I have watched a lot of those vids. There fun to see and a good data point on the knife but used a measurement for steel their worthless. I'm not going to go into a big speech about blade geometry but you just can't compare a Busse with a spine thickness of 0.32 with a kabar at something like 0.15 inches thick and come to the conclusion the difference is in the steel.
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if infi steel is really as good as people say, why no close copy?
- Thread starter jbmonkey
- Start date
I have watched a lot of those vids. There fun to see and a good data point on the knife but used a measurement for steel their worthless. I'm not going to go into a big speech about blade geometry but you just can't compare a Busse with a spine thickness of 0.32 with a kabar at something like 0.15 inches thick and come to the conclusion the difference is in the steel.
Knife and sword fanatics have been arguing for many centuries about steel and the mysteries thereof.
There is the legendary Wootz that can cut a falling silk, Masamune japanese blades that can cut through multiple cadavers and take immense impacts without breaking or chipping, and so on.
Cold Steel used to advertise their Carbon V Trailmasters as having a super secret super steel that could punch through cars without getting scratched.
Busse went them one better with their Infi mystery speil, .
Although Infi is much better than Carbon V ( whatever Carbon V happens to be be nowadays), and for chopping it is really a superb steel.
Infi is no real mystery nor is it the ultimate supersteel that outperforms every other metal in the world in every way.
All metals, heat treats and blade geometries have their advantages and disadvantages, and the details of those fill the forum discussions, as they should.
We all have our favourites and most of us are eagerly looking for new and improved materials and techniques, and knife fans, like me, as opposed to knife experts, like many other forumites, eagerly await what the experts come up with. There is something new, by science or artistry, all the time.
As far as Infi and Busse are concerned, Busse is a great company that make outstanding knives because Infi is a great material and Jerry really knows what he is doing to maximize performance for certain purposes. I love my Busses and think they are worth the money. But Fehrman and their take on 3V are also superb and worth the money and whatever they do, their 3v seems to respond better to corrosion than other 3V I've had, but not as well as Infi. But it's close enough to become a matter of personal preference for almost everyone's actual use.
Still, more traditional steels, like 52100, in the hands of a master like Wally Hayes or Ed Fowler, to take just two notable examples, are superb performers with their own advantages and disadvantages ( cost being a major disadvantage
)
To me this "supersteel" approach is largely oversimplification and marketing if you are using it to determine what is "the best", because that concept itself is an oversimplification and marketing.
Read the technical metallurgical threads and the practical experience and testing threads both for fun and for information, but take it all with a little grain of salt.
You will not go wrong with an Infi Busse, or a 3V fehrman, or an S30V Lightfoot, for that matter. I bet if we did a double blind test, most people would be knocked out by the performance of 440C if done as well as someone like George Tichbourne did them, may he rest in peace.
This is all part of the challenge and fun of using, collecting (and, i suppose, making) knives and swords.
There is the legendary Wootz that can cut a falling silk, Masamune japanese blades that can cut through multiple cadavers and take immense impacts without breaking or chipping, and so on.
Cold Steel used to advertise their Carbon V Trailmasters as having a super secret super steel that could punch through cars without getting scratched.
Busse went them one better with their Infi mystery speil, .
Although Infi is much better than Carbon V ( whatever Carbon V happens to be be nowadays), and for chopping it is really a superb steel.
Infi is no real mystery nor is it the ultimate supersteel that outperforms every other metal in the world in every way.
All metals, heat treats and blade geometries have their advantages and disadvantages, and the details of those fill the forum discussions, as they should.
We all have our favourites and most of us are eagerly looking for new and improved materials and techniques, and knife fans, like me, as opposed to knife experts, like many other forumites, eagerly await what the experts come up with. There is something new, by science or artistry, all the time.
As far as Infi and Busse are concerned, Busse is a great company that make outstanding knives because Infi is a great material and Jerry really knows what he is doing to maximize performance for certain purposes. I love my Busses and think they are worth the money. But Fehrman and their take on 3V are also superb and worth the money and whatever they do, their 3v seems to respond better to corrosion than other 3V I've had, but not as well as Infi. But it's close enough to become a matter of personal preference for almost everyone's actual use.
Still, more traditional steels, like 52100, in the hands of a master like Wally Hayes or Ed Fowler, to take just two notable examples, are superb performers with their own advantages and disadvantages ( cost being a major disadvantage
)To me this "supersteel" approach is largely oversimplification and marketing if you are using it to determine what is "the best", because that concept itself is an oversimplification and marketing.
Read the technical metallurgical threads and the practical experience and testing threads both for fun and for information, but take it all with a little grain of salt.
You will not go wrong with an Infi Busse, or a 3V fehrman, or an S30V Lightfoot, for that matter. I bet if we did a double blind test, most people would be knocked out by the performance of 440C if done as well as someone like George Tichbourne did them, may he rest in peace.
This is all part of the challenge and fun of using, collecting (and, i suppose, making) knives and swords.
- Joined
- Jul 23, 2007
- Messages
- 3,889
I'm going to talk about my experience:
I use big choppers on a very regular basis to chop small trees.
INFI is much better than most steels for that application (I tried 1095, SK5 (chips pretty easy), 5160 steel).
I might also buy a Fehrman 3v blade one day... but right now they are more expensive than Busse knives !
I use big choppers on a very regular basis to chop small trees.
INFI is much better than most steels for that application (I tried 1095, SK5 (chips pretty easy), 5160 steel).
I might also buy a Fehrman 3v blade one day... but right now they are more expensive than Busse knives !
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- Jul 30, 2008
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- 1,414
Interesting quotes:
Mastiff, I can understand why you might like 3V better than INFI. Why 52100? I would think that 3V would generally best 52100 on about every parameter...? What is it you like about 52100?
Mastiff, I can understand why you might like 3V better than INFI. Why 52100? I would think that 3V would generally best 52100 on about every parameter...? What is it you like about 52100?
- Joined
- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,613
Rob, It's an all around high performer. It's not at the top in any of the three main categories we test for ( wear, corrosion, and toughness/ductility) but it is pretty darn high in edge stability, decent wear resistance, decent toughness and IMO it sharpens up to biting sharp really easily. It maintains high sharpness levels very well. It also can take pretty high hardnesses without being too chippy. Corrosion resistance isn't that great, but I've had worse too ( hitachi White & blue for instance). It does need care and coatings when possible.
It's an old school forgers ( heat and beat) steel that I like. I'm not making claims about superior performance for it but I do like it. In the hands of a good knifemaker it really can perform.
3V is one of my favorites as well. I have about 5 fixed blades and 1 folder in 3V and think it's pretty all around too. Not the best in any one attribute but a well balanced steel that gets along with my needs and likes.
I also think highly of
W2
O-1/O-2
1095/1085/84
M2, M4 HSS's
etc.
BTW, I am down to only 1 infi knife currently but have no intention of getting rid of it. I like it as well performance wise. It's pretty good all around too.
I just like it.
It's an old school forgers ( heat and beat) steel that I like. I'm not making claims about superior performance for it but I do like it. In the hands of a good knifemaker it really can perform.
3V is one of my favorites as well. I have about 5 fixed blades and 1 folder in 3V and think it's pretty all around too. Not the best in any one attribute but a well balanced steel that gets along with my needs and likes.
I also think highly of
W2
O-1/O-2
1095/1085/84
M2, M4 HSS's
etc.
BTW, I am down to only 1 infi knife currently but have no intention of getting rid of it. I like it as well performance wise. It's pretty good all around too.
I just like it.
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- Jul 30, 2008
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- 1,414
I can attest that the one knife I still have in 52100, an integral hunter by Rick Dunkerly, is by a wide margin the one knife that I can most easily get truly scary, hair jumpin sharp. I wish I hadn't sold my other 5" Dunkerly... would buy it back if I saw it up for grabs again (5" woodcraft pattern, ironwood and mokume). I figured it was just a well forged knife that got a good heat treat... and that most any of the simple carbon steels could probably do as well...
I'm just a bit skeptical of Ed Fowler's claims about magical properties at this juncture. I do think he goes overboard, but that doesn't mean 52100 doesn't make a good carbon steel blade.
I also know that testing things side-by-side, with identical conditions, and knives, and edge profiles, helps in comparisons. So I have all of the Spyderco Mules. At least that get's the shape and profile to similar. Just haven't made the time to do rope or cardboard cutting tests myself. Sal's pack includes a 52100 Mule.
I'm just a bit skeptical of Ed Fowler's claims about magical properties at this juncture. I do think he goes overboard, but that doesn't mean 52100 doesn't make a good carbon steel blade.
I also know that testing things side-by-side, with identical conditions, and knives, and edge profiles, helps in comparisons. So I have all of the Spyderco Mules. At least that get's the shape and profile to similar. Just haven't made the time to do rope or cardboard cutting tests myself. Sal's pack includes a 52100 Mule.
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- Apr 21, 2006
- Messages
- 5,613
In my experience it works well at rc 58, and works even better at RC 62, and does good up to RC 64 which is as far as I've tried it ( I pushed an O-1 skinner design up to RC 64-65 so RC 64 should be considered fairly tame, at least for me).
Bearing steels just seem to do good at cutlery applications. BG42 is the stainless version of M50 High speed bearing steel, which makes it a stainless High speed bearing steel. Most obviously have other applications as well.
Good stuff, IMO, like the HSS class. They seem to make great knife blades as wrll
Bearing steels just seem to do good at cutlery applications. BG42 is the stainless version of M50 High speed bearing steel, which makes it a stainless High speed bearing steel. Most obviously have other applications as well.
Good stuff, IMO, like the HSS class. They seem to make great knife blades as wrll
DavidZ
Gold Member
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- Oct 30, 2004
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- 4,330
I carry and use a large chopper with me all the time in the thick woods in this area. The only chopper that has NOT chipped or broken for me was a Busse. I do not abuse any of my blades, chopping only branches and limbs that are in the way, but I had a Carbon V Kukri chip out a section larger than a golf ball on a dead branch. 
I also had another brand name kukri style chopper actually break in two at the thin waist section while chopping. Both companies replaced them right away, with no questions asked, but at that point, I had lost confidence in the knife. I have even had a custom 5160 chopper by a well known maker chip out huge. That replacement took forever! The only chopper that has not failed me to this point is a Busse. Whether it is the steel, or the heat treatment, or the edge geometry - it just works! My current woods walking partner is a NMFBM LE, and it has performed flawlessly to this point. 
I also had another brand name kukri style chopper actually break in two at the thin waist section while chopping. Both companies replaced them right away, with no questions asked, but at that point, I had lost confidence in the knife. I have even had a custom 5160 chopper by a well known maker chip out huge. That replacement took forever! The only chopper that has not failed me to this point is a Busse. Whether it is the steel, or the heat treatment, or the edge geometry - it just works! My current woods walking partner is a NMFBM LE, and it has performed flawlessly to this point. I carry and use a large chopper with me all the time in the thick woods in this area. The only chopper that has NOT chipped or broken for me was a Busse. I do not abuse any of my blades, chopping only branches and limbs that are in the way, but I had a Carbon V Kukri chip out a section larger than a golf ball on a dead branch.
Well here I am trying to decide the one knife if it gets down to that, and you have helped me decide it has to be my CG NMFBM, I don't have a LE version. I have to hang on to it at all cost, thanks and it is good to here so much positive comments on the NMFBM.
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- Oct 19, 2008
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Hi J.
I'm not quite sure I understand that statement.. Its Patented so no one knows whats in it? Typically an Item remains secret UNTIL it receives a patent so that no one can copy it.. but legally a patented item must be filed for anyone to lookup.. Otherwise there would be accidental infringements happening all the time as new people come up with similar or the same formulas. Every INFI knife would also have to be stamped with a patent ID by law to tell people that they may not reverse engineer and copy the item.
"Unlike most countries, the United States has a first to invent patent system (as opposed to a first to file system). Therefore, in the U.S. it is highly advisable to formally document your invention as soon as possible after you invent (conceive) it. To do this you should prepare a detailed Invention Disclosure which includes the following:
"
If my facts are wrong then please correct me.
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- 589
It's interesting that the knife destruction tests have been brought up. I also noticed that a huge busse seemed to do better than any other blade in those tests. I think that it is worth noting that busses are knives that are specifically designed to withstand knife destruction type stuff. From what I have seen, infi on a big thick chopper blade is proably the best choice for having a knife that can take that sort of abuse and keep its edge intact. This is how I think of infi ... I personally would not want it in a small knife that isn't going to be used for chopping, etc.
Also, someone else was asking about 52100 and 3V vs. infi. I have a swamp rat, which uses their version of 52100. I chose a blade with that steel over both infi and 3V. One reason was that in the tests that I saw, the swamp rat 52100 (SR-101) held an edge quite a bit better than both of these steels.
Also, someone else was asking about 52100 and 3V vs. infi. I have a swamp rat, which uses their version of 52100. I chose a blade with that steel over both infi and 3V. One reason was that in the tests that I saw, the swamp rat 52100 (SR-101) held an edge quite a bit better than both of these steels.
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- Jul 21, 2001
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Rob Angerer:
We have made no "magical claims" about 52100. Rex and I and our team have been working with steel from one pour for over 20 years, during this time we have tested to destruction 100's of knives and invested over $75,000 in lab. work. We have honestly shared every aspect of our research with anyone who wants to know. I have written about the development of our research as it progressed in Blade Magazine. We teach students utilizing a one instructor to one student ratio in my shop. We have made DVDs that describe every step and demonstrate cutting performance honestly. Magical - I don't think so, hard work - yes.
We have made no "magical claims" about 52100. Rex and I and our team have been working with steel from one pour for over 20 years, during this time we have tested to destruction 100's of knives and invested over $75,000 in lab. work. We have honestly shared every aspect of our research with anyone who wants to know. I have written about the development of our research as it progressed in Blade Magazine. We teach students utilizing a one instructor to one student ratio in my shop. We have made DVDs that describe every step and demonstrate cutting performance honestly. Magical - I don't think so, hard work - yes.
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- Feb 27, 2001
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- 26,713
The only thing wrong with Ed Fowler's knives is that I don't own one
Now that deserves to be quoted again.
Been reading about Ed's work with 52100 during that twenty year period. Not sure where the magical fits in. All his work and research has been openly documented and shared. Not sure how the magical conclusion is reached at all.
Finding the exact composition(of any metal) is actually a breeze. A hand-held PMI gun will reveal each element, along with its percentage: http://www.niton.com/Metal-and-Alloy-Analysis/Products.aspx?sflang=en
Jewelry stores that buy from walk-ins often have one.
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- Sep 7, 2006
- Messages
- 6,214
I chipped a knife made of INFI. It was a Fusion Battle Mistress. Chopped a stick in half that had some sand on it. Granted it was a tiny chip, but there it was. Personally I believe what INFI does have is a great combination of toughness, edge retention, stain resistance and, most critically, ease of sharpening. THAT is what makes it a great steel. MOST steels can offer only two of those at best. 52100 is close to that magic formula but it lacks the stain resistance. Ditto SR-101 (which apparently is 52100 under another name).
As to why people cant duplicate it I dont know the answer to that. But there plenty of options out there that are just as good IMO. However, very few of them have the mystique and cult appeal of the Busse knives and THAT I believe is down to a very cunning sales model and a LOT of near fanatical loyalty to the brand by Busse owners. Whether or not they deserve that loyalty and slavish devotion is open to debate. Some feel they do, some dont. They are pretty damn good knives though and no mistake.
As to why people cant duplicate it I dont know the answer to that. But there plenty of options out there that are just as good IMO. However, very few of them have the mystique and cult appeal of the Busse knives and THAT I believe is down to a very cunning sales model and a LOT of near fanatical loyalty to the brand by Busse owners. Whether or not they deserve that loyalty and slavish devotion is open to debate. Some feel they do, some dont. They are pretty damn good knives though and no mistake.