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Idiots guide to Steel
- Thread starter zmac
- Start date
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- Jun 6, 2000
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AUS 6
Lower end stainless steel, very rust resistant when not cursed with a Glass Bead finish. Fair edge holding, but for a KnifeKnut just about acceptable. Expect to sharpen it a fair bit. Very good steel for ease of re-sharpening and toughness. A good first steel if you don't want a high maintanence knife. Takes a very sharp edge!
GIN 1
A very good steel with good toughness and good stain resistance. A significantly superiour steel to AUS6 in edge holding and yet still tough and stain resistant. Very easy to resharpen, but not quite as easy as AUS6. An edge with this steel will typically last twice as long. Takes a scary sharp edge.
VG10
Very very good stainless steel. Quite easy to sharpen and takes a very very keen edge. Good toughness and above average-good rust resistance. Holds an edge longer than GIN-1 and is a tougher steel to boot! Highly recommended. Takes a Vorpal edge!
Talonite
Expensive for a start. Amazing edge holding and from others posts simplicity itself to sharpen. Rust proof in every way. However the combo of the best edge holding and rust proof is at the expense of toughness. As this is not actually a steel but a Cobolt alloy similar to VascoWear and Stellite, it is somewhat brittle in comparison to a normal steel. Now for daily use in cutting etc in a small knife, you will have few if any problems, but it is worth extra care if you may hit a staple in a box or something! Same applies to CPM 440V as well, but to a lesser degree...thats another story!
Hope it helps.
Lower end stainless steel, very rust resistant when not cursed with a Glass Bead finish. Fair edge holding, but for a KnifeKnut just about acceptable. Expect to sharpen it a fair bit. Very good steel for ease of re-sharpening and toughness. A good first steel if you don't want a high maintanence knife. Takes a very sharp edge!
GIN 1
A very good steel with good toughness and good stain resistance. A significantly superiour steel to AUS6 in edge holding and yet still tough and stain resistant. Very easy to resharpen, but not quite as easy as AUS6. An edge with this steel will typically last twice as long. Takes a scary sharp edge.
VG10
Very very good stainless steel. Quite easy to sharpen and takes a very very keen edge. Good toughness and above average-good rust resistance. Holds an edge longer than GIN-1 and is a tougher steel to boot! Highly recommended. Takes a Vorpal edge!
Talonite
Expensive for a start. Amazing edge holding and from others posts simplicity itself to sharpen. Rust proof in every way. However the combo of the best edge holding and rust proof is at the expense of toughness. As this is not actually a steel but a Cobolt alloy similar to VascoWear and Stellite, it is somewhat brittle in comparison to a normal steel. Now for daily use in cutting etc in a small knife, you will have few if any problems, but it is worth extra care if you may hit a staple in a box or something! Same applies to CPM 440V as well, but to a lesser degree...thats another story!
Hope it helps.
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The only disagreement that I have with what Wayne posted is that I do not find Talonite to be brittle. When done right, this blade material seems to be pretty tough. Maybe others have had a problem with brittle Talonite blades, but I have not.
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I did not say it was brittle, just compared to the steels above it was brittle. I agree that it would be a 'user' but no matter where you get it from it will be identical as you know it comes pre-hardened and the maker of the knife can do nothing to alter this.
Its all down to how you use it and on what.
Its all down to how you use it and on what.
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Oh and zmac, no problemo! My pleasure!
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Lol! Just tell me how much ya got and what you like and want it to do and I will recommend some blades!
Framelock/Integral Lock
Same thing! The way this works is one of the actual slabs of material that forms the handle is the lock bar (typically made from Ti). This makes it a very very strong lock, which when gripped tightly can only get better, rather than loosen up like a liner lock may. It is in my opinion the best lock around, being both big and low maintenence as there is nothing small to go wrong, get clogged or springs to break. It is however NOT ambidext. Look at the Sebenza from Chris Reeve to see the ultimate version of this lock. A big advantage of this lock is one handed closing, while being far stronger than a liner lock. Smooth opening.
Liner Lock
A little like the Frame lock, only rather than the solid handle forming the lock bar, the knife has scales of a material like G-10 or whatever and a liner or two made from steel or Ti. One of the liners, either way, moves like the Frame lock to block the knife from closing, Typically the liner lock is weaker than the framelock as it is 95% of the time easily half the thickness and strength/rigidity of a frame lock. However Steel and Ti are different is strength and a steel liner lock like on the LCC is more than adequate. As above one handed closure and smooth opening are pluses. A well done liner lock is great, a cheap one badly fitted is down right dangerous. Use the 'spine whack' test on any liner lock. Look at the AFCK or Microtech LCC for examples. The ultimate example of this lock is the Strider AR.
Turn the knife upside down, get your fingers out of the way of the blades path when it folds and tap with moderate force onto a book. If the knife folds up, bin it! My Spyderco Starmate fails this test into the palm of my hand. I am sending it back to a Brit dealer to swap. NO liner lock aught to do this.
Compression Lock
A weird one this, the lock is on the top of the front of the knife. The exact opposite to the liner lock. It is similar to a liner lock in terms of size and thickness, but the design makes it far stronger than a liner lock. It takes a lot of getting used to and I am not 100% convinced with the ergonomics myself. I will withold judgement. Look at the Spyderco range like the Gunting. This is a MA (Martial Arts) lock where great strength is required. This is a GOOD thing.
Axis Lock
Great design, solid lock up and its ambidex! Very smooth lock up and probably as good for strength as the Frame lock. However... There are complex bits in the lock, the Omega springs have failed for some and mine gets gunked up with pocket fluff, which has twice caused it not to lock open. Plus this is a very difficult device to take apart and clean. If it were not for these 'small' problems, (which may or may not affect you, chances are they won't, I get a lot of crap in my pockets!), this would be the best lock on the block. Overall I do like this lock second to the Frame lock. Best examples of this knife lock are the Benchmade 710 and 730. I own an M2 710.
Lockback
The classic, good lock up and reliable, much ignored as it is far harder to close one handed. This can be done with ease with practice, but the need for simple one handed open and close is what brought the liner lock about. The pressure of the lockback spring makes a lockback knife typically stiffer to open as well. The other Ambidex knife lock here. Much ignored as it is no longer fashionable.
A very solid lock when well done, not to be ignored. Look at the Spyderco Endura/Delica for an example of a good lockback, or the classic Buck 110.
Hope it helps.
Any other questions?
Framelock/Integral Lock
Same thing! The way this works is one of the actual slabs of material that forms the handle is the lock bar (typically made from Ti). This makes it a very very strong lock, which when gripped tightly can only get better, rather than loosen up like a liner lock may. It is in my opinion the best lock around, being both big and low maintenence as there is nothing small to go wrong, get clogged or springs to break. It is however NOT ambidext. Look at the Sebenza from Chris Reeve to see the ultimate version of this lock. A big advantage of this lock is one handed closing, while being far stronger than a liner lock. Smooth opening.
Liner Lock
A little like the Frame lock, only rather than the solid handle forming the lock bar, the knife has scales of a material like G-10 or whatever and a liner or two made from steel or Ti. One of the liners, either way, moves like the Frame lock to block the knife from closing, Typically the liner lock is weaker than the framelock as it is 95% of the time easily half the thickness and strength/rigidity of a frame lock. However Steel and Ti are different is strength and a steel liner lock like on the LCC is more than adequate. As above one handed closure and smooth opening are pluses. A well done liner lock is great, a cheap one badly fitted is down right dangerous. Use the 'spine whack' test on any liner lock. Look at the AFCK or Microtech LCC for examples. The ultimate example of this lock is the Strider AR.
Turn the knife upside down, get your fingers out of the way of the blades path when it folds and tap with moderate force onto a book. If the knife folds up, bin it! My Spyderco Starmate fails this test into the palm of my hand. I am sending it back to a Brit dealer to swap. NO liner lock aught to do this.
Compression Lock
A weird one this, the lock is on the top of the front of the knife. The exact opposite to the liner lock. It is similar to a liner lock in terms of size and thickness, but the design makes it far stronger than a liner lock. It takes a lot of getting used to and I am not 100% convinced with the ergonomics myself. I will withold judgement. Look at the Spyderco range like the Gunting. This is a MA (Martial Arts) lock where great strength is required. This is a GOOD thing.
Axis Lock
Great design, solid lock up and its ambidex! Very smooth lock up and probably as good for strength as the Frame lock. However... There are complex bits in the lock, the Omega springs have failed for some and mine gets gunked up with pocket fluff, which has twice caused it not to lock open. Plus this is a very difficult device to take apart and clean. If it were not for these 'small' problems, (which may or may not affect you, chances are they won't, I get a lot of crap in my pockets!), this would be the best lock on the block. Overall I do like this lock second to the Frame lock. Best examples of this knife lock are the Benchmade 710 and 730. I own an M2 710.
Lockback
The classic, good lock up and reliable, much ignored as it is far harder to close one handed. This can be done with ease with practice, but the need for simple one handed open and close is what brought the liner lock about. The pressure of the lockback spring makes a lockback knife typically stiffer to open as well. The other Ambidex knife lock here. Much ignored as it is no longer fashionable.
A very solid lock when well done, not to be ignored. Look at the Spyderco Endura/Delica for an example of a good lockback, or the classic Buck 110.
Hope it helps.
Any other questions?
I will try to be short:
framelock: the lock of this kind of knife is a piece of the handle. The handle has to be a metal (aliminium, titan, iron,).It works as a BIG linerlock. if you can look at a picture of a CRKT KISS, you can clearly see the end of one side of the handle=frame locking the blade. The pro's are that is really robust, and when you grip the knife and apply pressure on the handle, it locks stronger.
Linerlock: in this case the lock is the liner (or one of the two liners). The liners are the pieces of metal that make the frame of the knife, they're in between the handle material. It is also a really good luck, makes one hand opening a piece of cake. But because the handle must have clearance to release the lock, it has know to close whilst cutting. When you grip some linerlocks handles, you can accidentaly disengaege the lock.
==========>
that is why the axis, compression, LAWKS, locks were invented. they use a secondary and mechanic lock that locks the linerlock in place, when the knife is open. The first model (I know of)that had a secondary lock for the liner was the Applegate/Fairbairn Covert folder, made by GERBER.
Backlock or frontlock: the backlock is the lock found on, for exemple, the very well known Buck 110. ( the frontlock only differs in the position of the lever, at the front of the blade).It is a lock that operates on a lever, and works as a locking cam. This is a lock that almost never fails, and because the lever is recessed it is almost impossible to accidentaly open while cutting.
Hope to have been of help to you.
framelock: the lock of this kind of knife is a piece of the handle. The handle has to be a metal (aliminium, titan, iron,).It works as a BIG linerlock. if you can look at a picture of a CRKT KISS, you can clearly see the end of one side of the handle=frame locking the blade. The pro's are that is really robust, and when you grip the knife and apply pressure on the handle, it locks stronger.
Linerlock: in this case the lock is the liner (or one of the two liners). The liners are the pieces of metal that make the frame of the knife, they're in between the handle material. It is also a really good luck, makes one hand opening a piece of cake. But because the handle must have clearance to release the lock, it has know to close whilst cutting. When you grip some linerlocks handles, you can accidentaly disengaege the lock.
==========>
that is why the axis, compression, LAWKS, locks were invented. they use a secondary and mechanic lock that locks the linerlock in place, when the knife is open. The first model (I know of)that had a secondary lock for the liner was the Applegate/Fairbairn Covert folder, made by GERBER.
Backlock or frontlock: the backlock is the lock found on, for exemple, the very well known Buck 110. ( the frontlock only differs in the position of the lever, at the front of the blade).It is a lock that operates on a lever, and works as a locking cam. This is a lock that almost never fails, and because the lever is recessed it is almost impossible to accidentaly open while cutting.
Hope to have been of help to you.
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Nice! Great to see someone else takes the time out for new guys!
I forgot about the LAWKS system also, cheers!
I rate the locks like this:
1. Frame lock.
2. Plunge lock (as seen on Masters of Defence Close Quarters Defence Duane Dieter Special Operations Trainer. Whew! My current EDC
If only the police knew...
3. Axis lock.
I forgot about the LAWKS system also, cheers!
I rate the locks like this:
1. Frame lock.
2. Plunge lock (as seen on Masters of Defence Close Quarters Defence Duane Dieter Special Operations Trainer. Whew! My current EDC
If only the police knew... 3. Axis lock.
General, a pity for you that the linerlock on your starmate failed! I have used mine for two years already, and it never happened to me.
If you want a lockback that is smooth!!!! to operate, I have the answer for you. A handmade frontlock folder made in the Netherlands. It is made by Hill Knives Holland, and called the Outdoor no. 1.
www.hillknives.com,( outdoor/folders)
it is made of ATS34 steel heated to Rc 59, the handle is in Lexan. The price is around 200Euro (= 150USD???).
If you want a lockback that is smooth!!!! to operate, I have the answer for you. A handmade frontlock folder made in the Netherlands. It is made by Hill Knives Holland, and called the Outdoor no. 1.
www.hillknives.com,( outdoor/folders)
it is made of ATS34 steel heated to Rc 59, the handle is in Lexan. The price is around 200Euro (= 150USD???).
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I will have a look, cheers! Yes it was a real shame the Starmate fails the test. I can hit my palm with it and it pops closed! I aught to send it back, but I just have not had the time. I will sort it out tommorow.
Have a good one.
zmac, what knives do you own and what are you looking at blade wise? Perhaps if we change the topic slightly, the other members may decide to join in!
Have a good one.
zmac, what knives do you own and what are you looking at blade wise? Perhaps if we change the topic slightly, the other members may decide to join in!
You guys rock
Thank you very much for taking the time out to explain all this.
I'm very much a knife virgin, and currently own nothing more than a few Swiss Army Knives.
What I'm looking for is a small utility folder. And I will spend up to £100, $120-140 tops.
At the moment I think I prefer blades with a hole for opening after trying a few Sydercos v thumbstuds. However, like I said, I'm not experienced in these things.
Advice welcome
Thank you very much for taking the time out to explain all this.
I'm very much a knife virgin, and currently own nothing more than a few Swiss Army Knives.
What I'm looking for is a small utility folder. And I will spend up to £100, $120-140 tops.
At the moment I think I prefer blades with a hole for opening after trying a few Sydercos v thumbstuds. However, like I said, I'm not experienced in these things.
Advice welcome
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Ok, great price point to start collecting at!
A few models spring to mind at the moment. The Spyderco Military is an exellent knife and of course has the SpyderHole! The Starmate is another excellent knife (my lock failure is highly unusual).
If you don't mind the thumb stud design, then there are a number of different knives also available.
The Microtech LCC in particular is a fantastic knife!
If you want a framelock in the price range you are looking at then the CRK&T S2 or the Benchmade 750 are available. Though be warned, the S2 is no longer made using premium ATS-34 and the 750 has been discontinued.
In an Axis lock the BT2 coated 710 in M2 tool steel is a great knife. Just be aware of the problems I have had with gunk getting in the lock!
I could go on and on and on... So here is a shortlist in no particular order.
Spyderco Military and Starmate (liner locks and CPM 440V)
Benchmade 710, 750 and 730 (Axis, Framelock and Axis steels inc 154CM/ATS-34 and M2)
Microtech LCC (liner lock and 154CM)
Al Mar Sere 2000 (liner lock and VG-10)
CRK&T S2 (Frame lock with either ATS-34 or Cutco-118 steel which is not as good)
Benchmade are bringing out a D2 tool steel AFCK Axis lock with a BT2 coating the 806. Now I don't care for the coating or the oval hole, but it is otherwise a very tempting knife. If it were not for the above I would order three! Oh, if I had the cash as well .
If I were to make a genuine recomondation I would ask a few things of you.
How important is rust resistance?
How important is edge holding?
How important is Toughness? (Will you be bashing the knife or cutting very hard things?)
What is your knife sharpening experience and what kit do you have?
From my biased point of view from what you have said so far, my N1 choice would be a CPM 440V Spyderco Military, with the 806 AFCK Axis a close second. I think either would be great knives. Then again the LCC is an amazing knife also, and so is...
The Military and 806 are hole openers, so I would look at those first, that is why I recomended them top.
I personally would go:
1.Chris Reeve Sebenza
2.Spyderco Military
3.Masters Of Defense CDQ DD
4.Microtech LCC D/A
5.BM 710 M2
But then thats me! I own all of the above and they are highly recommended.
A few models spring to mind at the moment. The Spyderco Military is an exellent knife and of course has the SpyderHole! The Starmate is another excellent knife (my lock failure is highly unusual).
If you don't mind the thumb stud design, then there are a number of different knives also available.
The Microtech LCC in particular is a fantastic knife!
If you want a framelock in the price range you are looking at then the CRK&T S2 or the Benchmade 750 are available. Though be warned, the S2 is no longer made using premium ATS-34 and the 750 has been discontinued.
In an Axis lock the BT2 coated 710 in M2 tool steel is a great knife. Just be aware of the problems I have had with gunk getting in the lock!
I could go on and on and on... So here is a shortlist in no particular order.
Spyderco Military and Starmate (liner locks and CPM 440V)
Benchmade 710, 750 and 730 (Axis, Framelock and Axis steels inc 154CM/ATS-34 and M2)
Microtech LCC (liner lock and 154CM)
Al Mar Sere 2000 (liner lock and VG-10)
CRK&T S2 (Frame lock with either ATS-34 or Cutco-118 steel which is not as good)
Benchmade are bringing out a D2 tool steel AFCK Axis lock with a BT2 coating the 806. Now I don't care for the coating or the oval hole, but it is otherwise a very tempting knife. If it were not for the above I would order three! Oh, if I had the cash as well
. If I were to make a genuine recomondation I would ask a few things of you.
How important is rust resistance?
How important is edge holding?
How important is Toughness? (Will you be bashing the knife or cutting very hard things?)
What is your knife sharpening experience and what kit do you have?
From my biased point of view from what you have said so far, my N1 choice would be a CPM 440V Spyderco Military, with the 806 AFCK Axis a close second. I think either would be great knives. Then again the LCC is an amazing knife also, and so is...
The Military and 806 are hole openers, so I would look at those first, that is why I recomended them top.
I personally would go:
1.Chris Reeve Sebenza
2.Spyderco Military
3.Masters Of Defense CDQ DD
4.Microtech LCC D/A
5.BM 710 M2
But then thats me! I own all of the above and they are highly recommended.
Wow, another fine response
I'm after a SMALL folder - LOL @Spyderco Military - what do you call a LARGE folder lol.
How important is rust resistance? - no big deal, as it will mainly be carried and used in the dry.
How important is edge holding? I'll mainly be cutting boxes
How important is Toughness? (Will you be bashing the knife or cutting very hard things?) see above
What is your knife sharpening experience and what kit do you have? I'm a dab hand at sharpening carving knives.
Also while you are at it, where to get folders in the UK.
Thank you.
I will have a look at the recommendations you made now
I'm after a SMALL folder - LOL @Spyderco Military - what do you call a LARGE folder lol.
How important is rust resistance? - no big deal, as it will mainly be carried and used in the dry.
How important is edge holding? I'll mainly be cutting boxes
How important is Toughness? (Will you be bashing the knife or cutting very hard things?) see above
What is your knife sharpening experience and what kit do you have? I'm a dab hand at sharpening carving knives.
Also while you are at it, where to get folders in the UK.
Thank you.
I will have a look at the recommendations you made now
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A small S2 then would be ideal, they sell them in a shop local to me (Bangor) about £80 IIRC. Failing that a BM 705?
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You may want to consider the Camillus EDC in Talonite, 154Cm or the new D2 model from AG Russel as well.
Also the Mini AFCK in M2
Or the Chris Reeve Small Sebenza! You know you want one...
At a lower cost, the Spyderco Native in CPM 440V or the Spyderco Delica. THe new Delica's will be in VG-10!
Also the Mini AFCK in M2
Or the Chris Reeve Small Sebenza!
You know you want one... At a lower cost, the Spyderco Native in CPM 440V or the Spyderco Delica. THe new Delica's will be in VG-10!
Doesn't EVERYONE here want a small Sabenza? LOL. I do, but it's way too expensive for me. Are they WAY better than the S2 or Camillus EDC?
Here's my want list:
1. CRKT S2
2. Camillus EDC
3. Spyderco Delica
4. AFCK - worth waiting for Axis?
I'll have a shop around the net tonight. Thanks for the advice.
Here's my want list:
1. CRKT S2
2. Camillus EDC
3. Spyderco Delica
4. AFCK - worth waiting for Axis?
I'll have a shop around the net tonight. Thanks for the advice.
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1. CRKT S2
2. Camillus EDC
3. Spyderco Delica
4. AFCK - worth waiting for Axis?
Great choices! You may have to wait a fair few months for a small sized AFCK with the Axis. Until then I would wait for the VG-10 Delica (due any day now) or go for either the 154CM or D2 EDC.
My current daily carry is,
Masters of Defence QCD DD front pocket, BM 710 Axis M2 coat pocket, Keyring with stuff inc SAK Adventurer and Camillus 154CM EDC.
Thats just day to day...
When I get my G2 Sheaths, my large and small sebi will become EDC knives and I can't wait to get my Mnandi.
Oh yes is the Small seb way better than those two? Well mine is a dark Walnut wood inlay with a spirograph Damascus blade... So the answer is heck YES! However a standard plain Sebi is still better than either of those knives buy a fair margin. Its all about diminishing returns 5-6 times the cost but only twice the knife? Still worth it IMHO. I still however think your best bet is either the VG-10 Delica or the EDC from AG Russel.com. Go for the D2 steel model... I want one of those myself.
Take care.
2. Camillus EDC
3. Spyderco Delica
4. AFCK - worth waiting for Axis?
Great choices! You may have to wait a fair few months for a small sized AFCK with the Axis. Until then I would wait for the VG-10 Delica (due any day now) or go for either the 154CM or D2 EDC.
My current daily carry is,
Masters of Defence QCD DD front pocket, BM 710 Axis M2 coat pocket, Keyring with stuff inc SAK Adventurer and Camillus 154CM EDC.
Thats just day to day...
When I get my G2 Sheaths, my large and small sebi will become EDC knives and I can't wait to get my Mnandi.
Oh yes is the Small seb way better than those two? Well mine is a dark Walnut wood inlay with a spirograph Damascus blade... So the answer is heck YES! However a standard plain Sebi is still better than either of those knives buy a fair margin. Its all about diminishing returns 5-6 times the cost but only twice the knife? Still worth it IMHO. I still however think your best bet is either the VG-10 Delica or the EDC from AG Russel.com. Go for the D2 steel model... I want one of those myself.
Take care.