Ideas for a Military 2 (M2)

[singularity35]

If there absolutely have to be changes, then I'd like thicker liners and liner lock arm, bigger pivot and stop pin.

Oh, and 20CP or S90V as the standard steel on production models.

 

[lilbuj]

I carry one of my M4 Militaries all the time as well as my BG-42 military. All I own are the sprints and at some point they will all be used. I just have not brought myself to use the S90V military yet.

 

[Komitadjie]

How about a LEFT HAND military, with a blackened M4 blade and clip to match the grips?

Or, going way out there, how about extending that to some G10s other than black, for instance red-and-black or blue-and-black laminate G10?

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

I think I few changes should be made.

1.) A new locking mechanism. Liner locks are the weakest and easiest lock to disengage. A compression lock or the stop lock would be great.
2.) a shorter handle. When you use the choil there is like and inch or more of unused handle space. Shorten the handle by half and inch.
3.) Reduce the handle swell at the end.
4.) Oversized laynard hole
5.) CTS 20CP

 

[RevDevil]

I think I few changes should be made.

1.) A new locking mechanism. Liner locks are the weakest and easiest lock to disengage. A compression lock or the stop lock would be great.
2.) a shorter handle. When you use the choil there is like and inch or more of unused handle space. Shorten the handle by half and inch.
3.) Reduce the handle swell at the end.
4.) Oversized laynard hole
5.) CTS 20CP

Where did you hear/read that? Is it just personal opinion? Just curious. Keep in mind liner locks as well as any other locks can be engineered as tough as desired without limit. Out of all the liner locks I've ever used, the Military is the one that gets as close to perfect as possible. The knife would probably be destroyed before the lock failed.

 

[Murdamook]

Tell that linerlock factoid to the Gayle Bradley, it doesn't seem to agree with you. I think the military is perfect as is but I haven't seen what Sal & Co. have in mind for a M2, so I can't make that determination at this juncture. I can say that tip-up carry for the Military isn't nearly as practical as tip-down. It would take a bit of manipulation to bring the Military to the correct hand position in order to deploy the blade. Tip-down results in a steady draw and the owner's hand being preset in a good position to deploy the knife.

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

Where did you hear/read that? Is it just personal opinion? Just curious. Keep in mind liner locks as well as any other locks can be engineered as tough as desired without limit. Out of all the liner locks I've ever used, the Military is the one that gets as close to perfect as possible. The knife would probably be destroyed before the lock failed.

The liner lock is the only lock Ive had fail on me, many times, with many different knives. You can disengage the liner on most knives just by squeezing the handle a certain way. Ive done this on at least 5 knives including several CRKTs and a few Spydies, like the tenacious. I havent tried it on the military but I will personally never own another liner lock.

 

[Evany]

I think my left handed Military is pretty close to perfect. I like the current lock--I like the compression lock, too, but the LH liner lock is the easiest for me to open and close safely and intuitively. I'd like to see some other steel choices for us lefties. I'd like to see the handle 1/2" shorter as others have said. I'd like to see it have all black hardware. Meanwhile, it's my preferred EDC. I carry a PM2 when I want to be slightly more discrete.

 

[singularity35]

The liner lock is the only lock Ive had fail on me, many times, with many different knives. You can disengage the liner on most knives just by squeezing the handle a certain way. ...

Seems to me to be inadvertent release, not failure. Doesn't mean it's weak.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

If the knife closes when you don't want it to, what's the difference?

And liner/ frame locks wear out the quickest. The Military may work ok but if there is a better, more advanced lock design why not use it?

 

[Huntsman Knife Co. LLC.]

If the knife closes when you don't want it to, what's the difference?

And liner/ frame locks wear out the quickest. The Military may work ok but if there is a better, more advanced lock design why not use it?

exactly, the liner lock is an outdated lock and there are much better options out there. I think the comp lock would be perfect for the military, just as light but way stronger and allows for rapid opening and closing.

 

[singularity35]

exactly, the liner lock is an outdated lock and there are much better options out there. I think the comp lock would be perfect for the military, just as light but way stronger and allows for rapid opening and closing.

A comp lock on an updated millie would be nice too. Sort of an upsized para 2.

 

[bodankers]

exactly, the liner lock is an outdated lock and there are much better options out there. I think the comp lock would be perfect for the military, just as light but way stronger and allows for rapid opening and closing.

The Compression lock is undoubtedly my favorite lock hands down, however grab your Para & Millie go put some rigging gloves on and give those knifes a work out in the rain, mud and snow etc.. You'll quickly discover the easy accessibility of the Millies liner lock wins this battle every time.

Bo

 

[swegeek]

The liner lock is the only lock Ive had fail on me, many times, with many different knives. You can disengage the liner on most knives just by squeezing the handle a certain way. Ive done this on at least 5 knives including several CRKTs and a few Spydies, like the tenacious. I havent tried it on the military but I will personally never own another liner lock.

This. The Military is my favourite knife bar none but I really wish they do something about the lock. The G10 lends itself to torque and with the torque comes failure.

Also think it's an old, outdated truism that the Millies lock is well constructed. It's well designed, yes, and it also used to be well manufactured with the eccentric stop pin back when some guy at Golden would actually tweak the knife so the lockbar was a 100% flush with the locking surface. However - ever since they made the switch to a regular stop pin and began selling the lock on the idea that current CNC tech had such high tolerances it didn't need any tweaking, a flush lockbar is as much of a hit and miss as the blade play on the Manix and Para, more often than not just catching on a corner of the lockbar rather than the whole surface. The result is a lock that's not only much weaker to impact pressure but also one that wears much, much faster than a properly manufactured one.

 

[bodankers]

This. The Military is my favourite knife bar none but I really wish they do something about the lock. The G10 lends itself to torque and with the torque comes failure.

Also think it's an old, outdated truism that the Millies lock is well constructed. It's well designed, yes, and it also used to be well manufactured with the eccentric stop pin back when some guy at Golden would actually tweak the knife so the lockbar was a 100% flush with the locking surface. However - ever since they made the switch to a regular stop pin and began selling the lock on the idea that current CNC tech had such high tolerances it didn't need any tweaking, a flush lockbar is as much of a hit and miss as the blade play on the Manix and Para, more often than not just catching on a corner of the lockbar rather than the whole surface. The result is a lock that's not only much weaker to impact pressure but also one that wears much, much faster than a properly manufactured one.

Just correcting one thing here, early Millie's had eccentric Pivots not eccentric stop pins.

Bo

 

[swegeek]

Just correcting one thing here, early Millie's had eccentric Pivots not eccentric stop pins.

Bo

Of course. My mistake.

Hi Sixheads,

The ecentric that we used was developed by Vince Ford for manufactujring linerlocks. It permitted fine tune adjustments of the lock / tang interface. It was more of an aid in manufacturing but could be used to adjust for wear, to some degree. After we were able to tighten up our tolerance (Thanx to CNC's) we were able to eliminate the eccentric.

Hi Huugh,

Eccentric stop pins change the location of the tip of the blade as the stop pin rotates. Especially on a long blade, the change could be 2mm.

Changing the location of the tip of the blade changes the ratio of the blade / handle angle which changes the "sweet spot" of the cutting edge, in my oipinion.

sal

http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34335

 

[bodankers]

Nice. Don't believe every thing you read on the forums. Even Sal himself gets his words mixed up sometimes. The fact is that early Millies do have eccentric pivots. It is physically impossible for an eccentric stop pin to rotate while tightly nested in a liner. I suggest you examine one yourself.

Bo

edit ...
From Joyce re: Ecc. pivot pins.
"There was a cross over time where we had started using S30V on the C36 and were still using eccentric pivots. We stopped using eccentric pivots early this past summer and the Military's pivot pin changed then to a "D" nut. It actually came about as an improvement in our manufacturing capabilities. The tolerances on parts used in the older Military were tight but we've gotten better. We installed an eccentric pin so the knife could be adjusted for any tolerances that were not absolutely spot-on precise. With recently upgraded machinery (and a really talented crew) in our plant, we're cutting parts to even closer tolerances eliminating the need for adjustment. Probably seems rather strange, but we're getting better at making 'close to perfect parts'.

Joyce @ Spyderco"

 

[KarlMaldensNose]

+1. S90v cf Para 2 upsized to a Millie 2 would be my absolute dream.

Curious about what you've ever done that the Para wasn't large enough to adequately take on. Or is it as simple as you just having large hands?

 

[Handwrecker]

To the people complaining about the Military liner lock; have you ever had the Military fail or close on your inadvertently? I don't want to hear about some cheapo liner lock during use, just the Spyderco Military. If the answer is no, then you're making an issue out of thin air. Any lock where two pieces of metal meet will wear. How is the lockbar catch on a lockback any different? Is your comp lock tab impervious to wear?

I agree that the comp lock is great. But with gloves on (or even without) the Military still feels much more intuitive and easy to manipulate. I don't even like Emerson knives, but they're widely regarded as very tough and hard use. Oh wait, a liner lock out of a material softer than steel? Haven't heard many gripes with that. I've beaten the tar out of my Military for the last year, and I'm just not seeing these issues in this thread.

 

[swegeek]

Nice. Don't believe every thing you read on the forums. Even Sal himself gets his words mixed up sometimes. The fact is that early Millies do have eccentric pivots. It is physically impossible for an eccentric stop pin to rotate while tightly nested in a liner. I suggest you examine one yourself.

Bo

I don't see the problem here. You corrected my mistake and I agreed. :thumbup:

edit ...
From Joyce re: Ecc. pivot pins.
"There was a cross over time where we had started using S30V on the C36 and were still using eccentric pivots. We stopped using eccentric pivots early this past summer and the Military's pivot pin changed then to a "D" nut. It actually came about as an improvement in our manufacturing capabilities. The tolerances on parts used in the older Military were tight but we've gotten better. We installed an eccentric pin so the knife could be adjusted for any tolerances that were not absolutely spot-on precise. With recently upgraded machinery (and a really talented crew) in our plant, we're cutting parts to even closer tolerances eliminating the need for adjustment. Probably seems rather strange, but we're getting better at making 'close to perfect parts'.

Joyce @ Spyderco"

When was this? My problems with poor tolerances on the lock appeared sometime early 2008.

To the people complaining about the Military liner lock; have you ever had the Military fail or close on your inadvertently? I don't want to hear about some cheapo liner lock during use, just the Spyderco Military. If the answer is no, then you're making an issue out of thin air.

I think it was Singularity who posted a video with the torque disengagement and it's something you can replicate on your own (twist the handle while putting pressure on the blade). I've also found squeezing, light spine taps and hand pressure will disengage the non-flush locks fairly easily. Some Millies I've had have been the absolute poorest in terms of lock strength compared to other knives of mine.

Have I accidentaly had one close on me and it cut me? No, but I'm very cautious about not stressing the lock on those with poor QC, and even more so than with cheapo chinese folders that often have thicker and more precise locking surfaces. It's harsh but true and believe me I wish it wasn't. :foot:

Any lock where two pieces of metal meet will wear. How is the lockbar catch on a lockback any different? Is your comp lock tab impervious to wear?

There's been a few threads in the forum where people have asked if their lock is ok because it travels so much. The standard answer is usually "yes it's normal, the Millie is the best knife in the world" (yadaýada) but what I've personally found is that the locks that aren't flush will travel very quickly to the point on the tang where the angle gets steeper, and then travel some more because it's still molding to the tang. Anywhere between 60-90% travel in very short period of time is not unusual. :barf:

Sure all locks will wear but some locks will wear faster.

I agree that the comp lock is great. But with gloves on (or even without) the Military still feels much more intuitive and easy to manipulate. I don't even like Emerson knives, but they're widely regarded as very tough and hard use. Oh wait, a liner lock out of a material softer than steel? Haven't heard many gripes with that. I've beaten the tar out of my Military for the last year, and I'm just not seeing these issues in this thread.

The Military's design is great, but like the Manix and Para QC is sometimes lacking. Blade play is one thing though (eventhough the Manix and Para both had a redesign to fix their locks from failing horribly), but a weak liner lock is another thing all together.

I agree in most cases it wont be an issue and 99,99% of all users will never put any real stress on the knives because they are cutting tools, but a knife like the Military where it's first and foremost a tactical blade "normal usage" is a moot point (and one I'm quite frankly getting tired of hearing with other Spydercos as well).


I really don't want to be the one to have this conversation because it's so easy to become protective of both since they're special and without substitute for a lot of people (and I'm one of those people) - but the fact is that in my experience the Millies lock has tons of room for improvement... :thumbup: