Importance of Morals&Ethics in buying knives?

[b00n]

Alright, so I've been thinking about this a little over the past few days and figured it seemed like a worthwhile topic of discussion, particularly in light of the recent china knives thread.
I figured it could be interesting to branch out a bit more and approach it a bit more broadly.
My idea was I throw out a few (partially real life inspired) hypothetical companies and knife makers and see what people say:
Companies:
Company A - Makes good knives, quality F&F is there, low prices but all their models are hommage pieces, heavily inspired by small makers and established companies, no outright clones but people recognize where the design came from?
Company A.1 - Same place BUT they give (unlicensed) credit (Does that make a difference.)
Company B - Good knives, good prices, F&F, low prices BUT they originate from a country that is known to treat their workforce like garbage, very high likelihood the factory has horrible conditions, and possibly even rumors/images from inside the factory that proof it to an extend?

Knifemakers/Small Shop (1-5 People):
Maker A - Makes good knives but has questionable morals, lied about his personal background for marketing/publicity. All around crappy person by all accounts.
Maker B - Good knives, crappy business man, spotty communication at best, takes deposits, doesn't outright steal, but if you want a refund you need to chase after him for a while
Maker C - Good knives, good business man, good communication, doesn't take down payments, but people hear constantly that he treats his employees rather badly, pays them less than he could. Nothing substantiated but constant rumors that seem to disappear.


Now, the question is, would you buy from them? Would you avoid them like the plague? Would a good enough product make you compromise your moral compass? Are those things not important when you buy a product?

Sorry, lots of text, but yeah, so, does that play into your buying decisions? Or do you just look for the knives you like, decent reviewsa nd a good price, and everything else isn't a big part? Are things more excusable than others?

Personally, I wouldn't buy from any of the companies or makers, a product can't be good enough for me to support crappy people or crappy companies. At least if I know enough about that behavior or business tactics I'll avoid them as much as possible.

And let's not throw out names of companies or individuals, it's not supposed to be Good&Bad and Ugly, but a discussion about how much bad and ugly you can take if it product is good.

 

[marcinek]

How much bad/ugly can I take if the product is good?

None.

Far too many really good people making really good stuff.

 

[danbot]

IBTL!

 

[Astronaut FX]

An important variable to this discussion is just how much time as a potential buyer does someone have to uncover all this level of detail? It’s not like those profiles you made up would appear on the order screen. I suppose that information might be found out through a forum like this one. But you almost always have to take information like that with a grain of salt.

It’s great to talk about how everyone should only spend their money with the most reputable of business people. But the amount of time needed to vet all of that out for everything we buy sounds exhausting.

This is going to be a tough conversation to have here.

 

[Pointy81]

If my money was being used to support an organization that went against my beliefs, then I wouldn’t buy the item. The work environments folks have to deal with in foreign countries are sad, but those same folks still need a paycheck and probably have bills to pay and families to support like we do.
As far as morals go, unless we interview every single person that works at Benchmade, Spyderco, Microtech, etc we don’t have a clue who had a hand in producing our knives.
An unknown serial killer may have assembled your favorite knife.

 

[herisson]

An important thing to consider here is how what you know / happen to discover about the brand / knifemaker will affect your enjoyment of that knife ? My experience is the following and of course Your Mileage May Vary. I own several knives from two controversial brands : XX and XY. I bought them out of different motivations from "blissful ignorance" to "just the knife I was looking for... can't pass". Whatever, while the XX stuff is very affordable and the XY stuff pricier, they all end up as casual users (with good results, as they are quality products) but with zero (or at least, very diluted) excitement. If I compare to this lukewarm feeling the pure joy I experience day after day from using knives bought from extremely nice and enjoyable people, then the answer is clear. Everytime I use one of my knives made by a BF bladesmith, I am reminded of how a nice guy he was while experiencing the perfection of his work. It may need more research, more patience, sometimes (but not always) a bit more money, but, IMO, it is definitely worth it ! In a nutshell : I want no Bad & Ugly in my knives ! Edited at OPs request, no worries, the meaning stands.

 

[b00n]

IBTL!

Always the optimist

 

[b00n]

An important variable to this discussion is just how much time as a potential buyer does someone have to uncover all this level of detail? It’s not like those profiles you made up would appear on the order screen. I suppose that information might be found out through a forum like this one. But you almost always have to take information like that with a grain of salt.

It’s great to talk about how everyone should only spend their money with the most reputable of business people. But the amount of time needed to vet all of that out for everything we buy sounds exhausting.

This is going to be a tough conversation to have here.

That's fair enough of course. Sometimes you buy something before you find out certain things. But would you sell it afterwards, even if you're happy with the knife? Would using it leave a bad taste in your mouth?

 

[Pointy81]

An important thing to consider here is how what you know / happen to discover about the brand / knifemaker will affect your enjoyment of that knife ? My experience is the following and of course Your Mileage May Vary. I own several knives from two controversial brands : Cold Steel and Bark River. I bought them out of different motivations from "blissful ignorance" to "just the knife I was looking for... can't pass". Whatever, while the CS stuff is very affordable and the BK stuff pricier, they all end up as casual users (with good results, as they are quality products) but with zero (or at least, very diluted) excitement. If I compare to this lukewarm feeling the pure joy I experience day after day from using knives bought from extremely nice and enjoyable people, then the answer is clear. Everytime I use one of my knives made by a BF bladesmith, I am reminded of how a nice guy he was while experiencing the perfection of his work. It may need more research, more patience, sometimes (but not always) a bit more money, but, IMO, it is definitely worth it ! In a nutshell : I want no Bad & Ugly in my knives !

I see what you are saying, let’s not forget though, any of us can have our name dragged through the mud if the right person discovers our mistake.

 

[shinyedges]

I see what you are saying, let’s not forget though, any of us can have our name dragged through the mud if the right person discovers our mistake.

Not all mistakes are equal. Not to mention atonement is a huge factor in whether it was indeed a "mistake".

Some of the most detested makers are unapologetic, unremorseful, and continue profiting.

Obviously, the makers background matters to me.

 

[herisson]

Owning up to your mistakes and correcting them can clear a bad reputation. The world of knives is a small world, righting your ways will be known quickly.

 

[Astronaut FX]

I think most people tend to apply stronger criteria to the things they buy that mean the most to them. Most people here are passionate about knives. Do we care as much about the ethics involved in who made our toilet paper? Probably not.

 

[Pointy81]

I think most people tend to apply stronger criteria to the things they buy that mean the most to them. Most people here are passionate about knives. Do we care as much about the ethics involved in who made our toilet paper? Probably not.

Lol!!!! Toilet paper may not seem very important, but it’s one of those things that
“You don’t know what you got till it’s gone”.

 

[shinyedges]

I think most people tend to apply stronger criteria to the things they buy that mean the most to them. Most people here are passionate about knives. Do we care as much about the ethics involved in who made our toilet paper? Probably not.

I don't think we care less, it's just not as apparent. Out of sight out of mind type thing.

 

[Astronaut FX]

I don't think we care less, it's just not as apparent. Out of sight out of mind type thing.

Or do we take the time to make it apparent for the things we care about? It’s out of sight, out of mind for toilet paper, because no one in their right mind visits toilet paper forums. Knives, or some other item that people are passionate about, they take the time to learn.

 

[ArchVV]

I think most people tend to apply stronger criteria to the things they buy that mean the most to them. Most people here are passionate about knives. Do we care as much about the ethics involved in who made our toilet paper? Probably not.

This was my first thought in response to the OP, as well. I know we all buy a lot of knives, but what of the far greater number of non-knife products we purchase?

 

[herisson]

Ethics and quality can be seen as the two faces of the same coin. So maybe, yes, we should care more, even for menial stuff.

 

[shinyedges]

Or do we take the time to make it apparent for the things we care about? It’s out of sight, out of mind for toilet paper, because no one in their right mind visits toilet paper forums. Knives, or some other item that people are passionate about, they take the time to learn.

I haven't done any research on my toilet paper company, nor has anyone brought to my attention that my toilet paper company has done anything nefarious.

On this forum, ugly deeds are regularly brought to people's attention.

Should I find out that charmin toilet paper company is using slave labor, guess what? I'll switch.

 

[Astronaut FX]

I haven't done any research on my toilet paper company, nor has anyone brought to my attention that my toilet paper company has done anything nefarious.

On this forum, ugly deeds are regularly brought to people's attention.

Should I find out that charmin toilet paper company is using slave labor, guess what? I'll switch.

And that’s precisely my point. Who has the time to sit down with their grocery lists, and their DIY home improvement lists, and their back to school shopping lists, etc and research every single item to ensue it meets muster? No one. So we focus on those things we care most about. If we learn about others along the way, we might adjust.

 

[evilgreg]

How much bad/ugly can I take if the product is good?

None.

Far too many really good people making really good stuff.

Agreed, there are plenty of folks that I have no reason to suspect are crappy people, so why should I buy from folks that I know suck?

If you're a douche to someone that asked about patina forming on their knife after one use, I don't need to buy your knives.

If you lied about your fake military background and well, pretty much everything, I don't need to buy your knives.

If you threatened to sue a blogger and copied a rival's design, I don't need to buy your knives.

If you claimed to have a three story knife museum and massive production facility in the US that's actually just a house where your knives from China get shipped, I don't need to buy your knives.

Why would anyone want to actively support bad people?