In defense of the poor fish

I am an avid catch and release fisherman and cringe when I see huge stringers of bass killed to eat. I do catch and eat fish but most of the time not bass, I usually release all that I catch unless there are slot limits in the particular body of water I am fishing. I also fly fish for trout and release most of what I catch. I do not use live bait at all when I am planning on releasing my catch.

I have no idea about the morality of my fishing practices, it is legal and I enjoy it. I also very much enjoy shooting rats, crows, starlings and english sparrows for fun, I am not quite sure what that says about me either. Chris
 
No doubt fish feel pain, everything no doubt feels pain. The reality is that I have to eat, and the laws of the food chain must prevail. I have slaughtered, hunted and killed my fair share of protein in its different forms.

When it comes to fishing, I often gut and clean right after I have caught what I need. Many folks load up the stringer and drag it behind the boat all day. I prefer to take the cooler with ice packs (need to keep the beer cold in the boat anyways). So when I catch a nice one, it quickly subcomes to the blade before going into the cooler. This chills the meat fast, and in warm weather fish meat quality reduces very quckly.
 
ok, I've heard a few people agree that fish feel pain, but from what I've heard, fish don't have the part of the brain that registers/decodes/feels pain, therefore they just know something is wrong and there instinct to survive kicks in, thus they fight and put up a struggle.

Example:

If fish can feel pain, then how can you catch them on a hook without them fighting? There are a few people who fish with 1/2lb. test fishing line, and flies or other small lures, and they actually catch decent sized fish. How are they able to? When the fish takes the lure, they let them have it, then when they settle back into there "spot" they put just enough pressure on the line to set the hook, but the fish do not fight because they don't jerk them enough for them to know they are caught. Then, they slowly reel the fish to them, and they catch the fish without it even knowing it was caught, or putting up a struggle. So, to conclude, either fish do not feel pain, or they have a very high tolerance of pain, and it doesn't bother them one bit.

Example 2:

Have you ever tried to handle a blue gill? They have very sharp spines all along there dorsal fin, that will easily pierce your skin if you don't handle them correctly. So, if fish feel pain, then no fish would want to eat them right? Wrong! Bass goble up blue gill like I do pizza. They also eat small catfish which also have a sharp spine, not only on there dorsal fin, but there side fins as well. Bass, are not the only example, there are many ocean dwelling fish that eat smaller fish with sharp spines, and sometimes you can see the scars in there mouth from doing so. So, either fish do not feel pain, or they have a high tolerance to it, or else they wouldn't be eating what they do. Bass don't fight because they are in pain from the hook, heck they practically eat hooks everyday, they fight because they are being dragged in a direction they are not trying to go. They know something is wrong therefore instinctively want to get away, there not in pain. If someone grabs me and tries to drag me somewhere, I'm going to fight and struggle. Is it because I'm in pain? No! It's because I'm being taken somewhere against my will.

BTW: If fish do feel pain, WHO FRIGGIN' CARES?! Animals were put on this earth for our pleasure, not for us to worship and allow to overpopulate. In my best Eric Cartman voice "Da** Hippies!".

“Hippies, hippies... they want to save the world but all they do is smoke pot and play frisbee!”

“Yeah hippie, go back to Woodstock if you don't want to shoot anything.”
 
runningboar said:
I enjoy both fishing and hunting, it is unfortunate that most of the people today have no idea where the food comes from and how it is prepared. I wonder how long these people would maintain their moral high ground in the 19th century. Chris
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Another thumbs up :thumbup:, I have worked on farms and in hatchery's and I know where my food comes from. If burgers and steaks werent made for them, and crops werent grown for them. They would be up shit creek.

Animals eat other animals. We are animals....well I am anyway. So its my natural right to eat other animals. Screw Hippies.
 
Go to the PETA sight and read some of the garbage they put out. They even have a comic book about " My Dad Kills Animals" designed for kids. Its hilarious.
 
I too an am avid fisherman and hunter. While I do practice catch and release on most fish, I make it a point to bring home one each time I'm out. Mostly to remind my g/f and her sister that the tasty fish don't come fillet and bagged.

If they think fishing and hunting are cruel, these people needs to open their eyes and see what other animals do to each other. Strays cats around my area play around with half dead squrriels and baby bunnies all the time, i don't see anyone bitching at them.

If we are the same as other animals, then why can't we eat other animals? I don't wanna break the news to my dog that we are gonna start having leaves for dinner.
 
Codger_64 said:
Dog is good. Better than monkey anyway. :D

Runs for shelter.......
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Its about time someone festup:D

I just laugh at this stuff, but you know some of these people can be pretty serious. I remember taking hunting courses a few years ago and the instructors talking about vandalisim that had taken place. And even attemped murders on hunters, keep gear off untill you get in the field, there are some crazy people out there:eek:
 
I remember seeing some propaganda PETA put out a while back called "Fishing: The Neglected Blood Sport"

PETA is proof that a large number of people are out of their minds.
 
No, PETA is proof that young people are idealistic and easily influenced by persuasive adults who have designs on Mommy and Daddy's money. I really can't place a lot of blame on the kids whose closest experiences with the real world and the real animals in it has been Bambi and Shrek movies. Animals can talk didn't you know that? :p

Codger
 
stingray4540 said:
ok, I've heard a few people agree that fish feel pain, but from what I've heard, fish don't have the part of the brain that registers/decodes/feels pain, therefore they just know something is wrong and there instinct to survive kicks in, thus they fight and put up a struggle.
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Fishes lack a neocortex. However, that doesn't mean they do not have the capacity to experience pain. Most invertebrates have nocioceptors ("pain" receptors) but no real capacity for a subjective conscious experience of pain. That is not true of fishes. Fishes not only respond to painful stimuli, they learn from it and can hold the memory of that pain throughout their lives. The lack of neocortex does, however, mean that they don't have to contrive elaborate rationalizations for their indifference to the suffering of other fishes when they eat them.

Example:

If fish can feel pain, then how can you catch them on a hook without them fighting? There are a few people who fish with 1/2lb. test fishing line, and flies or other small lures, and they actually catch decent sized fish. How are they able to? When the fish takes the lure, they let them have it, then when they settle back into there "spot" they put just enough pressure on the line to set the hook, but the fish do not fight because they don't jerk them enough for them to know they are caught. Then, they slowly reel the fish to them, and they catch the fish without it even knowing it was caught, or putting up a struggle. So, to conclude, either fish do not feel pain, or they have a very high tolerance of pain, and it doesn't bother them one bit.
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A thorough examination of fish anatomy has revealed to me that they don't have hands with which to easily remove a hook. They can be hurt by a hook, but not fight it because it is not obvious they are being dragged to their likely deaths. What do you expect them to do? Write adolescent poetry about their suffering? I hope you didn't really think those were the only two explanations for this example.

Example 2:

Have you ever tried to handle a blue gill? They have very sharp spines all along there dorsal fin, that will easily pierce your skin if you don't handle them correctly. So, if fish feel pain, then no fish would want to eat them right? Wrong! Bass goble up blue gill like I do pizza. They also eat small catfish which also have a sharp spine, not only on there dorsal fin, but there side fins as well. Bass, are not the only example, there are many ocean dwelling fish that eat smaller fish with sharp spines, and sometimes you can see the scars in there mouth from doing so. So, either fish do not feel pain, or they have a high tolerance to it, or else they wouldn't be eating what they do. Bass don't fight because they are in pain from the hook, heck they practically eat hooks everyday, they fight because they are being dragged in a direction they are not trying to go. They know something is wrong therefore instinctively want to get away, there not in pain. If someone grabs me and tries to drag me somewhere, I'm going to fight and struggle. Is it because I'm in pain? No! It's because I'm being taken somewhere against my will.
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Or perhaps they eat them because it is less painful than starving to death. Have you considered that possibility? Here you concede that struggling is not the same thing as being in pain so why do you expect fish to struggle in your first example. I hurt myself all the time. Most of the time that pain does not cause me to struggle. It sometimes causes me to say "OW! F***ing s***!!!" but then I go about my business as usual. The capacity for cursing up a storm is not required for feeling pain. As well as lacking hands with which to remove hooks, fish also lack supermarkets at which they can buy nice safe precut food.

BTW: If fish do feel pain, WHO FRIGGIN' CARES?! Animals were put on this earth for our pleasure, not for us to worship and allow to overpopulate. In my best Eric Cartman voice "Da** Hippies!".

“Hippies, hippies... they want to save the world but all they do is smoke pot and play frisbee!”

“Yeah hippie, go back to Woodstock if you don't want to shoot anything.”
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I care. A great many sportsmen care. The pastor of the church I went to as a child would care a great deal. None of the above are generally considered hippies. I imagine you refer to Genesis 1:26-28:

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
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I don't know of any reasonable reading of this passage that would allow you to believe that (a) animals are here "for our pleasure" or (b) that it is acceptable to be indifferent to their suffering. In this passage humans are granted dominion/rulership/stewardship over animals. A good ruler may sacrifice some of his subjects such as happens in times of war, but by no means is he indifferent to their suffering. Quite the contrary a good ruler looks out for the best interests of his subjects. I no longer consider myself a christian, but I do a great deal of respect for the church I grew up with. We were taught to be stewards of the earth and its creatures, not its defilers.
 
Anyone here ever heard of the gated theory of pain? http://www.medicineword.com/gate-control+theory.shtml

Just because YOU think something is painful, please don't lump ALL animals (including human) will think the same way.

For example, I smashed my shin on a river rock one night while camping in high school. I canoe and portaged over 30 km back home. Went to school, played rugby, worked out for over a month until I noticed some pooling of blood in my heel. I went to the doctor and got an x-ray, they told me that I got a fracture on my shin and I was promtely put on a cast. The crinch on the doctors face looked like he was in more pain than I was.
 
I broke my ankle while playing football and kicked two field goals and finished out the forth quarter playing inside LB with three more tackles. I didn't realize it until I took off the tape/sock/cleat and the pain came with a hot flash. It is all perception and event driven.

Also, are there not a number of studies that state fish do not have the ability to feel actual pain?
 
g30ff: Ok, that last part of my post was kinda tongue-in-cheek, no need to quote scripture, I read the Bible. I don't believe in making animals suffer either, but I've just never considered catching a fish to cause them to suffer. I guess if they do feel pain, catching them will cause them some minor pain and inconvenience, but I hardly consider that suffering or torturing them. Heck, people pierce themselves for fun, and we know we can feel pain. I know you probably know a heck of a lot more about fish anatomy than I do, so I'm not going to argue, I just state what I've heard. I also agree with sherlockbonez as that I find it hard to say that an animal feels pain just because we do, like he said, even people differ in how they feel pain.
 
Codger_64 said:
No, PETA is proof that young people are idealistic and easily influenced by persuasive adults who have designs on Mommy and Daddy's money. I really can't place a lot of blame on the kids whose closest experiences with the real world and the real animals in it has been Bambi and Shrek movies. Animals can talk didn't you know that? :p

Codger
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Once brainwashed, their minds are gone.

like the two PETA employees who went around taking animals from different shelters under the pretense of finding homes for them, then killing them and throwing them into dumpsters.

Adria J. Hinkle, 27, and Andrew B. Cook, 24, were arrested in Ahoskie, North Carolina, after a four-week law-enforcement investigation into the illegal dumping of about 100 dead dogs into area trash receptacles. The illegal dumping began around the time PETA arranged with local animal shelters to transport stray animals that would otherwise be killed in area pounds to their Norfolk, Virginia, headquarters, purportedly to find homes for the animals — or, for the ill and unadoptable, to submit them to euthanasia. Instead, according to local media reports, Hinkle and Cook allegedly were in possession of a “death kit” when arrested, consisting of “syringes and two drugs that only licensed veterinarians can have.” Neither PETA employee is a veterinarian. The two would allegedly collect the animals from shelters, and rather than transport them to PETA headquarters, kill them immediately, and dump the bodies.
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http://www.nationalreview.com/smithw/smith200507130830.asp
 
Fair enough. As I said, I fish myself. I do find that some people (not necessarily you) treat fish poorly, believing that nothing they can do can possibly cause the fish pain. That extreme is (to me, animal behaviour grad student with a background in psychology and biology, and reader of peer-reviewed literature on the subject) obviously false. I don't think it is realistic to expect people to handle fish with kid gloves, but there are times when I wish people would at least be aware that their actions have the capacity to cause pain. They may not feel a hook through the lip is quite as painful as we do (you want real pain try having your nipples pierced--that hurts) but when we have readily available options to reduce the suffering we cause I like to see them used as much as possible. When I go fishing I go knowing that I'm going to cause at least some degree of pain for these creatures and I accept that fact and try to minimize it. I think that's reasonable.

I know it can be fun to hate on the hippies, but if we're too flippant about it on subjects like these it just makes their more extreme claims seem credible to regular folks who aren't really involved in the debate (but whose votes still count). My favourite hippy joke is the one from GWAR's Slaughterama:

Q: How do you hide money from a hippy? :confused:

A: Put it under the soap. :D
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
Once brainwashed, their minds are gone.
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I guess I disagree. Sure, Penny and Adrian can cause a lot of people misery in their ignorance, but I was once a young teen myself. I went from know-it-all idealist to a been-there-got-the-hat realist in a few short years. And for someone who was so blinded to what real truths there are in life, I am fairly well grounded in what is true and what is not. I mean really, what do you expect from a kid who's greatest fear is an infestation of butt worms and advocated killing "squishies" while jousting at the windmill to save the "fishies"?

Visit a PETA site and look at the age group attracted. Kids really. Yeah, there are some who stay and buy the garbage spouted until they themselves are the sellers of garbage, but the majority are just your kids and mine looking for a way to express themselves and make their mark on the world by being "different" from everybody else ... like their peers.

I survived the youthful exhuberence of false ideals and crusades, society did too, and I have lived to be an old man know-it-all without the idealist part.

Codger

PS- Besides, I like those nude protests they do at KFC... got their schedule handy? :D
 
LOL. I agree that people should treat them nicely, don't matter if they are to be kept or released.

It piss me right off what some people would do to salmons at this time of year. I've seen people gut them for roe and left to rot, worse still, I saw a guy launched a fish into shallow rapids last weekend, then turn around and high five his buddy talking about a great release!
 
g30ff said:
(you want real pain try having your nipples pierced--that hurts)
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LOL, I bet, and you know this how?:eek:

I have to agree with you I hate when guys hold a bass out for like 10 minutes before releasing it. Pick it up, take a picture, take a look then put it back. The fish doesn't want to hear your opinion on life, let it go for crying out loud. One time I got to the lake just as a bass tournament was ending, and the guy was flinging the fish back into the lake like he was passing footballs, that really ticked me off. Not necessarily because I thought they were in pain, but I do know how stress can kill fish or make them ill, I own a few aquariums, and no matter how gentle you are you can kill some fish from just moving them to different temperature water too fast.


g30ff said:
Q: How do you hide money from a hippy? :confused:

A: Put it under the soap. :D
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LMFAO!!! That one is great. I have a love hate relationship with hippies, some are cool, others just need to be used to start a colony on mars.
 
I practice catch and release fishing for largemouth bass using single hook artificials.
In one pond we caught the same bass 13 times between 2 of us.
How did we know it was the same bass?
A 3rd person razored an X on his side, before the first time we caught him.
He was no worse the wear, during the course of that summer we referred to him as "Old Soremouth" and the spot where he lived as "Old Soremouth's Tree"
Sometimes I wonder about not removing him from the gene pool being a good or bad thing.

OH, and BTW, the broccoli screams too.
We just can't hear it....yet.

:D
 
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