INFI vs 420HC

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Here it is.

nozh2002 said:
This test is steel edge holding test. So it measure only how rope cutting affects the edge and so cutting as well as measurements happen only in small area of the blade around marked point. I am cuting manila rope and measuring how duller edge came in result.

Thanks, Vassili.
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Length involved is about 1" in both cases. Due to threaded nature on manila rope cross section geometry does not affect impact on the very edge. Both blades were sharpened by me to same hair splitting srarpness - to same edge.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Given my limited understanding of steel, I would think that if you compared INFI at 57 RC to INFI at 59 RC for the purposes of cutting manila rope that you would already be noticing a difference in edge retention, i.e., the softer steel dulling quicker. Your results though make me question your methodology. Perhaps the thread you are now using to test sharpness or the rope being cut is different in some way from that used in the INFI test. Not to split hairs, YUK YUK, but perhaps the test needs to run simultaneously to be accurate.
 
theonew said:
Given my limited understanding of steel, I would think that if you compared INFI at 57 RC to INFI at 59 RC for the purposes of cutting manila rope that you would already be noticing a difference in edge retention, i.e., the softer steel dulling quicker. Your results though make me question your methodology. Perhaps the thread you are now using to test sharpness or the rope being cut is different in some way from that used in the INFI test. Not to split hairs, YUK YUK, but perhaps the test needs to run simultaneously to be accurate.
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Thread is same - from same roll (is it right word?) and I think statistic takes care of local fluctuations.

So far I do not have 57HRC INFI. But even with this you assumption need to be proven too - harder steel may cheap off. Softer steel may bend different ways - just throwing you here some ideas which coming to mind.

Nature of rope cutting is rough and it affect edge differently - you may see in my results it may float in 3 point range from cut to cut (but it is not floating if I do measurements one after another or with delay but without cutting).

I mean rough affect in comparison with sharpening where all pretty much known and stable from grid to grid.

However it is possible that assuming direct correlation between dulling from manila rope cuts and thread measurement as it is for sharpening and thread measurement is wrong for some reason. I hope OldPhysics will join this discussion - he is most Einstein lookin hog here and will say something.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Even thread from the same roll can vary its composition, but would vary less if the comparison was made as the thread was consumed sequentially for both tests. Same with the rope being used.

Yes, harder steel may chip more easily, but I doubt that cutting manila rope could cause much in the way of chipping. But I could definitely be wrong about that.
 
I think it's great that you're doing your own testing, but to state that, ". . . this is more or less fair testing which shows performance. I am not blind fan boy and like to know real difference" sounds like you are comparing two very similar knives, which stands as the most important aspect of fair comparison testing. The importance of blade thickness, edge geometry, and blade length, all play a major part when doing comparisons. You could use a throw-away utility knife with a retractable razor blade and be impressed with how it will slice certain media (like linoleum flooring) better than a Battle Mistress. . . . But the comparison would be of no use whatsoever in determining the properties of the two different steels.

In "LIVE" demonstrations at BLADE Show we cut over 2,770 pieces of one inch hemp rope with approx. 1 3/4" length of a 9 1/2" bowie style blade. We did these tests "LIVE" in order to avoid any misinterpretations of the results. :thumbup:

Here's the important part. . . THERE IS NOT A 420HC BOWIE STYLE BLADE ON THE PLANET THAT WILL COME EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THESE RESULTS. . . . We have yet to find one that will do even close to 5 % of these results. I can assure you that if one existed, the manufacturer of this blade (especially the manufacturer of the one that you are using) would have been more than happy to take us up on our offer to conduct these same tests in "LIVE" side by side comparisons at the Blade Show. That has NEVER, nor is it ever going to happen, with a bowie style blade made out of 420HC. . . NEVER! :D


Cheers ! ! ! !. . . . Let's Drink!!! :thumbup:

Jerry


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theonew said:
Even thread from the same roll can vary its composition, but would vary less if the comparison was made as the thread was consumed sequentially for both tests. Same with the rope being used.

Yes, harder steel may chip more easily, but I doubt that cutting manila rope could cause much in the way of chipping. But I could definitely be wrong about that.
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I did not see chipping so far but both blades scratched quite a bit in the cutting area - impact of the rope is good. It is not deep scratches but they are very well seen on the polished edge I made.

I certainly agree that thread and rope may be inconsistent, but I do not think this is the case here and affect results.

Of course I better eventually repeat this exercise with same INFI and see if it will be the same, but not too soon... I like to try different steels before - CPM 10V, D2, etc...

Thanks, Vassili.
 
Jerry Busse said:
I think it's great that you're doing your own testing, but to state that, ". . . this is more or less fair testing which shows performance. I am not blind fan boy and like to know real difference" sounds like you are comparing two very similar knives, which stands as the most important aspect of fair comparison testing. The importance of blade thickness, edge geometry, and blade length, all play a major part when doing comparisons. You could use a throw-away utility knife with a retractable razor blade and be impressed with how it will slice certain media (like linoleum flooring) better than a Battle Mistress. . . . But the comparison would be of no use whatsoever in determining the properties of the two different steels.

In "LIVE" demonstrations at BLADE Show we cut over 2,770 pieces of one inch hemp rope with approx. 1 3/4" length of a 9 1/2" bowie style blade. We did these tests "LIVE" in order to avoid any misinterpretations of the results. :thumbup:

Here's the important part. . . THERE IS NOT A 420HC BOWIE STYLE BLADE ON THE PLANET THAT WILL COME EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE TO THESE RESULTS. . . . We have yet to find one that will do even close to 5 % of these results. I can assure you that if one existed, the manufacturer of this blade (especially the manufacturer of the one that you are using) would have been more than happy to take us up on our offer to conduct these same tests in "LIVE" side by side comparisons at the Blade Show. That has NEVER, nor is it ever going to happen, with a bowie style blade made out of 420HC. . . NEVER! :D


Cheers ! ! ! !. . . . Let's Drink!!! :thumbup:

Jerry


.
Click to expand...

Scope of this exercise is to see edge retention of steel. I am not comparing blade to blade or knife to knife (it is small Game warden to Randall #1 cheap replica), but steel to steel. Everything is focused on how edge sharpness will be affected by use - cutting manila rope in particular. Also it is not yet known how 420HC will looks after 400 cuts, I am done for today on 60 for sure, and will continue when my fingertips will stop burning...

I still beleave that INFI will do better in long run.

Reason for this thread is to discuss that surprise. May be something wrong with testing?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
yes, especially a photo showing the knock-off in the "fixture" so we can see what, if any, leverage advantage there is.

It sounds like, given the longer handle of the 420 knife, that a leverage advantage definitely exists.

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Are you trying to say that 420 is comparable to INFI? I think you are the bloke that does that wicked sharpening so my hat is off to you for that, but if you are trying to say 420 compares to INFI in any way then in Australia we have a saying for that, "Stay off the cones mate" :thumbup:
 
I'm one of those guys who doesn't mind admitting that I like 420HC better than a lot (not all!) of the boutique super-stainless steels. Done right, its a dang fine all-around steel for a general use knife. Especially where smaller blades are concerned.

That said, I like INFI more. Never tested them head-to-head but it sure seems a heck of a lot tougher and sharpens just as easily.


Vassili- If the blade length on the 420 blade that you are testing is longer than that of the GW then there will be greater leverage, particularly in a fixture (great idea btw :thumbup:) like the one you created. It doesn't matter if you concentrate the cutting on one section of the blade or not; it will still have greater leverage. For an even test of edge retention, the blades must have equal length blades and, at the least, similar profiles.

In other words, to compare edge retention of the two steels, all other non-pertinent and extraneous variables must be controlled to the greatest extent possible.
 
If you like the 420, by all means stick with it. I'd be more than happy to relieve you of any INFI at original purchase price. Please PM or email me to discuss further. I applaud you for going to the trouble of testing both.

Thanks,

GregB
 
Two blades that, while not identical, are more similar would be the Leaner Meaner in INFI and the Buck 110 in 420HC (pics are actually of BG-42 blades though).

I like Buck's 420HC, as it has a good heat treat, but I won't be trading my Bucks for Busses anytime soon.

Pair.jpg


BG42pair2.jpg
 
The man didn't say he that liked 420HC at all; just that he had started some testing, was surprised by the initial results and wanted to discuss them.

Vassili, you say that you don't like the "balanced performance" argument, but many folks here on BF, knowledgeable in metallurgy, will tell you that there is no one best steel, that there are real trade-offs involved in choosing a steel for a particular application. Jerry believes that INFI provides the best performance package possible for a hard use knife. It may be that another steel is better is one aspect of performance. Some steels likely do have better edge retention than INFI, but may be harder to resharpen, or have less 'toughness'. YMMV

Please keep us informed as the tests continue.

btw, I seem to recall that Cliff Stamp believed that 420HC, when properly heat-treated, made for an excellent knife.
 
I'd just scanned the thread and got the impression that he did like the 420. My apologies. I'd love to see a test between the Buck and the GW. One of my favorite Buck folders was a titanium scaled 110.

GregB
 
I didnt notice the "blind fanboy" comment before. :grumpy:

That kinda ruined the whole test....... how can one be objective with that kind of thinking??? :confused:
 
leatherman said:
I didnt notice the "blind fanboy" comment before. :grumpy:

That kinda ruined the whole test....... how can one be objective with that kind of thinking??? :confused:
Click to expand...

I think he is trying to be objective, but he expected INFI to have far better performance. Any time you run a experiment, you have some hypothesis you are testing, and you may have some expectation of the results. Being objective means you don't slant the test (intentionally or unintentionally) to favor a result, and you let the data fall where it may.

A blind fanboy would be likely to never report the unexpected results he got, or would adjust the test to achieve some outcome before reporting.
 
Point taken bro :) I just got a little miffed when I saw that. Guess I'm a blind fanboy. :o :p
 
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