importance of locks

M

M Wadel

Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
801
ive been reading on the forums for quite some time now and i just wanted to know what everyone thinks of the locks on folders, is it really that important what kind of lock u have on your folder? have anyone accidentially broken or closed for example a liner lock or axislock? i was just looking at BMs site and i noticed they have a ton of different locks on their folders so which is better or doesnt it matter?
any opinions /mike
 
a couple people on these forums have some real horror stories about lock failures, liner locks in particular.

I can remember somebody's crkt lock failing them and that person ending up with permanent nerve damage and loss of use in their finger.

Lock type is preference mostly, but execution is more important. Whatever lock type you get make sure it's well made, and know it's weaknesses and strengths.
 
Badly made locks are just about the worst thing that can happen to you. I had a few stitches in the emergency unit once because of a liner lock that failed. A *reliable* lock is as far as I'm concerned just about the most important feature of a folder. I'd rather buy a knife with a good lock and inferior steel than a knife with a suspect lock and top-class steel.

The thing is when you're using a slipjoint you *know* you've got to be careful. When you're using a lockable folder you assume you can rely on the lock holding. A knife with a badly made lock is thus more dangerous than a slipjoint, it's as simple as that. A hell of a lot more dangerous.

Hans
 
It is generally thought that the Axis lock is the strongest lock but there are other locks that are strong also. The lock back knives from Spyderco on their Chinook II and their Manix are very strong, as is the compression lock and the ball bearing lock they offer in knives like the Para-Military and the Dodo.
Cold steel offers a very strong lock similar to the Axis lock in their Recon 1 folders.

Many people have talked badly about the liner locks here in the last couple of years and for the most part they are unfounded fears akin to shock jocks promoting end times on the radio IMO although I do admit their have been occassions when a liner lock failed. But I know of lock backs and frame locks that have failed and failed miserably also. For most of the people locks work fine when the knife is used in normal fashions for the job a knife is meant to do which is cut. Of all the thousands of knives sold that are liner locks there are very few reports of ER visits because the locks failed on the user. So they do work for most folks regardless of the horror stories being told in certain circles.

In my youth there was no such thing as a locking folder really. Oh they were there don't get me wrong but no one sold them. Everyone I knew that carried a knife carried a slip joint. Nothing fancy, just an old fashioned pocket knife usually in a three blade stockman or two blade pen configuration.

One day some genius got the idea that he would like a lock on his electricians slip joint with the screw driver after the thing closed on his fingers once again and he put a brass lock in it and it worked. Some of the first liner locks were brass and they worked. I still have one and it still locks up just fine. I think many people have lost sight of the fact that a lock was simply a convenient safety device to help keep the blade on your knife from coming back and closing on your fingers. It didn't mean they didn't fail or get loose or even that it was fool proof. It was just a good safety mearsure. Kind of like other things though progress has made it so that now adays some promote their knives as hard use or tactical use, and they really open themselves up to tight scrutiny when they do this because they raise the bar of what is considered normal use for a knife and for what is expected of the lock.

If you are one that is from the old school where you carried a slip joint most of your life you can most likely be quite happy and satisfied with any lock out there, yes even a simple liner lock. If you are hard and abrasive as all hell on everything you carry get you one of the Axis locks from BenchMade or ball bearing Nested Compression locks from Spyderco or an Ultra lock knife from Cold Steel so you don't hurt yourself. That is about the best advice I can give you on it.
 
I have only had one lock fail me, a lockback. Lockbacks are the only kind that I don't really trust very much. But from a maker I respect, like Spyderco, it wouldn't bother me to use them. The axis lock I use is very strong and definitely my favorite lock, but for maxium real world strength, I only use CRKT liner locks. Before I knew that I wasn't supposed to trust them, I had abused mine relentlessly (wasn't even a super tough model). When I heard about the liner lock issues, I tested it myself, and of course, it passed with flying colors. Now I own two liner lock CRKTs.

Now, this isn't to say I trust all liner locks. I test them myself. But I feel VERY safe around a a good liner lock.

That said, I don't buy liner locks anymore (and I haven't bought lockbacks in a long time). At this point, I'm doing the axis and compression lock thing, my two favorites. They're just better. Really.

These locks are really inferior to the best one though, the balisong. Lock the handles on a titanium handled benchmade and as far as I'm concerned, I've got a fixed blade.

My opinions on locks are extremely unpopular though, though you can look up my testing if it makes you curious. Do your own testing, See what you come up with personally. I'm betting it's going to look a lot like mine. Don't buy into the opinions, including mine. You go find out for yourself.



A lot of folks say that people accidentally close axis locks. They must have been holding the knife wrong. It just will not ever happen, period, the end, if you hold the knife the way you're supposed to. You could use it ten times a day for ten years and it wouldn't happen to you if you hold the knife correctly. Maybe the people with accidents were into "cutting" or something. It seems a lot more plausible to me.

In a struggle though, an opponent might be able to disaengage the lock if it goes to wrestling. So stab them before it gets to that point. Also, watching "normal" people try and operate knives, a liner lock seems like bizarre rocket science. Normal people are too stupid to use locking knives, much less unlock a rare and exotic lock in the middle of a struggle.

I don't want to count on that fact, but I don't consider it an issue. Of course, LAWKS on CRKTs makes this thing a practical impossibility.

And use knives properly and it shouldn't be an issue anyway.

I've got my asbestos suit on, so I'm prepared for the inevitable flaming that won't change my opinion. Seriously, try this stuff out for yourself. You might be surprised. And I might be wrong.
 
As long as one understands HOW a particular locking mechanism works, it won't fail under normal use (assuming you paid more than $15 for a quality tool thats not a design rip-off from the PRC made of melted tin cans). Because you will know better than putting your finger over the lock in a way that will exert pressure to close the lock accidentally while using the knife. If you really must not have the knife ever close, under any extreme circumstances, then a fixed blade is something to consider. On my person I usually have a small stainless slipjoint, a typical 3.5" liner lock, and a balisong, in order of preference from small task to large cutting job.

And yes, Art. Mar., for some bizarre reason non-knife people seem to have a mental block with the manipulation of a liner lock. Although I have a great story about someone who was only used to borrowing my liner lock, and couldn't figure how to close my slipjoint because he figured there "had" to be some lock to disengage before pressing the back of the blade...
 
Haha, great story. That must have been hilarious to watch.

My thing is that people are usually interested in whatever pocket knife I use to cut something. They want to see it, and most of my friends I trust enough that they won't hurt themselves. Then they try and force it shut by putting one hand on the back of the blade and closing their fingers (stupidly) around the handle and trying to fold it. I watch, amused, and then they hold the knife in front of them and examine it. After a few moments, I say something like "You see the bar in the middle? you have to push it across." They usually look at the knife for another 30 seconds, I repeat myself, then maybe 50% of the time they actually see the bar. Then they try and and push it the wrong way (into a further open position?), let go of the bar, then try and force it shut again.

At this point, I give up, and get the knife back, then show them. Even after watching, they have no idea what's going on.

It's so weird how people can struggle with these ideas.

Also, people see me use my axis lock and I show them how. They just *cannot* figure out that you have to pull the lock down. They think it's a button. They just squeeze the bar tighter and tighter and try and force it.

I'm getting a little worked up just thinking about it.
 
STR and Artfully Martial, thanks for the posts. Nice to see a little realism and common sense when it comes to this topic.

I've still got scars from the flamejob I got when I first joined here, when I made the mistake of saying that a properly made liner lock, used with a modicum of common sense, was as safe a lock as any.

STR, I too grew up with slippies, and I think that does make a difference. You learn to respect a knife, and avoid doing stupid things that make you rely on a lock to avoid serious injury. As gun folks like to say, "the best safety is the one between your ears." A firearm safety, or blade lock, should be a last resort against disaster when something goes wrong, and treated with respect.
 
Like Danzz said, most any lock shouldn't fail under normal use given it is a decent quality knife.

That being said, it's more of a convienece than anything else, especially for us lefties.
 
as long as the lock works i am not that concerned about what type it is, i carry a spydie ATR (compression) or a emerson specwar CQC8 (liner) or a extrema ratio fulcrum (lockback) all are good.

i dont think there is anything wrong with a properly made and fitted liner lock, esp. on a custom knife, my emerson and crawford customs lock us well an anything made imho, its on production knives that dont get quite the care/fitting they need that occasionally fail imho, as much as i like EKI there locks will sometimes engage incorrectly after a lot of use, while my specwar liner hasnt moved one iota in 2 yrs. imho BM linerlocks are the best factory linerlocks by far, rarely do ya hear about probs with 1. now CRKT is another story, have seen some that were OK and others that were not OK, not consistant at all,

nothing wrong w/a good lockback either, the ER series of folders are as tough as anything going imho, cant imagine 1 of them failing, nor a spydie.

axis is a good lock, great design, doesnt seem to wear at all from use, that i can see.

the spydie compression lock also seems to work pretty well, I edc an ATR and have had no probs at all with it, or any other compression spydies i have messed with, yet anyway.

the 1 lock design i think is faulty from the get-go is the REKAT rolling lock, its just not a good design imho for a large knife like its used on (ie sifu) nor does its close tolerances lend itself well to mass production, for a EDC knife i would pass on the rolling lock, pat crawfords custom version exempted.
 
STR said:
I think many people have lost sight of the fact that a lock was simply a convenient safety device...
Click to expand...

That is what it *USED* to be, it isn't any more. You don't stick locks on 3/16" and 1/4" heavy ground folders and claim they should be used similar to a small stockman.

There is an entire market of tactical folders which are not designed to be used simply for light cutting and thus the lock isn't simply a safety, it is there to allow the knife to be used for tasks a slip joint can't.

-Cliff
 
I too agree with what has been said so far.

I have liner locks i trust, some i dont at all,i have lockbacks i generally trust these if their kept clean.(Just eyeball the tang lock portion when opening for a reasonable assurance it is clean and free of debris.)

I also had a Rolling lock with the Indraft system, thought it was like the other Axis locks on initial purchase, man was i wrong.
I myself did not feel comfortable with this lock at all,this is my personal opinion only.

Would sometimes not engage fully, sometimes the blade wanted to snap back when opening,just did not feel right for me.(Plus the lock was in a position where my hand sometimes likes to rest,not good, this is not true of the Axis versions for me.)

Now my Axis locks that i own, Simply love them i do, easily manipulated by one hand for opening or closing.righty or lefty.

Smooth action,that is downright addicitive,once you start flipping these opening an closed, it becomes clear,it is a smooth action.

And also, my two cents, The axis locks in My group of knives, is the best lock hands down.

One last thing, someone a while back said that they got thier axis full of sand an it made them dislike it alot, for myself, i cant think of one lock that does operate properly full of sand, and for me the worst feeling is a linerlock full of sand, man that feels gross.

Well, have fun with whatever you choose for yourself, their all ok, if treated with respect and diligence in keeping it clean.


Peace

WR
 
I have had zero problems with a dirty axis lock, so I don't worry at all about getting stuff stuck in it. For really dirty places though, I like a sandwich based liner lock, like my M16. Stuff just falls through it. Would probably work with a compression lock of similar design also.
 
M Wadel said:
i was just looking at BMs site and i noticed they have a ton of different locks on their folders ...
Click to expand...

I suspect that BM would prefer to use their Axis lock on most of their knives, but that probably wouldn't be a smart business decision - some people just won't buy a knife with an Axis lock - period. Also, if the Axis lock all of a sudden got a lot of bad press - deserved or not - that could sink their sales. Offering different locks maximizes the number of buyers that they can appeal to and minimizes the risk that bad product news or changes in customer preferences will sink the company. I suppose all large knife companies operate this way.

For the record, I think that that Spyderco's compression lock is a significant improvement over the liner lock. I've owned and used a lot of Axis folders too and they seem utterly reliable.
 
Cliff as someone else said earlier the best safety on any folder is the one between your ears. Locks are safety features and not full proof no matter how thick or strong and no matter how big and nasty looking the blade may be. I point out that even the strongest folder locks can be accidentally closed by the user during a stressful task of severe white knuckling.

When people forget to use standard safety protocol in the way they use their folding knives and rely on the lock as if it were a fixed blade, forgetting that it is in fact a folder, accidents are more likely to happen. By keeping sight of the original intent of the lock; not forgetting that it is a folder you are using, these accidents can in most situations be avoided.

I guess what I'm saying is that a folder is a folder no matter the lock it may have on it or how strong it may be. The only real way to 100% avoid a blade closing on you is to use a fixed blade if you are stressing the locks of your folding knives that much to where you have to be so concerned with it being defeated to justify carrying it.
 
STR said:
By keeping sight of the original intent of the lock; not forgetting that it is a folder you are using, these accidents can in most situations be avoided.
Click to expand...

Yes, and if you are going to use a folder as if it didn't have a lock you are better off with a radically different blade profile than as found on the knives with the very high end locks.

These are blades designed for different tasks which are much more stressful than light use. You don't stick a 1000 in.lbs lock on a 3/16" blade and then limit its use to a slip joint.

Yes all locks can fail, the breaks on your car can fail to, do you always drive so as they won't work, or do you let the fact that the breaks are supposed to stop your car effect your driving?

Yes, there are security issues, for example when I reverse grip on lockbacks I take care of finger placement, just like when I drive in the winter I know the the brakes are less effective due to snow/ice.

-Cliff
 
thanks for the great response guys. right now i have an emerson mini cqc-7 its my first, well qualityfolder and it has a liner lock. it seems very sturdy to me so i like it, but i suppose its all about the tolerances when they assemble the knife. i always wanted to try a spyderco, a small one and i feel i got to have one :D is there any difference between their high priced models vs the cheaper ones i mean lockwise (if its the same kind of lock)? and soon ill need a BM too i suppose hehe so i can find out for myself whats good. anyway thanks guys.
 
STR said:
Cliff as someone else said earlier the best safety on any folder is the one between your ears. Locks are safety features and not full proof no matter how thick or strong and no matter how big and nasty looking the blade may be.
Click to expand...

I always struggle with what this kind of statement means. Does it mean that if the lock fails, it's no one's fault -- or the fault of the user, who shouldn't have been allowing uncontrolled spine-to-edge or torquing forces on his blade in the first place? If so, doesn't it follow that folders shouldn't be used for anything but very light usage where all forces can be very precisely controlled? As I pointed out in another string, even in fairly easy usage, cutting cardboard or pruning your bushes, it's easy to subject your knives to torquing forces ... so are folders not acceptable for this usage, since you claim the lock is only a safety device?

The fact is, there are many locks that can put up with all kinds of uncontrolled forces. There's no reason to make excuses for the locks that can't -- if the lock was part of a knife promoted for medium-duty use (much less heavy duty or defensive use), there's no excuse for the lock not to be able to handle some torquing, spine-to-edge force, or white knuckling. The knives are designed and built to handle this, and so are the lock on those knives, so if the lock fails in its intended use, it's a failure on the part of the manufacturer.

It is absolutely true that some lock formats are more susceptible reliability problems than others, just like there are different ways to build just about anything, with various cost/strength/reliability/etc tradeoffs. Despite what liner lock apologists say, this format is by far the most susceptible to failures of any format I've ever tested -- and it's the one with the most real-life failure stories surrounding it as well. Not that it isn't possible to build a reliable, strong liner lock -- it certainly is possible. Just a bit harder to do. And remember, this is all a game of probability. No one has ever said that 100% of liner locks will fail (although there are plenty of liner lock apologists who will try to convince you that that's the claim), just that this format fails in disturbingly high percentages.

The deal is this: there are plenty of locks that are strong enough and reliable enough that you don't have to think of them as a backup safety. If you think a lock is just a safety, fine, I'm sure you'll be happy limiting your folder usage to cutting string and opening envelopes. But the rest of us have every reason to expect a lock to do what it says -- lock the blade open and keep it open.
 
I won't add much to the points made here but I feel everyone needs to find their own "happy point".

90% of the time I carry a slip joint. If there's no lock to fail I don't have to worry about it.

Some points to ponder though...

If a gun manufacturer came out with a gun and the safety was proven to be ineffectual in even %25 of the guns produced, or under 10% of the useage scenarios, what would happen? (It would probably be recalled and they could be sued)

Real world failure: I purchased a $500 custom liner lock, was sitting at my desk and cut a string under the surface of the desk. When I raised the knife to close it and put it away it lightly tapped the underside of my desk on the blade spine and closed like a rat trap. Luckily my fingers were out of the way.

Second real world failure: Was cutting some tough line, the pressure of the cut pulling back on the stop pin cause the lock to release, when the cut was made the springing tension off the stop pin collapsed the lock and swung the blade closed on my fingers. Luckily I was not cut too badly because the choil impacted my index finger first, absorbing most of the energy.

Finally, an alternative name for a slipjoint is the sliplock, they do have a lock on them, the back spring. It's the simplest lock on a knife by far. When a liner/frame lock fails there is no tension slowing the blade down, they swing shut like a trap. A slipjoint will actually lock back open in many cases because the blade is under tension to open until about the 40 degree point. In my second failure listed above most likely the blade would have swung back open under tension from the back spring. In this case the "lock" on a slipjoint would have been better than the "lock" on a liner lock.


Bottom line is if you don't have confidence in a lock don't use it, your fingers are not worth it. There are locks I trust and those I don't, I take it on a case by case basis after a thorough evaluation of the specific knife. The only lock I have been impressed with every time I see one is an Axis. I'm also fond of button locks, OTF auto's (nothing to fold), and lockbacks.
 
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