Imperial Cuchilleria hecho en Mexico=Imperial Cutlery made in Mexico

[Timstools]

Sheeesshhh! Its a wonder the lights didnt all go out in the Blade Forums Building after posting that little lot

They nearly did, I had this horrible warning come up telling me I was only allowed to do 10 at one time. Thats why you will see I have split them up in seperate posts.
Regards Tim

 

[Codger_64]

I'm bringing this interesting story back to the top. When I get time I will add Larry303's pictures from another current thread.

 

[Codger_64]

G'day Codger, you mentioned my Imperial Hecho en Mexico Salesman's samples <photo attached of the 22 samples I have>....
So far we have been able to glean the following info re their history.....<the 'Imperial Heco en Mexico' and 'Cuchilleria Imperial Mexico' <Cuchilleria = Cutlery> tang stamping would seem to be very scarce to find>...Patent on Mexican Knife Nov. 1944 issued Xmas Day 1945 Michael Mirando patent.=Imperial Product.
Goins Encyclopedia of Cutlery Markings page 138 under Imperial Knife Company lists 'Imperial Mexico'.

Some info seems conflicting anyway I present it from the various sources....
From the 'Banquet' timeline table fact sheet at Imperial Knifes' Company Inc 50th Anniversary 1916 - 1966 "Imperial Highlights"...<I have an actual copy>..under 1944 'Planning ahead for peacetime,Imperial, in partnership Albert Baer and Henry Baer and the Foster Grant Co, established Cuchilleria Imperial Mexico, its first International venture..

In 1946 Albert Baer, Michael Mirando, Joe Fazzanno and other Industrialists met at a Conference in Monterey Mexico....so possible Mexico production must have remained in Alberts' mind.....then a Schrade collector who has always remained under collector radar never posting but often reading our forum, who lived in Walden/Ellenville environs for many years,& who knew both the Baers' personally..who only wants to be called "a reliable source"...has told me the following by email:

Quote..:'Around 1958 or thereabouts Albert Baer and Joe Foster Grant of the sunglasses Co. went to Monteray Mexico..they subsequently purchased the knife factory in a venture of making knives for Sears Robuck but it was short lived as the Mexicans stole the doors off the place and were rolling grinding wheels around and they could not get rid of it fast enough..very short lived..' end Quote.....

Another theory that has been put to me by a very knowledgeable Schrade collector is : 'bringing the Foster moulding machinery in thru Mexico was possibly how 'they' circumvented the Dupont forbidding of the import of the moulding machines to U.S. Apparently Dupont had a lock also on the plastic powder <pellets> used in the moulding process. They may well have been protos for the later/following Imperials. Steel injection moulds are not cheap, then or now.'......

My salesman's samples all have production example numbers on each...I have no idea how many <if any?> actually ever got made...few seem to show up..
One would assume the facts presented in print at the 1966 50th Anniversary Banquet stating 1944 was when Imperial established Cuchilleria Imperial Mexico would seem to be correct as both Albert and Henry would have been in attendance...so make of the above what you will...all very interesting in the Imperial Schrade timelines..

The history how these Imperial Salesman's samples survived in tact rather than suffering the fate of other Schrade artefacts at the infamous ""sale""...history really should be recorded whilst we still can so I supply the following...
Herman Williams has told me personally the following:....'They came from the sample room when Imperial in Providence closed down. I obtained all the Imperials and some other brands of knives that Schrade had, that also came from the Providence sale room....... Dave Swinden and I were in the safe, this was a large room where Albert's wife kept her glass collection, and there was a lot of cutlery related items stored in there...... Dave called my attention to the Imperial Knives..... Dave left me there and I started to go through the box of Imperials from the closed sample room..... I acquired some, however when I got back to NC I found the Mexican Imperials and so I sent the 22 Mexican Imperials back to Dave in the brown box..<I have that brown box in my collection>. Herman continues...'When we were putting the collector knives on display in Ellenville I never thought of those Mexican Imperials, neither did anyone, they were intended to be put up on display but "I just flat forgot' they were in there and remained in that safe/storage room.'...<and thus remained intact...rather than split up and sold separately>.

How interesting are all these Schrade facts/history recorded by those that were there?...who said knives are only boring implements?..Hoo Roo

Moved the regular old timer member way.

 

[delmas2nd]

don't you just love all this inside history. keep the stories coming. i for one enjoy them and gives my small collection more depth. thanks for all the effort, i know this has been said before but one can not say enough for all the great effort put out by some of the great guys in this forum.

 

[Codger_64]

I intended to add a short section from Baer's memoirs regarding Joe Foster but I don't have the file on this computer. I'll add that when I get time. Baer mentions no dates and doesn't reveal a lot of detail. And as several people have recommended to me, take his own narratives with a grain of salt as he was always the consummate salesman no matter what he was selling. Still he seemed to have a mind like a steel trap and didn't appear to forget anything. Ever.

 

[Larry303]

Many thanks Codger. In answer to your question re any other salesman's samples. I have only ever seen one other with the salesman sample Number on the red tape on handle to identify. It was No 5105-P, Toothpick/ Tickler single blade & bale/white handle..... I have a couple of photos of it....have you seen other examples with the identification numbers?.... I know there are a few examples of the knives tang stamped I/Mexico however I have not seen any others with the salesman Number designations on the red tape on the handles.......I wonder if those examples are among the possibly few in number, they actually did sell?....
We've come a long way with recording their history since that first post back in 2007 <8 years ago>...we've managed to flesh out, quash some myths, and in some cases correct, quite a few history accounts in this Forum over past years.....thanks again for your help mate..Hoo Roo

 

[Bloefield]

Most interesting.
Thanks for this.
Harold

 

[Codger_64]

Many thanks Codger. In answer to your question re any other salesman's samples. I have only ever seen one other with the salesman sample Number on the red tape on handle to identify. It was No 5105-P, Toothpick/ Tickler single blade & bale/white handle..... I have a couple of photos of it....have you seen other examples with the identification numbers?.... I know there are a few examples of the knives tang stamped I/Mexico however I have not seen any others with the salesman Number designations on the red tape on the handles.......I wonder if those examples are among the possibly few in number, they actually did sell?....
We've come a long way with recording their history since that first post back in 2007 <8 years ago>...we've managed to flesh out, quash some myths, and in some cases correct, quite a few history accounts in this Forum over past years.....thanks again for your help mate..Hoo Roo

One is glad to be of service. As best I can remember, the others which sold did not have the red tape. Nor did mine. That tape was notorious for adhesive failure and while each of them may have originally had them, they were not present to the best of my memory. I was offered the roll before you bought it but declined for lack of funds, thus I wound up with only the three.

I am under the impression that this was not a salesman's roll at all but intended as a presentation roll for internal use. And the numbers most likely pattern/material numbers correlating to the molds. Unfortunately it seems that like so much of the earlier (pre-1983) Imperial archives, the original papers on this project would up in the dump during the move of machines and materials from Prov. R.I. We are indeed lucky to have this (prototype I think) roll and the examples contained.

As with the Baer memoirs section, the pictures I have of my three are on my other computer and I will have to fetch them. I do note that the missing photos from this early thread the helper mentions 33 knives, I think, while you note 22.

I've not yet compared the molds of the deer head on my Mexico example with the same art on a U.S. Imperial knife to see if it is the same molds. Another think I need to get around to, eh?

In my typical habit of rambling on with a topic of interest, this thread is a perfect illustration of why printed media on Schrade history is intrinsicly flawed. The knowledge of Schrade and affiliates history is constantly evolving and though the content of a printed publication contains information to the best of an author's knowledge at that time, it is often outdated shortly thereafter. We see this with the books authored by Levine, Voyles and Goins. All important references of course. However IMHO the work we do and publish here, and Larry's (LRV's) archive sites are much more valuable and available in that new content is added constantly as information comes to light. Imagine I had printed a book in 2007 (lack of doing so I was recently pilloried for elsewhere here), how much information would have been lacking?

 

[Larry303]

The moulds are similar however not identical....the stag horns show clearly they are different moulds....the USA Imperial is the smaller 2 blade folder....
The full story of Foster Grant and the Mexico connection is told in Albert's own words in his memoirs....together with a couple of photos of the Mexico meeting in 22/9/1946....I'll scan and post.....we're getting closer....Hoo Roo

 

[Larry303]

Albert's personal memoirs regarding the original Foster Grant / Mexico connection.....and the ""modified"" moulding machines..plus under Albert's photo heading 'Fun at a meeting in Mexico 9/22/1946......more interesting history..Hoo Roo

 

[Larry303]

Looks like there may have been a few <very few?> Commercial SFO's <Special Factory Orders> whilst Imperial Mexico still had their factory in Monteray Mexico...maybe a sample/example of a non existant Company intended to be used in promotion of their SFO services?....can anyone make out what Company is being promoted on this handle inscription?...the knife has tang stamping Cuchilleria Imperial Mexico.....an interesting aside is I now notice at least one of my Schrade Factory collection examples has the number <mould number? or Salesman's sample number?> etched clearly on its master blade in addition to the identical number being displayed on the adhesive strip on its handle..of significance?..<.I havn't re-opened the others yet to check their master blades for etches>.....Hoo Roo

 

[Maroochyman]

Thank you Larry for once again entrusting me with another of your treasures . It would of been such a shame to see the Mexico=Imperial Cutlery set broken up.
They are now bedded down in the Maroochyman stable Down Under with the rest of the thoroughbreds.

I'm as "Happy as Larry" ha ha

 

[Larry303]

Good on you Maroochy, win/win situation..my three youngest grandkids all tragically on the autism spectrum receive the benefits/proceeds for much needed therapy.....
I know they are all in safe, Schrade knowledgeable, hands......Hoo Roo

 

[jxr1197]

Hechos Locos!

These are fun to collect - with such little info out there it's like every one is a mystery. Plus there's never any high bidders chasing these Mexican Imperials. I doubt I've gone higher that $10 on any of them.

Here's the whole lot - and I'll break them down by tang stamps too:

In my little group of bandidos here the most common tang stamp is the Cuchilleria Imperial Mexico

Next is the stamp I most associate with these knives - Imperial Hecho En Mexico

The knives with less real estate received the abbreviated - Imperial Mexico

This last stamp was a real mystery to me - Dos Ciervos Hecho En Mexico

The mystery with the Ciervos stamp was that I first found the brown knife and even though I strongly suspected it was a Hecho I couldn't be certain - until that black knife came along. It's got the same stamp but that is a well known Hecho pattern that Baer dubbed the 'Ticket To The Dance'. So that's the missing link here connecting Dos Ciervos to the rest of the Hechos, but of course now the question is 'why'. My theory is it's a south of the border SFO.

Another mystery is the shell handle. How'd that come to be? It suggests a co-production effort between Mexico and Providence with the end product being delivered to a Mexican customer.

The knife with the punch in the top pic is the only Hecho I have that's a triple spring.

The last (and least) picture is that tiny little fingernail picker - just cause it's such a cute lil thing.

Anyone else here into the Hechos?

 

[Codger_64]

Here is a link to archived photos of Larry303's set: http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/Mexican Imperial/index.htm

 

[winchester73]

Codger after reading this and many of your treatise over the years, I have come to the conclusion you are the "The Most Interesting Man In The (Schrade) World. The man in the Dos Equis beer commercial is merely an impostor.

 

[Codger_64]

Appreciate the accolades but...

Here are my three Mexican Imperials. They were pulled from the roll before Larry bought it. So there are more patterns yet.

 

[jxr1197]

.

 

[lrv]

An article Jason has been working on. Some interesting information we havent seen for a while.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/articles/Pottery and Royal Poincianas.pdf

 

[Larry303]

Very interesting article and well researched......Albert Baer mentioned in his Memoirs: Quote : ' Phil Shaler to whom I sold the Mexican Business, and whose Business Arthur Keating :/Owner Ekco Products Co: had purchased and then fired Shaler.'..Unquote ….in his Memoirs Albert stated Shaler was an enemy of Arthur Keating...American Home Products subsequently acquired Ekco products after it was listed on the Stock Exchange....Arthur had previously offered to buy 'Imperial' from Albert..... Arthur Keating died shortly after. Ekco was sold....……..
I wonder how long Shaler owned/ran the 'Mexican Business' as Albert Baer described it....
Albert Baer was the consummate Businessman and his business dealings/tentacles reached most corners of US Commerce including Presidents....amazing businessman/man.....Hoo Roo