importance of locks

I'll take a moment here to disagree. I don't want to debate it (we already have), but I see more lockback failures than liner lock failures (of which I've never seen). My initial lockback problems were from cheap knives, that could happen with any lock on a poor knife. Now we have a report of two Manixes and one Chinook in a row, one person, failing a light spine whack test in the Strider vs Manix thread. Two other folks have reported Manix lockback failures recently as well.

These are supposed to be the absolute high point of overbuilt lockbacks.

I won't convince you, I'm not trying to, but to the folks new to the locks, don't listen to us, we can't ALL be right. So either I'm wrong or he is, or more likely, there's a shade of gray. Don't take the chance. Test your locks yourself. You can follow my guide lines for testing (specifically designed to make liner locks fail) or you might try Cliff's. (Though Cliff is pretty brutal)

Of course, if I'm wrong, let me know, I keep trying to get people to help me out here, but they only seem to be able to come back with lockback or integral lock (Cliff?) failures.

I don't want a rebuttal. I don't want to discuss this. We already talked about it. Just saying my mind. I want folks to test quality knives and find out for themselves. Then they can tell us.

And yes, Spyderco's high end lockbacks are supposed to be more overbuilt than the low end of things. Really, I trust Spyderco, I feel these are very unusual and isolated instances. But it shows that even with a tough knife from a good company, you need to test the knife (and with my techniques, it shouldn't hurt it at all--provided it doesn't fail, and it shouldn't, mine are pretty isolated to real world sort of pressures). I am also planning to buy a spyderco lockback soon, either a Centofante or a Native. I never want to give people the impression I don't like Spyderco--if these happened to be ER lockback failures, I'd be talking about them. Just happens these are the most recent.

In my mind, lockbacks have something along the reputation of liner locks, and liner locks, though relatively low on my list, I feel are very tough on a quality knife.

New folks, understand that most people disagree with me. Virtually all of them. Most of them even know more than I do. But this is just my honest experience. Their opinions are very valid and worth considering.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Yes, there are security issues, for example when I reverse grip on lockbacks I take care of finger placement, just like when I drive in the winter I know the the brakes are less effective due to snow/ice.
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BINGO.

No one is saying that you should treat a lock-blade knife like a slipjoint; but on the other hand, you do need to remember that it is a folding knife, not a fixed blade. Likewise, you shouldn't treat it as if the lock will fail, but that it can fail.
 
Artfully Martial said:
Now we have a report of two Manixes and one Chinook in a row, one person, failing a light spine whack test in the Strider vs Manix thread.
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Did that poster say it was a "light" spine whack? I got the impression he was going pretty hard (although I would still expect the lock to work in that scenario).

Not saying he didn't say "light"--I just didn't remember it like that.
 
Oh boy. Here we go again. Joe, if a lock isn't a safety device what would you call it?

Like anything, there is a right and wrong way to use a knife. Ok here is where you quote this and type in some remark about cutting back your cuticles again like before Joe :rolleyes: but truthfully; I know many ranch hands, construction workers and farmers that have never had a locking folder in their pocket and they don't limit the use of their slip joint knives at all. In fact they use the $hit out of them everyday. They just know how to use them and work within the confines of what they are capable of doing which as anyone that uses one knows is quite a bit. What in the world makes anyone think that just because a manufacturer put a lock on a folder makes it so you no longer have to use the knife with good old common sense is beyond me to comprehend.

My point is that just because you have and carry a locking folder regardless of the type of lock, doesn't mean you can just let go and forget all safety protocol for when you use the knife. And just because you are cautious doesn't mean you don't use it for more than opening envelopes or boxes either. It also is no indication of 'limits' on what it is used for. Reckless abandon is what I'm talking about which is akin to thinking you can just chime into any old site on the internet just because you now have an anti virus on your computer, or speed down a snowy road just because you have anti lock brakes. It is a false sense of security plain and simple. If you overdrive your headlights long enough it is a recipe for an accident. Never forget it is a folder when you use your knife. It is a good rule of thumb to follow.


As for the who is to blame questions. When I see a good liner lock knife break or defeat, like a good Emerson, or a good BenchMade that are IMO top shelf for liner locks, I have to ask myself is it really the manufacturers problem here or is it really that some bozo that didn't know how to use the knife properly in the first place is to blame because he abused his knife? It is a tough question. I do agree there are times when a knife is just made faulty from the word go. I have had a few of those as I'm sure we all have, so it is important to get to know the knife you are planning to carry and use, especially if you are one prone to 'overdrivng your headlights' when you use it, so to speak.
 
Artfully Martial said:
I won't convince you, I'm not trying to, but to the folks new to the locks, don't listen to us, we can't ALL be right. So either I'm wrong or he is, or more likely, there's a shade of gray. Don't take the chance. Test your locks yourself. You can follow my guide lines for testing (specifically designed to make liner locks fail) or you might try Cliff's. (Though Cliff is pretty brutal)
Click to expand...

Now you're talking some sense. Frankly, in a way it doesn't matter who is right about which lock format is best or worst. I test each and every lock on every knife I plan on using. I test the knives with lock formats I think are reliable (e.g., axis) as much as I test the ones that I view as less reliable. Why? Because even if I'm right about what lock formats are the most reliable, any company can make a manufacturing mistake at any time.
 
STR said:
What in the world makes anyone think that just because a manufacturer put a lock on a folder makes it so you no longer have to use the knife with good old common sense is beyond me to comprehend.
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Different tools have different scopes of work. Ritter for example has his folder by Benchmade intended to be used for batoning. Some tactical folders are designed for back cuts, most if not all are designed for very hard and dynamic thrusting. These kinds of tasks depend on a lock for the knife to be able to do them. It isn't simply a safety device, it is integral to the function of the knife.

-Cliff
 
I agree. They are designed and built to withstand what Cliff describes (never mind what they're marketed to withstand!).
 
After I removed the skin (to the bone) for about half an inch on my middle finger, I have switched to fix blades for most camping chores.

The thing blead for while until I cauterized it with a match.

Damn that hurt! :p

Then again, I was using what is probably a low-end knife.

Lock-failure is not something to take lightly.
 
Oh hey, want another suggestion to cure bleeding like that out on the road?

When ever i hammer my fingers with something, like a hammer or such(Mechanic by trade) and you get them nasty blood pockets under your nails or a real bad cut that you cant sew or deal with asap, try this....

This is not for the faint of heart either but it works well, break the glass on a tail light bulb, the bulb itself not the lens cover. :D

Then twist the wires together into a point, position your injury next to it with pressure an have someone apply the brake lights, the tungsten element without argon to repel the electrons allows it to go white hot, which in turn will burn through a fingernail or seal a bleeder up like the cats pajamas.
Each bulb will only last a few seconds without the argon, but is is more then enough to seal or open you up, depending on your need at hand.

Sorry O/T i know,just thought i'd throw it out there, may help someone one day.

Peace

WR
 
I can tell you another trick for smaller cuts that helps to slow and even stop bleeding depending on the severity. Visine. It is basically a 'hemostatic agent' so it can work to reduce blood flow or stop it at times long enough to get a bandage on it and get to the ER.
 
The only locks I've had fail were on small knives. Both linerlock and lock back. I dont buy knives because of the lock it has.
As does most others, I use a fixed blade rather than risk a problem misusing a folder.
 
WarRaven said:
Sorry O/T i know,just thought i'd throw it out there, may help someone one day.
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That made me cry.

The way I look at the lock debate is, all locks will fail. I've been using lockbacks since my first 110 over 18 years ago and have never had a failure, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

No lock on any knife in my hand has ever failed. I've dropped knives and on impact the lock failed,, but that's an exception to the rule and only an idiot would pick that knife up and start using it again without inspecting to see that the lock disengaged.

I've had some nasty cuts over the years, but never from lock failure. And never from using a slipjoint improperly either.

I think the key to the lock debate (no pun intended) is that a good quality lock will be less likely to fail than a poorly made lock, but it will still fail if used improperly or not taken care of and cleaned.
 
Have scars from my SAK main blade springing close from sudden release of pressure after cutting thru a small 1/4" green branch when I wuz 12 yrs old. Thats when I went looking for a lockback. Got the Bucklite green in 1986!! Never trusted another slipjoint eversince. But even the bucklite lockback seems flimsy, I have had the lockbar rise above the blade when really puching into a cut. Seems the blade is pushing the lockbar out of the lock slot. But never had it spring unlock, so.....

Now I carry Spydie lockback and BM Axis or framelocks or fixed blades. My finger is more valuable than a cheep slipjoint.
 
Different tools have different scopes of work. Ritter for example has his folder by Benchmade intended to be used for batoning. Some tactical folders are designed for back cuts, most if not all are designed for very hard and dynamic thrusting. These kinds of tasks depend on a lock for the knife to be able to do them. It isn't simply a safety device, it is integral to the function of the knife.
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Yes and some are "MBC" rated locks made for taking heavy blows on the spine and yet they still fail as we have seen reported recently haven't we? Which is exactly my point about never forgetting that it is a folder that can still suffer lock defeat regardless of how strong or highly rated you may think it is. Lock failure and defeats are not solely limited to liner locks regardless of how others wish to paint the picture of reality. Any lock can fail for various reasons.
 
I prefer a knife with a lock.
I think that a locking knife is just more forgiving to the small accidents that are bound to happen over time.

Allen.
 
STR said:
Yes and some are "MBC" rated locks made for taking heavy blows on the spine and yet they still fail as we have seen reported recently haven't we?
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No one outside of the very naive believe than any manufacturer has a 100% perfection rating.

Which is exactly my point about never forgetting that it is a folder that can still suffer lock defeat regardless of how strong or highly rated you may think it is.
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No, your point was that you should treat the knife like a slip joint, which is a very different matter. Any tool can fail, I have seen prybars crack, does that mean you should not pry with them?

I have seen hammer claws break off, does that mean they should not be used to draw nails? Tactical folders are meant to be used in such a way that if the lock wasn't they they could not function.

It isn't simply a safety device, it is very different than a gun safety. It is like the locking joints on step ladders. When you lock the joints in place you depend on the locks functioning to allow you to use the ladder.

They are not safety devices, they are integral to the function of the knife and many tasks depend on them to allow the knife to be used. Yes they can fail, this is why you buy one *designed* for that use and evaluate it before you need it, just like with any other tool.

Lock failure and defeats are not solely limited to liner locks regardless of how others wish to paint the picture of reality.
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No one is arguing that, what several people have noted, based on personal experience and the experience of others, is that liner locks are more prone to impact and torque failures.

-Cliff
 
I think the most reliable locking mechanism on a folding knife is the quality balisong. Latchless, naturally. Because as long as you have your hand wrapped around the handle, in any grip whatsoever, you'd have to BREAK METAL in order to fold the blade in toward fingers. There's no parts or springs to slip loose.

Then again I've gotten more cuts from handling a balisong than any other kind of knife, but those are not really lock related.
 
No, your point was that you should treat the knife like a slip joint,
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Absolutely wrong. In the sense of safety it is a good idea to always remember it is a folder and that is what I meant and said. My point was that a slip joint didn't have to be limited in useage and that many people get by with them fine, have gotten by with them for much longer than locking folders and still do get by with them for very heavy use tasks in their everyday lives. The lock was for those times when you did cross the line which obviously happend or they wouldn't be needed. My point is that it is senseless to trust the lock to the extremes of yours and other guys testing methods because they are not real world tests for the majority of locking knives made IMO. All this talk of how the lock is integral to the function of the knife is not true with the majority of the locking knives sold today Cliff. You are using a limited few knives to put all folding knives that lock in the same category or up to the same level on the bar. The knife is meant to cut and so long as you do that the lock will work as it is designed to.

Sticking the lock in a partially split tree limb and twisting it like you do is not a real world test. I do understand that you start out with the intent many times with the makers/manufacturers blessing and request to see what it takes to defeat the locks though so I want to make that known.However, some of the knives you say are used for backward cutting where the lock is integral are few and far between Cliff. Promoting a folder for that kind of fixed blade work is a recipe for trouble when you tell the masses that the lock should hold up that way or it is otherwise a bad lock and I don't care who makes the knife. You are attempting to raise the bar for every lock out there when in fact only a very few tactical type specialized knives fall into the category you keep talking about like it is all folding knives that lock opened.

Another thought that comes to mind is this. Raising the bar has gotten us here to where we are now. Take the Chinook that failed the spine whack test just recently for example. The Chinook: Rated as having one of the strongest locks made, and said to be the only lock to ever max out the lock testing machine at Spyderco. It was tested by you and given a great review. It's lock is MBC rated and yet when someone whacks it as hard as he can on a 2x4 on a bench and it fails/defeats it is considered faulty now and sent back to the factory for evaluation but not before being talked about negatively in public. This is rediculous in my humble opinion and it is primarily because of talk like yours about locks and causing misperceptions of what they can actually do (and other people/manufacturers as well) here and elsewhere that people think this is a faulty lock now in their public view and perception. IT IS A FOLDER! For cryin' out loud people! If you want it to be that strong you are carrying the wrong damn knife. Get you a fixed blade.
 
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