ever wandered into the bush. It was especially tragic because he got someone else killed along with himself.

You can castigate these guys for their attitudes and questionable mental health, but they were both admirable for chasing their dreams. Has even one of the thousands of people on this forum ever tested themselves in a manner that could be compared with these stories?
 
I was quite inspired my Mccandless's story and think he did an amazing thing, he never wanted to be famous and a lot of people can't seem to realize that. He did what he did for his own reasons and made many fans along the way, both directly and indirectly.
It makes me wonder if there were others out their who did similar things but were not
thrust into the limelight.
I really can't understand the cynicism some people have for him. The wilderness is not some treacherous, menacing place you have to prepare for years to survive there, of course a lot of knowledge is necessary but I think he could have easily made it, but for a bit of bad luck.
Treadwell, he's another story. He believed strongly in a cause and I respected that, but he was a complete nut, IMHO.
I was just surprised he lived as long as he did.
 
Just to take the other side of this - self-destructive behaviour may be romanticized but it is still costly to everyone else. There are plenty of movies that present the behaviour of drug-abusers as romantic and even admirable - but they still cost society a great deal because they must be taken care of as they fall apart. McCandless was self-destructive and so was Timothy Treadwell - no matter how romantic they may seem. I admire both McCandless and Treadwell in some respects - I also admire some famous drug abusers in some respects. But that admiration doesn't change the fact that these people are a burden on those around them - ultimately they are selfish and shouldn't be considered good role models.

From wiki:

Alaskan Park Ranger Peter Christian wrote: “I am exposed continually to what I will call the ‘McCandless Phenomenon.’ People, nearly always young men, come to Alaska to challenge themselves against an unforgiving wilderness landscape where convenience of access and possibility of rescue are practically nonexistent […] When you consider McCandless from my perspective, you quickly see that what he did wasn’t even particularly daring, just stupid, tragic, and inconsiderate. First off, he spent very little time learning how to actually live in the wild. He arrived at the Stampede Trail without even a map of the area. If he [had] had a good map he could have walked out of his predicament […] Essentially, Chris McCandless committed suicide.”
 
Tagging this for later, a very interesting thread. Time to go do some research ;). I'll post my opinion later.
 
As I said in the other thread, it's not so much McCandless I object to, it's the lionization of him that irks.

He was a wilderness idiot by almost any metric. If he hadn't gotten himself killed, no one would know he existed.

Conflating idiocy with profundity has given the world St. McCandless.

It seems the SAR folks and most locals all had the same low opinion of him. It's been interesting seeing who has romanticized McCandless' misadventure.

While I generally agree that one does not need "years" to acquire wilderness skills to hang out near an abandoned bus for a few months, it helps immensely to be properly equipped and forearmed with some better local knowledge than one botanical book and no map.
 
I lived in Alaska for 8+ years and during that time earned my degree in Journalism (photo to be specific). I had to read Into the Wild for one of the classes. It was very interesting to see the difference of opinion about McCandless between Alaskans and others such as Krakeur. Most Alaskans were of the same opinion as the previously quoted ranger that McCandless was a bit reckless and dumb.

I'm all for those who want to tackle the wild but to do so blindly, with almost no preparation is just asking to get maimed or killed.

Charlie
 
Read the book, thought he was an overconfident ass. He was idealistic, and that's great, but many of his decisions showed a certain lack of common sense (or disdain of it?) which I have no respect for.
 
"but they were both admirable for chasing their dreams. "

So following your dream is admirable, no matter what it is? John Wayne Gacy seems to have followed his dreams too...
 
Timothy Treadwell and McCandless were cut form the same mould, read to much Tolstoy, over romanticized nature and died for their naivete and ignorance. McCandless could have just as easily became an emo kid who painted his eyes black and cut himself, he just choose nature instead.

I have no respect for either one. Chris
 
I don't believe in idealism. I'm just more of a realist. Niether do I find much use for perfection, if there is a difference what so ever.

What a sad story.
 
I'll admit I've felt like getting away from it all once or twice but who hasn't?IMHO what he tried to do was admirable but what he ended up doing wasn't.
 
savagesicslayer said:
I'll admit I've felt like getting away from it all once or twice but who hasn't?IMHO what he tried to do was admirable but what he ended up doing wasn't.
Click to expand...

I agree...I do think that ( no big suprise here ) one should be prepared for an adventure like he embarked on. Gene
 
I think we as humans tend to identify with the human who died doing what they love. Living vicariously through them. Some see McCandless as having the courage to follow his (their) heart. Unfortunately, we also live in an age where wisdom is looked down upon. Children in school are looked down upon for seeming "too" smart, so they dumb themselves down. The general public has now deemed that all people should be equal. Sorry to break it to you, but we are not all equal. Some people are morons. Feeling sorry for them after they die doesn't change that. It is not 'wrong' to disparage stupid behavior, it moves public opinion in the correct direction. The McCandless story romanticizes dumb behavior. If he had simply lost a couple of toes to frostbite, the public opinion would be different, but his behaviors would have been exactly the same. And why do people need to say things like "if your so smart why don't you spend a year in the wilderness?"? Give me a break, I don't need to wrestle a bear to know that jumping into the bear cage at the zoo is a stupid idea.
 
Where are the words like "arrogant" coming from?
How many have actually read the book?
I would imagine hitchhiking to be more dangerous then living in the woods,
noone seems to mind him doing that.
If he had become an accountant working 9 to 5 for the rest of his life
wondering if he was missing something then that would have been a much greater tragedy.
 
I've noticed we tend to get pretty preachy about such folks in these threads. Thing is, people are not always rational beings, sometimes for better, sometimes for worse. I think it's interesting how some of these tragic or heroic stories can have completely opposite outcomes by the tiniest turn of luck.
 
Exactly. Mccandless died from making a mistake, and through no action of his own he was villified and made a "saint" or what have you.
It is not so much the wilderness aspect of Mccandless's journey that was impressive, it was the entire journey he made, He just happened to die in the wilderness, where he went willingly with little supplies, which holds a romanticism for all of us, (Dick Prohenneke is an example of this, he is immensly popular) and therefore the story grabbed our attention immediatley.

Would anyone rant so much about a hiker who ate a poisonous mushroom randomly and died?
Maybe it's because I work in corrections and see some of societies lowest forms day in and day out, that I can't stomach seeing someone like Mccandless being knocked around like this.
 
Liam Ryan said:
Where are the words like "arrogant" coming from?
How many have actually read the book?
I would imagine hitchhiking to be more dangerous then living in the woods,
noone seems to mind him doing that.
If he had become an accountant working 9 to 5 for the rest of his life
wondering if he was missing something then that would have been a much greater tragedy.
Click to expand...

Arrogant comes from the instances when he ignored advice from those who knew better. I also like how he tossed his family aside.

Hitchhiking from my understanding is not nearly as dangerous as we're lead to believe. I know several people who've done it, cross country even.

It is not so much the wilderness aspect of Mccandless's journey that was impressive, it was the entire journey he made, He just happened to die in the wilderness, where he went willingly with little supplies, which holds a romanticism for all of us, (Dick Prohenneke is an example of this, he is immensly popular) and therefore the story grabbed our attention immediatley.

Would anyone rant so much about a hiker who ate a poisonous mushroom randomly and died?
Click to expand...

I will say the "journey" was not all that unique, from my opinion, which is not to say I don't enjoy the story. However, his trip into the wilderness was still reckless, no matter how romantic, and his death could've been avoided.

It's not even relevant to compare him to Dick Proenneke. Dick Proenneke was prepared, skilled, and familiar with the harsh terrain he was going to live in. He did not just wander into the woods believing it would sustain him like McCandles.


As far as his specific cause of death....it's worthless to debate what-if's concerning that. Yes, what if he didn't eat those berries but... What if he'd never found the bus? What if he broke his leg a few miles from the road? What if he got frostbitten feet from the inadequate footwear? ....see where I'm going?
He took a phenomenal risk by going out there unprepared, thought he knew better than everyone else, and got what the odds called.
 
Hitchhiking from my understanding is not nearly as dangerous as we're lead to believe. I know several people who've done it, cross country even.
Click to expand...

This is the interesting thing to me. Being in the wilderness isn't nearly as dangerous as it may seem. There have to be tons of folks who went into the wilderness, by some measure ill prepared, but but simply didn't have the misfortune of eating the wrong thing or encountering the wrong critter. Nobody knows these people because nothing particularly memorable happened to them. I'd venture to say all of us fit into this category to some degree.

And Proenneke could easily have fallen victim to a mundane problem, and we'd be gabbing on this forum wagging our fingers because he didn't have that one extra little piece of gear or bit of knowledge to deal with it.

This is kind of the Travis Bickle syndrome, where someone is determined to be a hero or horror by a mere twist of fate. Someone like Treadwell could easily still be alive today, just as nutty, if only he hadn't encountered that one bear that one time.
 
Horse said:
"but they were both admirable for chasing their dreams. "

So following your dream is admirable, no matter what it is? John Wayne Gacy seems to have followed his dreams too...
Click to expand...

You make a good point and I couldn't agree more.

Josif Stalin followed his dreams, too. And this one guy named Adolf.

Chasing one's dream is only admirable when the dream is of lofty morals, when the dream is reasonable and at least remotely possible. There are many dreams the chasing of which would be nothing short of despicable. Some dreams are simply stupid.

While I don't consider the wilderness in any way inherently more dangerous than the urban human society, fact is there's a different set of laws in the wild, and people that aren't familiar with them, are going to have problems, possibly fatal ones.
 
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