In the market for a hand-forged axe, but does this look "hand forged" to you?

Long time ago H.L.Mencken said something like this:"There's just about everything wrong with Capitalism.Unfortunately it is the only thing we have".

I think in at least a certain way this is what we often deal with on here.
There was a time 150+ years ago where the cultural/economic conditions combined to engender this Renaissance of tool-making in US...Tons of companies competing,pushing the development of technologies ahead at unprecedented rate...
Then,gradually,the very use of the tools themselves began to wane...More and more rapidly as Information Age was catching up with everyone.
Eventually it wasn't even worth anyone's time,in developed countries,to be producing any of these tools at all,production being shuffled off onto less advanced economies.
In that process even the knowledge of the Use of tools faded,becoming increasingly obscure...Which has resulted in many a romanticised notion concerning tools,their history,manufacture,everything...
Meanwhile,those less developed places were very keen to play at this cool new toy,the Free-Market Economics and all that,and were happy to respond with products that were Desired,as that desire became more and more vague,obscure,hazy...
Comic books and TV and Hollywoodised history influencing the lack of practical knowledge further,making people's tastes` and notions about hand-tools curiouser and curiouser...

Years ago when i still maintained connections with the collectors and axe-fanciers of Mordor i remember how one well to do and respected collector has ordered himself a Mammen axe from India!:)....(was very much satisfied with the product too).

I'll come to the point,i don't mean to just waste everyone's time here with mad ramblings...and it is this:Here is one of the places where we gather to keep the record straight.
To separate the wheat from the chaff,to preserve what is often a very unique,and important,data,that is rapidly dissolving and disappearing nowadays.
As a result we do at times develop rather categorical opinions,and possibly can at times rub someone wrong...happens...(and i'm heartily sorry for that).
But all in all,i believe that we're doing a Corker job of it here,and Do manage to get along,and really,do ok...
and what we do Us indeed a very valid,important chore,that is already appreciated by many(myself first and foremost),and in the future promises to become even more valuable.
 
Hello Jake! Thanks for the reply, and I appreciate the questions. I also acknowledge your overall point that the term "hand-forging" can mean a whole spectrum of different things, from the single guy/gal who is forging their own steel for their creations all the way to the individual who simply hand-finishes factory-made blanks. So yes, the term is inadequate, but let me explain my intention:

Bottom line, I simply want to know from more experienced members if the items he is describing on his webpage, in the context in which they are presented, appear to be accurate.

For example, the name "Ancient Smithy," the pictures of a small family forge, his profile stating he is a "maker of fine things... student of ancient and dying arts... no blade or tool is the same... etc., and the item descriptions stating they are "handmade" and "custom made and ready for shipment in 1-3 days" all are designed to give the buyer the impression that this is a guy sitting at his forge making all of this by hand and, in turn, the item you will be receiving will be unique and not completely identical to hundreds of others before it.

However, when I consider the incredible uniformity to the items he sells, the wide selection of items he sells, the fit and finish of the items, the fact that identical items appear to be sold on other websites, and, most of all, the price point of the items it all suggests to me, an admittedly ignorant and unseasoned newbie, that these are, in fact, machine-made in a factory.

Now, I don't mean that to be an insult to him and I'm not trying to bad-mouth him or the items he sells. In fact, they may very well be incredible quality and worth every penny he charges. Further still, I may be completely wrong and he (or his team) might very well be sitting at his forge in the Ukraine creating each one of these items by hand. But I just want to know if the context in which they are being presented is accurate, or am I actually buying a "hand-finished" (whatever that means) factory made-in-china item.

So yes, "hand forged" as a term carries a lot of baggage and ambiguity, but there is nothing ambiguous about the context in which he is presenting his items on his webpage. Does anyone know if that context is accurate? Do the items, to your seasoned eyes, look like they have the same level of "hand forge-ness" that you would expect given how they are described?

Thanks to everyone for chiming in!





jake pogg said:
In the original question by the topic-starter there's so much that i find sad and depressing that i'm not sure why i even bother replying...
But i will,with a disclaimer that,firstly,all of the opinions below will be my own solely,and secondly that in no manner any of this is directed at the topic-starter personally,as an individual...



(1).Now What exactly does that mean,"hand-forged" ?!
And why did you put it in quotation marks( i myself do so above for reason of quoting your text)?

Running ahead a bit let me state My view on the subject:
There's NO exact definition of such term.Forging is never done by one's "hand".
It is accomplished by means of some tool or the other.The exact difference between such tools,be it a hand-hammer or a power-hammer or a hydraulic press with closed dies has never been specified by anyone.
There Is a strictly Informal,but (somewhat)widely accepted formula that holds that if the forging was manipulated under whatever power equipment manually,by a living person,that it then constitutes that elusive "hand-forged" principle.
However,that is nowhere near precise to have much meaning,as in the circumstances of say Council Tool where steel stock is fed into assorted machinery by hand...initially,as well as between different stages of the process...and what does that tell us?...

(2).Are you aware,Sir,that the forging process was primarily,with rare exceptions,only the Initial stage of the path to creating a tool?
That forging was inevitably followed by assorted finishing processes,be it Machining(by files in earlier days),Grinding,Sanding,Polishing,and so on?
Very rarely was a forging left with an oxidised,scaled surface;it was so at the very beginning of Ironworking cultures and is still so today...Over 90% of parts that comprise a modern automobile are forged...Do they look "hand-forged"?!(need they?!)

Even at the Forging stage towards the end a number of tools were used to create a not-forged looking surface:Flatters,tools with faces polished to 1000+grit;tools wetted for the resulting steam to blow scale off so it wouldn't indent the smooth surface...all that at a considerable expense in time and energy and tool maintenance...

So how does a "hand-forged axe" Supposed to look,Sir?!
You mention a

axe...(whatever That is supposed to be...perhaps you mean Type M,in Petersen typology?)
Are you aware that most axes from the viking age,as much as Can be known from the artefacts whose outer surface corrodes first,were ground smooth?

Now lets skip these details and get to the economics of this,something else that i found confusing in this message.
You seek to purchase an object manufactured in,i hate to say this but practically a Third World country.
I must presume that you desire to do so in order to save money(cos last i was aware this country has plenty craftsmen doing this type of work).
Surely you must realise that That is exactly where the potential "savings" may come from,that Ukraine is an unstable economically and politically,(they have an actual hot shooting war going on as we speak,and for the past 5 years(in which a blacksmith by name of Petr has gotten killed soon after it all started,a friend who taught me much about axe-smithing incidentally...:(
Yet for assurances you turn to this august body,a very much an American forum,in a country that has long enjoyed peace and economic stability,a country of Laws,those dictating labor regulations that includes wages of course...but i'm wondering,sorry.
And besides actual laws(but maybe thanks to them in part at least ) this country also has Mores,those that dictate that cheating a mail-order(or any other)customer is just Not DONE...

I agree most wholeheartedly...it's just i see a slight inconsistency there...maybe?..:(

I must ask pardon for bringing up some perhaps not most comfortable issues...but to me at least it's that elephant in the room....
And again,nothing whatsoever personal.
Respect,Jake.
Click to expand...
 
Hi Yankee Josh! This is good, I learned something new! I had never heard the term "overlaid or inlaid, forge welded bit" but it would appear there are at least a couple different way to make an axe head. As to which is "better" that appears to still be up for debate (from what I've read online it sounds like forge welding the edge is considered more traditional."

So am I correct that, to your eye, all of these axes appear to be forge welded? Good to know...


Yankee Josh said:
This is a great topic. I am always pleased when it's obvious that an axe or hatchet has either an overlaid or inlaid, forge welded bit. I always considered Hand Made to be either hammer in hand or the axe held with tongs under a power hammer. To include obviously GFB. Is this a smiths view as well?
I learned something interesting in this vein the other day. I was finally able to track down a guy that worked for Snow & Neally. Ricky worked there from '81-'98.
In 1972 S&N acquired some large power (hammers) (power presses?) (Like GFB has). So they started making the whole axe from tool steel then. But prior to '72 for awhile(I don't know how long) they purchased both the pre-formed poll eye and cheek and the pre-formed high carbon bit (from the mid west) and joined them through forge welding in Bangor. They did not not start outsourcing from China till '95! I had this way off and was under the impression that started in the mid to late 80's. I couldn't think of more questions for him. If you guys think of anymore I should have asked let me know and I can call him back. Anyway it's nice to get those tidbits from someone who was there!
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Hi Jake! One more thing, I feel I need to clarify because I think you received the wrong impression. I am not specifically "seeking to purchase" the axe from the Ukraine, I simply typed in "hand forged axe" into my search engine and this was one of the options that popped up (gotta start somewhere, you know).

I have to admit, they caught my eye because I find the designs creative and visually interesting and I liked the finish work. However, the more I looked the more they seemed "mass produced" for reasons I stated above. In fact, it was the low price point that was the biggest red flag to me. Particularly with the silver rings, which seem about $100 below what I would expect a "handmade" sterling silver ring would be.

Again, I'm not trying to pick apart this guys work, I just want to know if they are being presented accurately. I'm considering buying one just to see what they are like, but I'd like to know if I'm supporting a truly "small forge" or if I'm supporting a business who is white-labeling mass-produced blanks. And, hopefully, learn a thing or two about the whole art and industry of "hand forging" in the process. Thank again for your response and your time.





jake pogg said:
In the original question by the topic-starter there's so much that i find sad and depressing that i'm not sure why i even bother replying...
But i will,with a disclaimer that,firstly,all of the opinions below will be my own solely,and secondly that in no manner any of this is directed at the topic-starter personally,as an individual...



(1).Now What exactly does that mean,"hand-forged" ?!
And why did you put it in quotation marks( i myself do so above for reason of quoting your text)?

Running ahead a bit let me state My view on the subject:
There's NO exact definition of such term.Forging is never done by one's "hand".
It is accomplished by means of some tool or the other.The exact difference between such tools,be it a hand-hammer or a power-hammer or a hydraulic press with closed dies has never been specified by anyone.
There Is a strictly Informal,but (somewhat)widely accepted formula that holds that if the forging was manipulated under whatever power equipment manually,by a living person,that it then constitutes that elusive "hand-forged" principle.
However,that is nowhere near precise to have much meaning,as in the circumstances of say Council Tool where steel stock is fed into assorted machinery by hand...initially,as well as between different stages of the process...and what does that tell us?...

(2).Are you aware,Sir,that the forging process was primarily,with rare exceptions,only the Initial stage of the path to creating a tool?
That forging was inevitably followed by assorted finishing processes,be it Machining(by files in earlier days),Grinding,Sanding,Polishing,and so on?
Very rarely was a forging left with an oxidised,scaled surface;it was so at the very beginning of Ironworking cultures and is still so today...Over 90% of parts that comprise a modern automobile are forged...Do they look "hand-forged"?!(need they?!)

Even at the Forging stage towards the end a number of tools were used to create a not-forged looking surface:Flatters,tools with faces polished to 1000+grit;tools wetted for the resulting steam to blow scale off so it wouldn't indent the smooth surface...all that at a considerable expense in time and energy and tool maintenance...

So how does a "hand-forged axe" Supposed to look,Sir?!
You mention a

axe...(whatever That is supposed to be...perhaps you mean Type M,in Petersen typology?)
Are you aware that most axes from the viking age,as much as Can be known from the artefacts whose outer surface corrodes first,were ground smooth?

Now lets skip these details and get to the economics of this,something else that i found confusing in this message.
You seek to purchase an object manufactured in,i hate to say this but practically a Third World country.
I must presume that you desire to do so in order to save money(cos last i was aware this country has plenty craftsmen doing this type of work).
Surely you must realise that That is exactly where the potential "savings" may come from,that Ukraine is an unstable economically and politically,(they have an actual hot shooting war going on as we speak,and for the past 5 years(in which a blacksmith by name of Petr has gotten killed soon after it all started,a friend who taught me much about axe-smithing incidentally...:(
Yet for assurances you turn to this august body,a very much an American forum,in a country that has long enjoyed peace and economic stability,a country of Laws,those dictating labor regulations that includes wages of course...but i'm wondering,sorry.
And besides actual laws(but maybe thanks to them in part at least ) this country also has Mores,those that dictate that cheating a mail-order(or any other)customer is just Not DONE...

I agree most wholeheartedly...it's just i see a slight inconsistency there...maybe?..:(

I must ask pardon for bringing up some perhaps not most comfortable issues...but to me at least it's that elephant in the room....
And again,nothing whatsoever personal.
Respect,Jake.
Click to expand...
 
Tesseract2112,
Thank you for explaining your position so well,you really put it very clearly this time,and i must admit that i share your view and your reservations,based on what we see and read on that site.

He Does state explicitly(in a description of one of the items) that:
"All steps involved in making this axe was done solely with care by hand. No CNC, Waterjet or pre-cut blanks were used."

Which may tell us that it's not the first time someone questions that very thing...

Tesseract2112 said:
Now, I don't mean that to be an insult to him and I'm not trying to bad-mouth him or the items he sells. In fact, they may very well be incredible quality and worth every penny he charges. Further still, I may be completely wrong and he (or his team) might very well be sitting at his forge in the Ukraine creating each one of these items by hand. But I just want to know if the context in which they are being presented is accurate, or am I actually buying a "hand-finished" (whatever that means) factory made-in-china item.
Click to expand...

I'm entirely with you on all this(and envy you your syntax:).

Afraid that i'm at a total loss.I'm familiar with many a small and not-so-small forge in Ukraine and other parts of what used to be soviet block,but never have i seen an operation so...sleek-appearing...
Normally there would be a number of fudgy,very human mistakes and inconsistencies...Descriptions rather obviously google-translated from Ukrainian or russian(and on this site these are noticebly different).
Alloys mentioned are on the odd side,none of the old soviet ones that are still the industry standard there,but instead either legit US/European ones,or some that i'm not familiar with...(alloys Are mentioned in a correct context and all that,i didn't see any obvious discrepancies).
Another oddity is a total lack of any manufacturing details or photos;normally,smiths are rather proud of their facilities,no matter how humble,and there'd be at least Some shots of an anvil or a power-hammer,some process photos,a forging red-hot...peculiar lack of any of that did strike me...

But i find myself grasping at straws,again,i feel exactly as you do,something feels amiss,but i can't put my finger on it at all,and would feel really shitty to wrong an honest outfit based on some vague intuition...:(



It Does say to ask any questions,maybe you can ask to elaborate on their shop facilities/practices?

Afraid that i know no more than you do,wish i could be more helpful.
But i'll tell you what,i'll write Svyat and ask him what's the deal with this particular joint.He may know,and if there's something shady there it'd concern him and his colleagues in a number of ways.
 
droppoint1 said:
This sort of stuff people telling others what to do or not to do;







It appears to me you and others prefer consensus instead of facts and reason and bad mouth anyone who doesn't agree with your nonsense.
Click to expand...
I am sorry I assumed you are just a troll with guilty conscience who goes on cleaning binges. After you posted Agent_H link I realized you are that guy who deleted all posts over Legitimus stamp fiasco. Welcome back. #RIGHTTOBEnotFORGOTTEN
https://bladeforums.com/threads/que...ollins-legitimus.1167434/page-7#post-18273108
 
I don't think anyone here is influenced by the way people type. And I think regulars understand that Jake knows what he's talking about. It just boggles the mind how some people can kinda walk into a room start hurling insults without provocation.

Jake, I admire your restraint and cool headedness.
 
droppoint1 said:
This sort of stuff people telling others what to do or not to do;
Click to expand...
No, no, no, you've got it backwards dpp1
In fact you can look at the suggestion to sit this one out as an invitation to join in when the subject suits you better and you might have something to say with even a tiny bit of content. Really, no passive/aggressive posturing there at all.
 
droppoint1 said:
People like you don't deserve my contributions, pictures, and observations, and with that statement you clearly weren't welcoming or recognizing that I had content up before I deleted it anyway. And who designated you as content god the decider of what is content and what is not.
Click to expand...
Yes, I have no recognition and recollection of any relevant content from you, only heresy that it once existed.The only content parameter as far as I'm concerned is, "Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum". How you choose to present, affirmatively, obliquely, full on contra, it makes no difference to me.
 
Which proves that the content I shared was a waste of my time in the first place. I don't care what content you want or not, or what conditions you want to try to impose to think I have something of value to say. I don't need your validation. Enjoy your positive affirmation virtue signaling, validation, consensus games. And may you all continue to work together to pile on and get rid of any dissenters.
 
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