Importance of Morals&Ethics in buying knives?

[Pomsbz]

I think that all our actions and indeed our lives should be governed by moral and ethical decisions and stand points.

The definition of said morals and ethics is the tricky part. A whole lot of shifting sand under that soapbox wherever it may stand.

 

[Mo2]

quartermaster, strider, microtech, bark river, ganzo, kevin john and other cloners. anything from pakistan, fanatic edge.

There's also alot of custom makers in the good bad and ugly. That are really ugly.

I wouldn't buy alot of stuff based on moral and ethical reasoning.

 

[shinyedges]

And that’s precisely my point. Who has the time to sit down with their grocery lists, and their DIY home improvement lists, and their back to school shopping lists, etc and research every single item to ensue it meets muster? No one. So we focus on those things we care most about. If we learn about others along the way, we might adjust.

I agree researching every detail of every product we consume is unrealistic. I don't think it has to do with caring less though as much as it does it's not in our face.

I'd say I care equally whether my TP is made by shady characters and my knife is made by shady characters. I'd make the same choice to not support them.

The knife is obviously way more apparent on a knife forum. Hence out of sight out of mind. Not researching my TP doesn't mean I care less, it means I have a limited amount of time in the day and my attention is drawn else where.

 

[ChazzyP]

OK b00n , I'll bite before @danbot 's prediction comes to fruition. We all have a pretty good idea to whom you refer, I think, though I won't mention individuals.

Companies A and A.1--The only reason to buy one of these knives is to save money over purchasing the original. I would always want the original despite its price being may times more. The isn't an ethical thing for me--it's a knife knut thing as the knives aren't the real deal.

Companies C--Not naming anyone, but we know you're referring to any one of several Chinese companies that make very good knives that sell mid-tech sorts of knives at production knife prices. At least one of these companies also make knives for other designers/companies here that market them as their own. I'm not terribly interested in such blades as there are so many more made here or in other countries that are great knives. Things like unfair trade practices in general, wages, and working conditions may play into this on a more sub-conscious level, but it's more about just narrowing the field a bit for me than politics or human rights. On the other hand, @Pointy81 's point about those workers needing a paycheck regardless is well taken.

Maker A--We know who this is. I always wanted to try one of his knives and bought one on the secondary market for a good price. I still have the knife and am still undecided about how much I like it (waiting for the lock-stick to break in). There's another maker who comes to mind who qualifies other than lying about his background, but his knives don't interest me.

Maker B sounds like those custom makers who take deposits and take forever to produce the knife, if at all. GBU is full of these dudes, and it seems more a matter of foolishly risking one's hard-earned money than an ethical issue to avoid getting into bed with such an individual.

Maker C's knives would be worth considering if I liked them. Rumor has this hypothetical maker as an a-hole, but lacking any real knowledge it would be just about the knives. In my own day-to-day contracting business, I generally don't deal with a-holes even if (or especially if) they do good work because life's too short to bother, but an arm's length transaction is another matter.

 

[Astronaut FX]

I’m not suggesting you care less about where your toilet paper is made. My point is, you have a passion for knives, so you seek out the information. The things we have less passion for, we prioritize lower with respect to our available research time, so that information remains less readily apparent.

 

[b00n]

Not all mistakes are equal. Not to mention atonement is a huge factor in whether it was indeed a "mistake".

Some of the most detested makers are unapologetic, unremorseful, and continue profiting.

Obviously, the makers background matters to me.

Owning up to your mistakes and correcting them can clear a bad reputation. The world of knives is a small world, righting your ways will be known quickly.

That's a really good point. It could certainly sway me to give somebody another chance, if they screwed up a bunch of times but were open about it, own up their mistakes, apologize, make it as right as possible and then SHOW they changed. Everybody deserves a second chance, a third...maybe not.

 

[shinyedges]

I’m not suggesting you care less about where your toilet paper is made. My point is, you have a passion for knives, so you seek out the information. The things we have less passion for, we prioritize lower with respect to our available research time, so that information remains less readily apparent.

I agree. It also helps when you don't even have to research. Myself as well as many others have been educating others for years on here about the scummy makers.

 

[ChazzyP]

Always the optimist

The pessimist says, "This is awful--things couldn't possibly get any worse!" The optimist says, "Of course they could."

 

[RipD]

I wouldn't knowingly buy from any of them. I also won't buy from anyone who is known to have hurtful or hateful values (ex: people who don't share their views aren't "real" Americans). Maker C I have the least issue with. If he really treated his employees badly he likely wouldn't keep them and therefore would likely not able to produce at a volume that required help.

 

[PirateSeulb]

Company A - Makes good knives, quality F&F is there, low prices but all their models are hommage pieces, heavily inspired by small makers and established companies, no outright clones but people recognize where the design came from?

Currently I would not but 4 or more years ago I would probably have considered it and used that loophole to justify it. I probably would even have questioned why the original maker charged so much as I didn't really understand knives to much.

Company A.1 - Same place BUT they give (unlicensed) credit (Does that make a difference.)

To realize this we would have to be more current at which point I wouldn't be buying them due to the previous moral and/or ethical issues with them and this would just make them seem only slightly less disgusting.

Company B - Good knives, good prices, F&F, low prices BUT they originate from a country that is known to treat their workforce like garbage, very high likelihood the factory has horrible conditions, and possibly even rumors/images from inside the factory that proof it to an extend?

Not sure what country you could me and the only country and 100% refuse to buy from is Pakistan but to my knowledge nothing from Pakistan has good F&F thus I won't buy from them. China isn't far behind more for the reason of the heavy cloning and counterfeiting from China plus the cheap knives come out of China. The thing is though too many knives come from China to let that stop me from cutting them off 100% so either all China makers are off or I would need something to show that this company is using a factory with a proven record of constant mistreatment. I don't see people running from Kizer, WE, or Reate which are all solely Chinese companies. If it isn't either of those countries I am curious as to which country it is.

Maker A - Makes good knives but has questionable morals, lied about his personal background for marketing/publicity. All around crappy person by all accounts.

Yeah I would need a knife so irresistible that I have to buy it to buy from someone I can't respect as a human. I would probably try to buy 2nd hand to keep as little new money from the maker as I could in the case of any must haves.

Maker B - Good knives, crappy business man, spotty communication at best, takes deposits, doesn't outright steal, but if you want a refund you need to chase after him for a while

I couldn't deal with them directly except when something is already complete or would look in the 2ndary market. With out assuming who it sounds most likely someone who is more of an absent minded person than a maliciously negligent person.

Maker C - Good knives, good business man, good communication, doesn't take down payments, but people hear constantly that he treats his employees rather badly, pays them less than he could. Nothing substantiated but constant rumors that seem to disappear.

Depending on the source of the rumors and how well or poorly substantiated this seems like someone I am more willing to give benefit of the doubt to.

 

[HappyDaddy]

I don't do any sort of background check on makers or dealers, but I most certainly consider information that I've come across organically. That's how Strider, Ganzo, Quartermaster, Knifecenter, etc, got on my "no go" list.

 

[marcinek]

But the amount of time needed to vet all of that out for everything we buy sounds exhausting.

This is going to be a tough conversation to have here.

Anybody here has the time and inclination to vet all of that out about knives. That's why we come here. To learn all we can about knives.

And I don't see how it is a tough conversation at all if we stick to talking about "does the moral/ethics of a maker affect our purchasing" and stick to that question and not specific makers, like b00n requested.

 

[marcinek]

Or do we take the time to make it apparent for the things we care about? It’s out of sight, out of mind for toilet paper, because no one in their right mind visits toilet paper forums. Knives, or some other item that people are passionate about, they take the time to learn.

I agree with you about "passion." There are things that I am not passionate about that the ethics/morals of the maker really doesn't matter to me that much.

As for no one in their right mind visits toilet paper forums, I'm sure the members there would say the same thing about a knife discussion forum.

 

[marcinek]

quartermaster, strider, microtech, bark river, ganzo, kevin john and other cloners. anything from pakistan, fanatic edge.

There's also alot of custom makers in the good bad and ugly. That are really ugly.

I wouldn't buy alot of stuff based on moral and ethical reasoning.

And let's not throw out names of companies or individuals, it's not supposed to be Good&Bad and Ugly, but a discussion about how much bad and ugly you can take if it product is good.

Guess I spoke too soon about sticking to the general question and not specific makers.

 

[craytab]

I don't keep associates or friends who are scummy. Sometimes with family it is unavoidable. When buying knives it is fairly easy to avoid buying from scummy companies or makers. So, just like in the rest of my life, why on earth would I support scummy knife companies or makers? The choice seems very simple to me.

 

[Danke42]

I don't keep associates or friends who are scummy. Sometimes with family it is unavoidable. When buying knives it is fairly easy to avoid buying from scummy companies or makers. So, just like in the rest of my life, why on earth would I support scummy knife companies or makers? The choice seems very simple to me.

Exactly, if you live your life by a reasonable moral code you'll not have to agonize over wanting a knife made by a dirtbag.

Now of course at times people will cheat the system. Let's use Strider as an example. They lied to build their brand. They were eventually found out. Many fans of Strider knives bought them before the truth was revealed or they didn't see their history of stolen valour till it was too late.

You don't need to smash your Strider Knives or throw them out since for many user that would be a big hit to the wallet. They definitely should not be celebrated though and the truth about their character should be told and retold to make sure it's not forgotten. As for people who still celebrate Strider like their lies and theft don't matter? Well the colour of their character is as bad as Mick Burger.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/mick-strider-has-some-explaining-to-do.453852/

 

[craytab]

Exactly, if you live your life by a reasonable moral code you'll not have to agonize over wanting a knife made by a dirtbag.

Now of course at times people will cheat the system. Let's use Strider as an example. They lied to build their brand. They were eventually found out. Many fans of Strider knives bought them before the truth was revealed or they didn't see their history of stolen valour till it was too late.

You don't need to smash your Strider Knives or throw them out since for many user that would be a big hit to the wallet. They definitely should not be celebrated though and the truth about their character should be told and retold to make sure it's not forgotten. As for people who still celebrate Strider like their lies and theft don't matter? Well the colour of their character is as bad as Mick Burger.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/mick-strider-has-some-explaining-to-do.453852/

I loved my ZT301. Couldn't keep it after learning the truth about mickey Burger. Even if you don't learn the truth before going in, the choice seems clear to me once you do learn. That is why this place is so great. Education.

 

[Hickory n steel]

I feel like all of these " hypothecitals " aren't, and are actually companies that have been discussed here on BF'S.

I figured knew all of this then I would feel bad to buy from them.

 

[Danke42]

I loved my ZT301. Couldn't keep it after learning the truth about mickey Burger. Even if you don't learn the truth before going in, the choice seems clear to me once you do learn. That is why this place is so great. Education.

Yeah I know how you feel. I have mine and a Strider AR just in a box.

I wouldn't even feel good selling or trading them. I just keep them as a reminder to look before you leap.

 

[b00n]

I feel like all of these " hypothecitals " aren't, and are actually companies that have been discussed here on BF'S.

I figured knew all of this then I would feel bad to buy from them.

Well some of it is loosely based on real people, but again I tried to avoid names, because it's the fastest way for the thread to disappear. Especially when people know who is referenced, there is no need to outright name them. So I'd appreciate the people who did use name, maybe edit them out?