In the market for a hand-forged axe, but does this look "hand forged" to you?

T

Tesseract2112

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Hello! I'm in the market for a "hand-forged" axe and found a site with some styles I like (mainly Dane-inspired), However, they look quite... polished to be "hand forged" to me.

The smiths name is Mihail, is apparently in the Ukraine, and his site is www.ancientforge.com (he's on Etsy too). The issue to my eye is that they seem very uniform, and almost identical to what a site called Odin's Magic sells. The real kicker is that he also sells "handmade" norse-inspired sterling silver rings... for $39. The ring designs kind of remind me of what you see at comic-cons and, at a starting price of $39, sounds suspiciously like chinese-made "silver" jewelry you see on Ebay a lot.

So, I certainly don't want to put down this guy if he is a legitimate small-town forge selling legitimate hand-forged gear, but I just wanted to see if my red-flags were justified in the eyes of more seasoned collectors (I'm new at this)! Thanks for your time!
 
in a few minutes I discovered

The returns section of the website mention sending items to East Hanover, NJ. I know New Jersey is a mess (born & raised there), but clearly it's not Ukraine.

On another note, phone is not US and email is through Gmail. So maybe Mihail is in NJ running a smithery in Ukraine.

I would dig some more before buying.
 
In the original question by the topic-starter there's so much that i find sad and depressing that i'm not sure why i even bother replying...
But i will,with a disclaimer that,firstly,all of the opinions below will be my own solely,and secondly that in no manner any of this is directed at the topic-starter personally,as an individual...

Tesseract2112 said:
I'm in the market for a "hand-forged" axe
Click to expand...

(1).Now What exactly does that mean,"hand-forged" ?!
And why did you put it in quotation marks( i myself do so above for reason of quoting your text)?

Running ahead a bit let me state My view on the subject:
There's NO exact definition of such term.Forging is never done by one's "hand".
It is accomplished by means of some tool or the other.The exact difference between such tools,be it a hand-hammer or a power-hammer or a hydraulic press with closed dies has never been specified by anyone.
There Is a strictly Informal,but (somewhat)widely accepted formula that holds that if the forging was manipulated under whatever power equipment manually,by a living person,that it then constitutes that elusive "hand-forged" principle.
However,that is nowhere near precise to have much meaning,as in the circumstances of say Council Tool where steel stock is fed into assorted machinery by hand...initially,as well as between different stages of the process...and what does that tell us?...

(2).Are you aware,Sir,that the forging process was primarily,with rare exceptions,only the Initial stage of the path to creating a tool?
That forging was inevitably followed by assorted finishing processes,be it Machining(by files in earlier days),Grinding,Sanding,Polishing,and so on?
Very rarely was a forging left with an oxidised,scaled surface;it was so at the very beginning of Ironworking cultures and is still so today...Over 90% of parts that comprise a modern automobile are forged...Do they look "hand-forged"?!(need they?!)

Even at the Forging stage towards the end a number of tools were used to create a not-forged looking surface:Flatters,tools with faces polished to 1000+grit;tools wetted for the resulting steam to blow scale off so it wouldn't indent the smooth surface...all that at a considerable expense in time and energy and tool maintenance...

So how does a "hand-forged axe" Supposed to look,Sir?!
You mention a
Tesseract2112 said:
(mainly Dane-inspired)
Click to expand...
axe...(whatever That is supposed to be...perhaps you mean Type M,in Petersen typology?)
Are you aware that most axes from the viking age,as much as Can be known from the artefacts whose outer surface corrodes first,were ground smooth?

Now lets skip these details and get to the economics of this,something else that i found confusing in this message.
You seek to purchase an object manufactured in,i hate to say this but practically a Third World country.
I must presume that you desire to do so in order to save money(cos last i was aware this country has plenty craftsmen doing this type of work).
Surely you must realise that That is exactly where the potential "savings" may come from,that Ukraine is an unstable economically and politically,(they have an actual hot shooting war going on as we speak,and for the past 5 years(in which a blacksmith by name of Petr has gotten killed soon after it all started,a friend who taught me much about axe-smithing incidentally...:(
Yet for assurances you turn to this august body,a very much an American forum,in a country that has long enjoyed peace and economic stability,a country of Laws,those dictating labor regulations that includes wages of course...but i'm wondering,sorry.
And besides actual laws(but maybe thanks to them in part at least ) this country also has Mores,those that dictate that cheating a mail-order(or any other)customer is just Not DONE...

I agree most wholeheartedly...it's just i see a slight inconsistency there...maybe?..:(

I must ask pardon for bringing up some perhaps not most comfortable issues...but to me at least it's that elephant in the room....
And again,nothing whatsoever personal.
Respect,Jake.
 
jake pogg said:
In the original question by the topic-starter there's so much that i find sad and depressing that i'm not sure why i even bother replying...
But i will,with a disclaimer that,firstly,all of the opinions below will be my own solely,and secondly that in no manner any of this is directed at the topic-starter personally,as an individual...



(1).Now What exactly does that mean,"hand-forged" ?!
And why did you put it in quotation marks( i myself do so above for reason of quoting your text)?

Running ahead a bit let me state My view on the subject:
There's NO exact definition of such term.Forging is never done by one's "hand".
It is accomplished by means of some tool or the other.The exact difference between such tools,be it a hand-hammer or a power-hammer or a hydraulic press with closed dies has never been specified by anyone.
There Is a strictly Informal,but (somewhat)widely accepted formula that holds that if the forging was manipulated under whatever power equipment manually,by a living person,that it then constitutes that elusive "hand-forged" principle.
However,that is nowhere near precise to have much meaning,as in the circumstances of say Council Tool where steel stock is fed into assorted machinery by hand...initially,as well as between different stages of the process...and what does that tell us?...

(2).Are you aware,Sir,that the forging process was primarily,with rare exceptions,only the Initial stage of the path to creating a tool?
That forging was inevitably followed by assorted finishing processes,be it Machining(by files in earlier days),Grinding,Sanding,Polishing,and so on?
Very rarely was a forging left with an oxidised,scaled surface;it was so at the very beginning of Ironworking cultures and is still so today...Over 90% of parts that comprise a modern automobile are forged...Do they look "hand-forged"?!(need they?!)

Even at the Forging stage towards the end a number of tools were used to create a not-forged looking surface:Flatters,tools with faces polished to 1000+grit;tools wetted for the resulting steam to blow scale off so it wouldn't indent the smooth surface...all that at a considerable expense in time and energy and tool maintenance...

So how does a "hand-forged axe" Supposed to look,Sir?!
You mention a

axe...(whatever That is supposed to be...perhaps you mean Type M,in Petersen typology?)
Are you aware that most axes from the viking age,as much as Can be known from the artefacts whose outer surface corrodes first,were ground smooth?

Now lets skip these details and get to the economics of this,something else that i found confusing in this message.
You seek to purchase an object manufactured in,i hate to say this but practically a Third World country.
I must presume that you desire to do so in order to save money(cos last i was aware this country has plenty craftsmen doing this type of work).
Surely you must realise that That is exactly where the potential "savings" may come from,that Ukraine is an unstable economically and politically,(they have an actual hot shooting war going on as we speak,and for the past 5 years(in which a blacksmith by name of Petr has gotten killed soon after it all started,a friend who taught me much about axe-smithing incidentally...:(
Yet for assurances you turn to this august body,a very much an American forum,in a country that has long enjoyed peace and economic stability,a country of Laws,those dictating labor regulations that includes wages of course...but i'm wondering,sorry.
And besides actual laws(but maybe thanks to them in part at least ) this country also has Mores,those that dictate that cheating a mail-order(or any other)customer is just Not DONE...

I agree most wholeheartedly...it's just i see a slight inconsistency there...maybe?..:(

I must ask pardon for bringing up some perhaps not most comfortable issues...but to me at least it's that elephant in the room....
And again,nothing whatsoever personal.
Respect,Jake.
Click to expand...

And I believe in absolute respect your response was made. Your perspective is first person, both culturally and trade-wise plus your unique experience, and the original poster of this question may not understand that your response is true to their initial inquiry. No questions here on my part.

If a forged item is left with more process working marks, does it lend itself to seeming closer to being small operation forged by select individuals and all processes being by hand, without mechanized finishing? If those marks are ground smooth, does it lend itself to seeming more "machined" less than having evidence of roughness or are we asking for economical goods that are still labored over by a single human being, sweating over a fire and an anvil, the return for them being less than the real effort and accumulated experience being applied?

You have mentioned before that a mentor was a casualty of inanity. I am sorry about Petr. (He has a name know in my mind) That is a loss that cannot be replaced. You carry on, in part, in his stead.

"When the trees of Mordor have been hewn, what to make of the axes?
What to make? War."

Thank you J jake pogg .
 
Thank you,Agent_H,for understanding...

These are interesting questions-
Agent_H said:
If a forged item is left with more process working marks, does it lend itself to seeming closer to being small operation forged by select individuals and all processes being by hand, without mechanized finishing? If those marks are ground smooth, does it lend itself to seeming more "machined" less than having evidence of roughness or are we asking for economical goods that are still labored over by a single human being, sweating over a fire and an anvil, the return for them being less than the real effort and accumulated experience being applied?
Click to expand...

There's actually Lots to think about here...one of these things could be well exemplified by that "Pioneer axe" video.There,the tools that are very definitely forged by hand and eye,Very laboriously,are afterwards ground very deeply and thoroughly(which also takes a Great amount of time and work).

It is done for several reasons.One being straight up physics,you cannot very well heat-treat steel the outside of which has been subjected to very high T and for a long period of time(an Olde Englyshe saying:"He who would a good edge win,must forge thick and grind thin").
Another,less direct,is that it was a point of honor with smiths everywhere and at all times to maximally,as much as possible/practical obliterate any and all traces of forging ...

The very competitive tool-making scene in the late 19th c. America is a good example of this accomplishment,there were probably hardly if any tool surfaces with scale or forge-marks on them on any of the tools...

The overt "forgedness" of a tool is(i believe) an intuitive impression;it's subtle,and requires a great degree of informedness,a well-trained eye...It is something many of us like so much that we practice it,for years and years(and are still not 100% at it;i'll speak for myself-i find myself wrong a`Lot:)

It's not a surface-finish,it's the translation,the interpretation of the overall Form of a tool or a part.

One of the most graceful examples of the effect for me was Peter Ross' forging of a compass...Unfortunately i just discovered that one must pay to view that,the actual forging of the tool,but here's a preview:
That,to me,is a quintessential Forged shape...
 
This came in in the interim as I was typing,
droppoint1 said:
Why sir do thou speakest as though thou art king james, and appearest as though a royal hind ass very laboriously and informedness pissething down upon the peasentry?
Click to expand...
from this
droppoint1 said:
ass
Click to expand...
Better sit this one out, yeah?

The idea that the finishing up work on the surface is somehow so integral and as necessary as the forging work, that the one condition leads to the next, is conditional at best based on what we know. Maybe with knife making it is so, it's the subject for another place, and in a certain narrow range of axes. The well known Pioneer Axe film mentioned gives the impression, Grind it. Grind it good. On another hand there is the case of the Wira forge and other examples in particular out of Sweden and Norway where no or minimal grinding ever did take place, hardly exceptions but rather conventional representations. Grinding in the axe production process is a matter subjective criteria. As we've seen the lack of grinding can be indicative of an efficient and skilled forging process.

On the whole though I completely agree that this from the forge surface appearance has little to do with authenticity or historical correctness and more to do with trends and a particular posturing in most cases. Let's face it, it's a matter of taste and there is not much can be said about such matters.
 
Ernest DuBois said:
On another hand there is the case of the Wira forge and other examples in particular out of Sweden and Norway where no or minimal grinding ever did take place, hardly exceptions but rather conventional representations. Grinding in the axe production process is a matter subjective criteria. As we've seen the lack of grinding can be indicative of an efficient and skilled forging process.
Click to expand...


That's a Very good point,Ernest,an older and even a better method,but one requiring more time and skill(though resulting in a superlative product)...You're right,and i was speaking too generally.
However,a skilled finish at the forge normally ends up looking more regular yet:)

As far as this,

droppoint1 said: ↑
Why sir do thou speakest as though thou art king james, and appearest as though a royal hind ass very laboriously and informedness pissething down upon the peasentry?

I speak thus,Sir,for reason that as i stood at the forge these last couple decades the peasantry came by pissething upon my beloved trade by requesting me to forge assorted ill-concieved Hollywood movie props,and at the wages equalling those in China or India,all that as their WalMart tastes dictateth... till eventually i've began pissething right back at 'em...Wileseth away the time merrier,if nought else:)
 
This is a great topic. I am always pleased when it's obvious that an axe or hatchet has either an overlaid or inlaid, forge welded bit. I always considered Hand Made to be either hammer in hand or the axe held with tongs under a power hammer. To include obviously GFB. Is this a smiths view as well?
I learned something interesting in this vein the other day. I was finally able to track down a guy that worked for Snow & Neally. Ricky worked there from '81-'98.
In 1972 S&N acquired some large power (hammers) (power presses?) (Like GFB has). So they started making the whole axe from tool steel then. But prior to '72 for awhile(I don't know how long) they purchased both the pre-formed poll eye and cheek and the pre-formed high carbon bit (from the mid west) and joined them through forge welding in Bangor. They did not not start outsourcing from China till '95! I had this way off and was under the impression that started in the mid to late 80's. I couldn't think of more questions for him. If you guys think of anymore I should have asked let me know and I can call him back. Anyway it's nice to get those tidbits from someone who was there!
 
Yankee Josh said:
This is a great topic. I am always pleased when it's obvious that an axe or hatchet has either an overlaid or inlaid, forge welded bit. I always considered Hand Made to be either hammer in hand or the axe held with tongs under a power hammer. To include obviously GFB. Is this a smiths view as well?
I learned something interesting in this vein the other day. I was finally able to track down a guy that worked for Snow & Neally. Ricky worked there from '81-'98.
In 1972 S&N acquired some large power (hammers) (power presses?) (Like GFB has). So they started making the whole axe from tool steel then. But prior to '72 for awhile(I don't know how long) they purchased both the pre-formed poll eye and cheek and the pre-formed high carbon bit (from the mid west) and joined them through forge welding in Bangor. They did not not start outsourcing from China till '95! I had this way off and was under the impression that started in the mid to late 80's. I couldn't think of more questions for him. If you guys think of anymore I should have asked let me know and I can call him back. Anyway it's nice to get those tidbits from someone who was there!
Click to expand...
Maybe Walt's posts could give you some ideas for questions to ask. https://bladeforums.com/threads/plumb-manufacturing-thread.1066763/page-4#post-17280377
 
Those are some great witness accounts,Josh's in regards to S&N and crbnSteeladdict's Plumb stories...Thank you both,that's excellent info...

Some really interesting thoughts here...just how hands-on Any forging can get?

Just for the record,steel itself(especially the higher-alloy stuff)doesn't like to be messed about with uncertainly...Pecked at,with too little force to accomplish much on any one heat...
Steel likes Authority.Once it's to heat,it's great if all the deformation can be accomplished right then,so excess of power is very good.
Large factory equipment is designed around that very thing,at least in part.
Pressure transforms into T,so the more pressure the longer any given heat lasts,forging maintains it's temp....It's really sweet when it's happening,and again-the steel Likes that.

Long ago,when steel itself was made by hand,still the principle remained.And it was advantageous to get as many guys on those sledges as you could round up...till water-driven wheels came along et c....
But that hand-made steel was very dirty,full of inclusions,and those didn't particularly like to be overworked either...quite apart from the crystalline lattice issues,the silicate inclusions suffered and were opening up and propagating,your iron "brooming out" as they said...
So the name of the game Always was Expediency.
Get it Hot and hit it HARD.
 
Droppoint,c'mon man,don't get your panties all in a bunch!:)
(i loved that King James quote of yours,btw,Way cool!:)

I thought that i made it clear that i don't intend to offend Anyone,wheresoever their class sensibilities may lie...
Seriously,bud,peace!

My syntax Does suck...(and it's not just Laphroaig speaking...(maybe i ought to change the brand of Scotch tho',for posting on here)...No excuse for that,just ain't got aptitude for language...:(
 
Last edited:
jake pogg said:
Droppoint,c'mon man,don't get your panties all in a bunch!:)
(i loved that King James quote of yours,btw,Way cool!:)

I thought that i made it clear that i don't intend to offend Anyone,wheresoever their class sensibilities may lie...
Seriously,bud,peace!
Click to expand...
Don't waste energy answering that guy. You can get some idea about him by checking his former posts. I guess every few months he sobers up and cleans up his trolling activities by deleting all posts.
 
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