Importance of Morals&Ethics in buying knives?

Generally speaking I have a bias against Chinese knives (yes, even the big name brands). It is mostly an impression of customer service if I ever need to contact them. I expect poor customer service. So, I avoid these companies for now. That could change, but there are enough US and Japanese made knives to fulfill my needs.

Generally speaking if a knife is made outside the US, yes even LionSteel that I really like, I am hesitant to buy except in person or from a reputable US dealer versus some fleabay seller based in LA.

I don't like or support slave labor, but it's a relative thing. I think if a manufacturer pays the going wage rates for that area, I'm generally okay with that. Frankly, this is information I would likely never know regardless.

I look at product and make my decisions relative to that in terms of buying. I don't care about personalities or if somebody is a former felon as long as they treat me honestly and fairly. I don't like to make deposits upfront on handmade knives. But if I talk to them and form a positive impression, I'm okay with that.

Honesty and ethics are big ones for me in business.
 
If I am aware of a company having unethical business or environmental practices, and I have an alternative, then I will do not do business with them. I do not go to great lengths to research every company that produces products or services that I buy, so it's possible that the people who make my toothpaste are evil and I just don't know about it.

Since I am more informed about knives and their makers, I would be more likely to be aware of their business practices, so I would be more likely to avoid the bad ones. But I don't go and do diligent research on everything Buck, Case, or Victorinox or their corporate officers are involved in before buying a pocket knife.
 
b00n said:
Well some of it is loosely based on real people, but again I tried to avoid names, because it's the fastest way for the thread to disappear. Especially when people know who is referenced, there is no need to outright name them. So I'd appreciate the people who did use name, maybe edit them out?
Click to expand...
Oh don't worry the names completely escape me.

Now I'm not so sure I'd care so strongly if the company just doesn't do as well by their employees as they could, I think that's probably just because it doesn't seem very bad compared to the others.
 
If I am buying a custom made knife, I will most certainly research any maker I'm interested in. I would be very disappointed if a custom maker I had bought from turned scumbag. It would devalue the knife in my eyes.
As a collector, it is probably a bigger deal than for someone who just likes to buy and use, sell, repeat.
As for cloners and counterfeiters, I hold the utmost contempt for them, and for the people who knowingly and willingly support them.
 
Environmental and employee safety issues seldom concern me. Generally speaking I feel some countries have gone over board on environmental issues. Is the earth warming up? Maybe slowly, but I doubt we can change that unless there is a "one world government" and that is not likely to happen anytime soon.

Counterfeit knives? Won't buy one if I am aware of it. Clones (designs).... I might, but it depends really on what is being cloned.
 
marcinek said:
How much bad/ugly can I take if the product is good?

None.

Far too many really good people making really good stuff.
Click to expand...
Bingo.

There are enough Makers out there that deserve the support that my dollar will offer to not have to deal with someone that will make me second guess my decision.

I work hard and honestly for my money, I like to support Knifemakers and Knife companies that do the same.
 
HappyDaddy said:
I don't do any sort of background check on makers or dealers, but I most certainly consider information that I've come across organically. That's how Strider, Ganzo, Quartermaster, Knifecenter, etc, got on my "no go" list.
Click to expand...
I know this isn't quite with the topic but what is it about Knifecenter that puts you off a link to a thread or article if acceptable works for me.

But I am happy to see the information that people share here and share any I have, if I have any, but like most things experience of one isn't the experience of all and most will paint a picture that doesn't make themselves the villain.
 
PirateSeulb said:
I know this isn't quite with the topic but what is it about Knifecenter that puts you off a link to a thread or article if acceptable works for me.

But I am happy to see the information that people share here and share any I have, if I have any, but like most things experience of one isn't the experience of all and most will paint a picture that doesn't make themselves the villain.
Click to expand...
The three things that I have read on here multiple times is that they charge a restocking fee for their returns. This is fine to cover labor to check the knife and put it back into the sales list, but when it is a high end custom and the "fee" is over $200, that is unacceptable...

Secondly, they "don't have the time" to check on reports that qrtrmstr is actually not made within the U.S., despite most other vendors now listing them as a Chinese brand.

Thirdly, they have taken back on a return and sold counterfeits as normal product. Likely unbeknownst to them, but they should be educated enough in their own product to know the difference. If they don't check for this stuff why are we paying a restocking fee?
 
PirateSeulb said:
I know this isn't quite with the topic but what is it about Knifecenter that puts you off a link to a thread or article if acceptable works for me.

But I am happy to see the information that people share here and share any I have, if I have any, but like most things experience of one isn't the experience of all and most will paint a picture that doesn't make themselves the villain.
Click to expand...
It's because they list qtrmstr knives as made in the USA. Overwhelming evidence suggests otherwise.
 
I get the restock fee and the selling counterfeit, even if ignorant, but I recall talking about the qtrmstr and labeling and found majority still list them as US made if they list the country and no one list them as Chinese made. I cannot fault a company for listing a knifes origins "incorrectly" if that is what the manufacturer states as the origin. Vendors only have 2 options for listing the origin of a product either don't or list it as stated by the manufacturer regardless of if that manufacturer is lying. I have not yet done business with KC but for various reasons they aren't high on my list of options.

I won't by any QTRMSTR knives due to the fact their origin is questionable at best.
 
It's a tough one. I don't buy a lot of Chinese knives for reasons I won't bore you with.

Recently I was watching an eBay auction for a Primble Stockman that looked like it was going to close at an absurdly low price. I looked everything over, bid on the knife, and won it. It arrived a few days later, and my initial impression was, "Oh oh..." All the right marks were there, Made in USA and all. But, on the back of the master blade was the dreaded Made in China.

So many things wrong here. The seller didn't show the pile side tang stamp, or mention the country of origin. That may have been an honest error, it may have been deliberate. I'd never mistake a Chinese knife for a USA knife if I was handling it in person. But. I thought I was getting a knife at a price that was way below what it should sell for, that's not completely ethical either.

I kept the knife and just tossed it in the User drawer. For twenty bucks, it wasn't worth the trouble to return it. But, I didn't make any effort to contact the seller hoping he'd disclose the country of origin from now on. Does that make me a part of the problem?

Morality is a pit that's hard to dig out of. Every action that a reasonable person takes can be examine and found lacking. The real stinkers tend to stand out, but every once in a while even an experienced buyer can get duped. If you doubt that, I've got a loooong story about buying a counterfeit Gibson SG that I could bore you with. :D
 
No can do. If we're going to talk about morals and ethics we're naming names.

Anyone is free to name companies from the good side of the pews too.
 
Hickory n steel said:
I feel like all of these " hypothecitals " aren't, and are actually companies that have been discussed here on BF'S.

I figured knew all of this then I would feel bad to buy from them.
Click to expand...

:confused: Heh? I'm confused.

Clarify please.

If you knew something about a makers morals or ethics that you objected to, would you or would you not buy a knife they made?

That is the question being discussed.
 
b00n said:
Well some of it is loosely based on real people, but again I tried to avoid names, because it's the fastest way for the thread to disappear. Especially when people know who is referenced, there is no need to outright name them. So I'd appreciate the people who did use name, maybe edit them out?
Click to expand...

:thumbsup: As you said, it is perfectly easy to discuss the topic without naming specific examples. And, as you said, naming specific examples is the quickest way for this thread to turn into a dumpster fire of butthurt.

The character of a maker matters as much as the quality of the knife to me. "Made by a bad person" is a deal breaker.
 
PirateSeulb said:
I know this isn't quite with the topic but what is it about Knifecenter that puts you off a link to a thread or article if acceptable works for me.

But I am happy to see the information that people share here and share any I have, if I have any, but like most things experience of one isn't the experience of all and most will paint a picture that doesn't make themselves the villain.
Click to expand...

It's the Quartermaster thing. The issue of dealers advertising them as USA Made came to the forefront here a couple of years ago. BHQ, New Graham, and GP Knives, for example, stopped including Country of Origin info for them at that time. Knifecenter essentially took the position that it couldn't be bothered to confirm the information that Quartermaster was giving them and continues to list them as USA Made. (FWIW, the law applies equally to manufacturers and dealers with regard to falsely advertising products as USA Made).
 
Last edited:
I don't let that affect my purchases. I used to, but then I found that there's a lot not to like about a lot of high end companies and makers that I follow. I wouldn't own most of my collection if I cared about the maker's IP theft habits, abhorrent beliefs, or general unpleasantness.
 
I very much like to see the country of origin listed by a retailer. A few years ago I was looking at a CRKT Razel folder in as store and the knife is not marked as to country of origin. After buying, I noticed that the China was listed on the box. I don't consider that dishonest per se but you had to almost buy the knife to know for sure. Who asks to see the box before you buy? This was before I had much experience looking at CRKT stuff. I now assume that whatever they produce is done in China. I would have still purchased the knife regardless. Have three Razels made by CRKT actually now. Use them for work stuff.
 
Actually, I don't think you need to elevate this question to one of moral and ethical considerations. At least the small maker group of scenarios are sufficiently answered by "caveat emptor". If the maker is this lousy of a business man, why would you want to deal with them? Any maker who is as flaky as detailed here would not get my business a second time, ever. I don't care how pretty, trendy, or "valuable" their product is. Too many good makers out there who will bend over backwards to see you are happy and talking up their products.

As has been pointed out by others, a lot of these scenarios require a great deal of in depth knowledge. Much of it only available to members on a forum such as this one. But even on this forum, one needs to be careful as to the accuracy and intent of the posters. We have all seen postings of a member trashing a manufacturer or a retailer, or other member on the exchange because of some perceived transgression. Many are accurate but some are not and falsely represent the other party who is often not there to defend themselves.

With regards to specifics of the scenarios offered, here is the other side of the coin to ponder.

Buying from a country who reportedly allows horrible working conditions by some of their manufacturers - 3 points.
1. Some manufacturers is not all manufacturers. How do you know the manufacturer you are talking about is doing such things? Most all can agree China has some very good to great manufacturers for knives now. Along with the sweat shop variety. Painting all guilty by association of operating out of the same country is sloppy thinking. If you know they are using slave labor, don't buy from them and spread the word.

2. By what standard are you measuring bad working conditions? Yes, there are factories using child labor, yes, there are long hours, unsafe conditions, etc. The USA had the same thing no more than 100 years ago. Making that judgement requires knowledge of what the conditions and standards are in the country you are talking about. Working for a dollar a day sounds hideous to us, but does it sound so bad if you can feed yourself there for $0.25 a day? That may be a good standard of living at the present time in that country. Mind you , I am not condoning these actions, I am saying they need to be viewed in context.

3. There is also the argument that if we, as a developed nation do not buy from poorer nations and help them build and develop their economy, we are in effect helping to keep the workforce caged in horrendous working conditions. Economic growth leads to more opportunities for everyone. With more opportunity, you get the ability to improve your own situation.

Buying from a manufacturer in developed nations who treats their workers badly
The same issues above hold, but there is a different set of factors working here. There are far more opportunities for employment here than in undeveloped nations. While the above scenario often hinges on abuse where the workers have very few job options and are forced to take it or starve. Not nearly so here although it can certainly feel that way at times. If workers are being treated badly (here), they have the ability to quit and find another job. That they continue to stay and be abused is as much on them as it is on the A hole employer. And yes I know it is not as cut and dried as that. As one who has been trapped in a job for years, I can say, leaving is always an option, but not always a good one.

Overall, there are are plenty of great makers out there who value their customers and treat them as such. If you are dealing with a bad one, they will show their hand sooner or later. Don't like to be treated like that? Don't buy from them ever again. You have personal knowledge and experience to guide you. Pass the word on the forum, but do so in a constructive and honest way. I am sure members appreciate info on makers and sellers, if only to use it to factor in their own purchases or sales. But no one appreciates a hatchet job. 10 paragraphs ranting about how the manufacturer wouldn't fix the edge grind that was 3 microns off dead center on a handmade knife you purchased, says more about you than the manufacturer.
 
b00n said:
Well some of it is loosely based on real people, but again I tried to avoid names, because it's the fastest way for the thread to disappear. Especially when people know who is referenced, there is no need to outright name them. So I'd appreciate the people who did use name, maybe edit them out?
Click to expand...
Edited mine at your request.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top