In need of opinion from knifemakers.

I think we (collectors) sometimes forget that knifemakers are operating businesses and must make decisions and enforce policies as such.
 
I own two of Jerry's knives and I love them both. Matter of fact the knife in my avatar and the first one below is identical to the one in question here. Top notch craftsmanship and a top notch guy. He's become a good friend and has shared a good bit of knife knowledge with me over the past year or so. That being said I've known Wudnme for close to 20 years. We met in High School and have remained friends ever since. Nothing he wouldn't do for my family and I.

My advice, buy a McDonald after Christmas. If you don't like it you can give it to me!

I agree with the comments here about the fact that there was just a communication issue. Two great guys and an unfortunate situation, but knowing them both one that will get worked out fine.

Here's the close up of some of his work and also my Avatar.


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im a maker and maybe its just me but if i have a back log that takes a year to clear for the most part i shouldn't so be hard up for the $$ just as soon as i finish the knife that it needs to move out the door.

that said i know things can come up

as stated com. is key
 
First I would like to thank everyone for their input in this matter.

I suppose there is a proper etiquette for dealing with this type of situation
but I am not aware of it.
I have been a full time maker since 1994 and have
had very few unhappy customers. Maybe I have been dealing with
experienced knife collectors during that time, but surely some were budding collectors.

It has been my experience that when I have finished a knife and contacted
the customer that I would hear from them very soon or they would be on the
way to my house as soon as I hung up the phone.
In this case Wudnme was told about 2 months before that
I was finishing a batch of knives and his and his friend's would be among those
to be finished. Also the customer had placed the order for "red canvas micarta" handles
which I was unable to find so I had to have him select another handle choice at that time.
Wudnme said that I should use the same handle material as his friend's knife.
Then on November 6th the knives were ready for the customers to pickup.
Wudnme's friend came by and picked his knife up promptly. So I asked him when Wudnme
would be picking his knife up and he replied that he didn't know. I asked friend if Wudnme
was aware that his knife was ready and his reply was that he had told him the knife was ready.

I think it was about the 3rd of December that I called Wudnme and I left a message
that his knife was ready and that he should give me a call. I had little doubt that Wudnme had
received the message I had left due to the type of business he is in his livelihood depends on him
getting his messages (sales).
I got a call back from Wudnme around the 13th
of December, that is when I told him that I had sold the knife I had made for him.
I would have been happy to hold the knife for Wudnme had he only contacted me.
When you have no interest shown or no communication with a customer
don't you assume it is time to move on. I would have liked to talk to Wudnme
very much but after 30 days of not hearing from him and an ignored phone call
I figured I was wasting my time.

Would you leave your clothes at the cleaners for 30 days after
they are ready for pickup? Mr. Wudnme is in truck sales do you think
he would hold a truck for 30 days with no communication?

I suppose by Mr. Wudnme standards he thinks he waited a long time for his
order but the truth is I have some orders older than his that I would much rather work on.
Wudnme's order just happen to hit when I was working straight knives so
it came through quicker. Ask Mr. Fisk how long it will take for and order to be processed.

I agree that all of this was due to poor communication but I fail
to see where it was on my part.

Thank you very much.
W. J. "Jerry" McDonald
 
To me, it looks like both sides could have communicated better, especially the buyer's side. wudnme should have gotten in contact with Jerry much sooner than a week to 10 days after receiving the phone message from him about the knife being ready. When I sell stuff on BF, if I don't hear back from an interested party in 2 days, I send an email giving them a 24 hour deadline to contact me, and I get ready to move on.

Though I don't think he was necessarily obligated to do so, I think it would have been nice if Jerry left a second message saying that he was going to sell the knife to someone else if he didn't hear back from wudnme by a certain deadline.

Either way, I don't think that this incident would prevent me from ordering from the maker again.
 
Like I said - two sides to every story. Jerry's side is illuminating, to say the least.

Roger
 
Kevin Jones said:
Well I'm not a knifemaker, however you have got my curiosity up.
You said the maker called you a week ago to say it was ready. Do you know when he sold the knife?
Did the maker know your friend had told you a month ago that it was ready? If so, I guess the maker though you no longer wanted the knife since you did not contact him.

I'm surprised you waited four weeks after your friend told you your knife was ready before you called the maker.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jerry, as you answered the questions I had ask wudnme twice.
 
I congratulate Jerry on his first post. Welcome to the bladeforums.

First let me say that I am glad to see a response from Jerry. Per the advise here I sent him an email which read as follows.

Jerry,
I just wanted to let you know of a post I put on Bladeforums.com. I did mention your name for reasons stated in the thread. My intention was to see what some of the veteran knife collectors & makers opinions were. I am a little dissapointed that I did not get the actual knife I ordered. I probably should have contacted you as soon as Ron told me they were ready. I guess I assumed that since I ordered it that it wasn't going anywhere. I certainly would have appreciated a second attempt to contact me with notification that you had an alternate buyer. It's not that I didn't have the money I just feel bad buying myself things when I haven't event gotten christmas shopping done for my family. Several of the posts on the Blade forums mentioned that there are two sides to every story. I don't know if you frequent this website, but I just wanted you to be aware of this discussion there. I am pretty much over being upset about it. If you will agree that you were a little quick to pull the trigger on selling it then I will agree that I waited way to long to contact you. I look forward to hearing from you regarding the next batch of knives. If you recall I wanted red micarta handles anyway, maybe you will have some by then. Please know that I did speak highly of you and your work. I even put a link to your website in my last post.

Hope you have a Merry Christmas.
Sean

whether or not he feels any remorse (I'm not saying that he should) I will take from this experience the lesson learned on communication. It is important in what I do daily. Yes, I have held trucks for alot longer than 30 days. As a matter of fact the last time I found myself in this situation I called my customer 4 times without getting a response before selling the equipment. I have passed up sales based on someone else telling me they wanting the truck and would be back. And these are people that I continue to sell to. My success at this business is not based on a single sale, but how that customer feels about coming back to buy on a repeat basis. I am sad to say that after reading his response that I feel like he would handle this situation no different if it happened again. As for me I think I would rather pay for a knife up front, if I am shopping for a knife usually it is due to available "EXTRA" cash at that time. This was an unfortunate situation for which I take partial blame. I hope this thread will remind a buyer or maker down the road how to avoid the same. I did not at all intend to portray Jerry as a bad person, I certainly hope nobody took it as such. As for adding a W.J.Mcdonald knife to my collection, probably not going to happen. I wouldn't want him to "waste" any more time on a "budding collector" such as myself.

Moving on!
 
I just read this thread and a few points come up (for me at least). It seems that the friend and wudnme placed the order at the same time- not as a group order. Therefore (to me) the onus is on the maker to directly contact the customer, not trust the friend. As well it is not the responsibility of the friend to pass on business dealings between 2 individuals. I have many friends that one has to take with a "grain of salt" so I would have assumed that the maker was going to contact me. When I did not hear from him I would have assumed something happened (handle moved during epoxy, etc.) that delayed my order.
Next is that the maker called just before Christmas to say that the order was done. As mentioned before there are many reasons why one may be away for 10 days. That does not seem excessive to me- especially with only one phone call. To expect that the customer will drop everything to go "on the way to my house as soon as I hung up the phone." is not being realistic IMO. To me the maker sold a knife 10 days after contacting the original customer. Mr Mcdonald asks: "Would you leave your clothes at the cleaners for 30 days after they are ready for pickup?" If I was told by a friend that they were ready and NOT TOLD by the business- yes I would!!

Mr.Mcdonald's response is very aggressive to me, as he accepts no blame for his actions (or lack thereof). It strikes me as odd that the original handle material could not be found in one years time, and that the maker decides that new orders are more important than older orders. If I had a knife on order for longer than this and read the thread it would have angered me a bit- unless of course there were prior arrangements made.

As somebody who is starting to purchase custom knives and hopes to someday sell my own on par with the many makers here I tried to look at the issue from both sides. I see the situation as follows:

The customer did not contact the maker within 10 days of the only phone call.
When told a rumor about completion of the knife the customer did not contact the maker.

The maker relied on a third party to relay information.
The maker tried only 1 phone call to the original customer before deciding it he was being ignored.
The maker sold the knife that was ordered to somebody else within (not after) 10 days of initial contact.
The maker does not work on orders in the order they were recieved.
In 1 year the maker could not find the requested material.
The maker seems to be communicating in a condisending manner and will accept no blame for what happened- instead placing the blame for the maker not contacting the customer on the customers shoulders.

By my reasoning the actions of the maker leave a sour taste in my mouth.
Just my opinion though and I'm sure many disagree with me.
 
Jerry McDonald said:
I suppose there is a proper etiquette for dealing with this type of situation
but I am not aware of it.
I have been a full time maker since 1994 and have
had very few unhappy customers. Maybe I have been dealing with
experienced knife collectors during that time, but surely some were budding collectors.
Click to expand...

If the customers are truly unhappy, you generally don't hear from them...they have taken business elsewhere, and left for greener pastures.

Jerry McDonald said:
It has been my experience that when I have finished a knife and contacted
the customer that I would hear from them very soon or they would be on the
way to my house as soon as I hung up the phone.
In this case Wudnme was told about 2 months before that
I was finishing a batch of knives and his and his friend's would be among those
to be finished. Also the customer had placed the order for "red canvas micarta" handles
which I was unable to find so I had to have him select another handle choice at that time..
Click to expand...

Red micarta would not be my first choice for handle material, but that is neither here nor there. Your experience thus far sounds like it has been very good, with few hitches. I would say that you are quite lucky. I have frequently sent checks to makers when I was told "almost ready", and in some cases waited up to 120 days to get my knife. This would be "unlucky".....but it happens.

Jerry McDonald said:
I agree that all of this was due to poor communication but I fail
to see where it was on my part.

Thank you very much.
W. J. "Jerry" McDonald
Click to expand...

Jerry, you jumped the gun on selling that knife....that just is not right.

No one MAKES you take your customer's orders....but keeping your customers happy is your job. Makers think that they work for themselves....they don't. They work for their customers.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
When told a rumor about completion of the knife the customer did not contact the maker.
Click to expand...

Well, this seems like much more than a rumor to me. And I'm not sure that this whole "reliance on a third party" by the maker removes all responsibility from wudme. They BOTH relied on the third party.

Consider what seems to be undisputed:

1) The knives were in fact completed.
2) The friend picked his up and said he would tell wudnme.
3) The friend IN FACT told wudnme.
4) The friend CONFIRMED to the maker that he had told Wudme.
5) 30 days later, the maker makes a call and gets no response.

I try to put myself in wudnme's shoes, and for the life of me, I can't understand his actions.

Let's say that Peter Gill and I both have a knife on order with Russ Andrews. We both know the knives are to be completed around the same time. Peter gets his and Russ tells him mine is also ready. Peter says he will let me know. Russ KNOWS that we know each other. Peter in fact tells me the good news that my knife is ready. I have no reason to believe that he is lying. And I do..... nothing? Don't think so. 30 days pass and I still do.... nothing? Not likely.

Russ is wondering what's going on so he checks to make sure the message was delivered. Peter tells him yes, it was. The sun rises and sets. A lot. No response.

Russ calls and leaves amessage telling me the knife is ready. I get the message. And I do.... some more nothing? Not likely at all.

Now - would it have been wiser for Russ to contact me directly earlier? Sure. But he had no reason to doubt that the message had been delivered as he knows that Peter and I are friends and he confirmed with Peter that the message was in fact delivered.

Am I blameless? Sitting on my hands for forty days? Don't think so.

Roger
 
I think sometimes the customer simply does not have the funds at the time that they are notified that their knife is ready. Then they are too ashamed to tell the maker.
I go through this every day. Hell, It happens to me also.
Bobby
 
I assume no shame (embarrassment yes) if I can't pay in full when the knife is finished. Since I'm responsible with my money, there must be reasons beyond my control for my shortfall. Nevertheless, I have in effect defaulted on my "contract" with the maker, who has labored and purchased materials on my behalf. This leaves me at his mercy, and whether he decides to give me more time or sell the knife outright is his rightful choice. My bet is most makers know hard times and would be willing to workout a time/pay plan (What say you, Jerry). Some, however, may be experiencing cash flow pain themselves, and assuming their client's misfortunes to compound their own is unreasonable. For this reason I would be disappointed in losing the knife but feel good that the maker got paid and relieved that I'm off the hook. No shame for maker or buyer.

Conversely, if I lost the knife money in a poker game then there is shame. But this is inner-personal shame, since the maker need not know the reasons for my empty purse. The real shame is in my "disappearance", which is simply no moxee to man-up to my indebtedness, my word, and my responsibility to the maker. Heck, even the IRS, who not only will sell my knives but my house and truck as well, accommodates those willing to stand up. And while you may run short at times, Bobby, I bet you don't crawl under a rock and hope "it" all vanishes, then emerge expecting spring time in Paris.

I agree that there are legitimate reasons why the buyer may not be able to communicate and Jerry was somewhat premature in selling the knife in principle. However, those legitimate reasons were not in play here and Jerry had reason to believe he knew that. I admire Wudnme's transparency, but he has no right to be offended at losing a knife he essentially "forfeited." As for Jerry, I advise him to spell out on his webbsite contractual terms so maker/buyer understand the terms at the onset. Agreed, STeven, that makers work for their customers, but not all customers, only responsible ones.

Talk is cheap, and that has never been truer than in this age. In my own case, I had 3 knives by one maker due this July. I called at that time to find the maker mired in personal tragedy. He told me that he would be lucky to get out 75 knives, far short of his customary 200. I had nothing but empathy for this man and found myself praying for him. In Sept and Nov. I took extended hunting trips. Each time I called to let him know my schedule. FedEx now has my beautiful knives and will deliver them this Friday just in time for Christmas. But it's never about just the knives. What could have been a nightmare became a new friend and an endearing story, giving meaning and value to mere stag and steel. Yeah, talk is cheap . . . and absolutely paramount in knives and life.

Merry Christmas
Ken
 
Kohai999 said:
Jerry, you jumped the gun on selling that knife....that just is not right.
STeven Garsson
Click to expand...

Couldn't disagree more.

wudnme had 40 days to contact Jerry and did not. It seems obvious that he lost interest in the knife until he found it had been sold.

IMO, when a buyer orders a knife from a maker when that knife is made to pre-determined quality and specification, the burden is on the buyer to complete the transaction. Not on the maker to chase him down.

If Jerry had finished the knife then called wudnme, and sold it within the 10 days before wudnme called him back; then that would have been jumping the gun.
Let's not forget about the previous 30 days that no one has disputed that wudnme knew the knife was ready.
 
Kevin Jones said:
Let's not forget about the previous 30 days that no one has disputed that wudnme knew the knife was ready.
Click to expand...

I was reading it like the knife had been ACTUALLY finished for less time than that......do I need a tutor?:D

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
CUTS LIKE A KRIS said:
Still can't fathom how the maker was so concerned with his customer that he called ONCE before selling the knife!!
Click to expand...

Have you managed to fathom how the customer managed to do NOTHING for forty days after being informed that the knife was ready? Just curious.

Roger
 
I just can't seem to get away from this thread. Most maker/customer deals go off without a hitch. This makes it comfortable for both parties. One call. One pay. One pickup. Deal done. To have to go back to the customer even for the second time to remind him makes you feel like you have become a collection agency of sorts. If the customer can not pay for the knife in question then he is obligated to allow the maker to move the knife. Plain and simple. If the maker is able to hold the knife for a set length of time for the customer then well and good. For those of you that have a regular job with regular pay, I have this question. Suppose you work all week at your job knowing that Friday is payday and you will be able to pay some bills. Your boss comes around and says "Sorry guys, I am a little short this week and you will have to wait until next week for your check." Without question, that should be the day you start looking for a new job.
 
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