INFI vs CruWear vs SR-101

lmcq784 said:
So if CruWear is the powder metallurgy version of VascoWear, what would that change? I know that CPM-D2 is supposedly quite different from regular ingot D2...
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IIRC it affects the grain structure and distribution, adds toughness...

am I missing anything? yeah. but I think those things are are on the list of benefits. maybe not though.

I need an adult
 
lmcq784 said:
So if CruWear is the powder metallurgy version of VascoWear, what would that change? I know that CPM-D2 is supposedly quite different from regular ingot D2...
Click to expand...
Well, that's a good question which I am sure cannot be easily answered, but, not much in my opinion, but that's my opinion. Cpm sure won't help anyone show that their process makes parts that are mechanically inferior to hot rolled or forged parts. The advantage to cpm is you can make any steel blend you want, fairly economically in small batches. To smelt quality steel from a mill, you have to run a very costly amount before any mill will take your business.

The old way of smelting steel, blending alloys into the molten ladle, pouring into ingots and then hot rolling down from 8"-12" thick ingots to desired thickness sheet stock. Molten metal is a true bond of atoms in liquid form. Then pressing the metal down(hot working/rolling) down to a fraction of it' thickness creates a grain direction. Kinda like wood along the grain vs cross grain.

Particle metallurgy on the other hand is small batches of mixed powdered alloy placed in a hot isostatic press. So in theory and in reality as well, the alloy mix is more uniform than smelting. However, there is no grain direction and I know in other industries where mechanical cyclic strength is critical, this can be a problem. In the knife world maybe no so much.

Here is an article on engine builds and talks about cranks and rods. The part about con rods is interesting.
www.enginebuildermag.com

Replacing Crankshafts, Connecting Rods and Bearings - Engine Builder Magazine

The crankshaft, connecting rods and bearings are extremely important in every engine build, whether mild or wild.
www.enginebuildermag.com www.enginebuildermag.com

Here is an old discussion on two identical steels. Not much of a difference in edge holding. I remember a test showing that there was no difference in edge holding in two steels.

Can You REALLY Tell A Diff. Betw. 154CM and CPM154?

I have owned and used knives made of both. I never did any standardized comparisons, but for my everyday purposes, I don't notice a difference, except maybe 154CM sharpens up faster.
www.bladeforums.com www.bladeforums.com
 
lmcq784 said:
So if CruWear is the powder metallurgy version of VascoWear, what would that change? I know that CPM-D2 is supposedly quite different from regular ingot D2...
Click to expand...
I'm curious about this as well. My understanding is powder metallurgy allows for smaller carbides. Rather than the large clump you tend to find from tool steels.. like D2 as mentioned above.

knifesteelnerds.com

Carbide Types in Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

A description of the major carbide types in steels, how they form, why they are there, and how carbides contribute to different properties of steel.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com
 
Snardvark said:
I'm curious about this as well. My understanding is powder metallurgy allows for smaller carbides. Rather than the large clump you tend to find from tool steels.. like D2 as mentioned above.

knifesteelnerds.com

Carbide Types in Knife Steels - Knife Steel Nerds

A description of the major carbide types in steels, how they form, why they are there, and how carbides contribute to different properties of steel.
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com
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cpm gives a a more uniform distribution of alloys, since, you are basically using heat and pressure to create a bond with powder that does not move once placed in the press. Carbide size is affected by the HT process. Carbides can be detrimental to strength and toughness.


Snardvark said:
Didn't see the guys above.. so basically yeah. Finer carbide structure.
Click to expand...

Can you point out where in that article, where it states that a CPM steel has finer carbide structure. I could not find it
 
Snardvark said:
Didn't see the guys above.. so basically yeah. Finer carbide structure.
Click to expand...


This may be closer to what you were meaning. This article talks about grain size and shows the finer grain in the cpm154 than in the 154cm. Or at least it appears that way. Now, not sure what other factors(HT) were involved with each steel. But you can see how uniform the cpm steel is vs the std steel.

knifesteelnerds.com

154CM - Development, Properties, Use in Knives, and Legacy - Knife Steel Nerds

Update 6/19/18: I have added new toughness numbers from a 1962 publication comparing 440C and 154CM. Go to the bottom of the article to see them. Thanks to Russ Andrews for sending me the article. Thanks to Sal Glesser, Brian Huegel, Mark Bellou, Timothy A. Johnson, Daemon Lindenmayer, and David...
knifesteelnerds.com knifesteelnerds.com
 
Cobalt said:
Since he has his own steel he has designed, I would think in the knifemakers area
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We're saying literally the same thing with different words. I just mistakenly said finer rather than uniform.. i actually kinda meant both. It's precisely the point I was trying to make, and figured people got what I meant. I was wrong to assume.. anyway 🤷‍♂️

Edit: quoted the wrong thing.. but I (probably shouldn't) assume you know what part I'm talking about
 
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Snardvark said:
We're saying literally the same thing with different words. I just mistakenly said finer rather than uniform.. i actually kinda meant both. It's precisely the point I was trying to make, and figured people got what I meant. I was wrong to assume.. anyway 🤷‍♂️

Edit: quoted the wrong thing.. but I (probably shouldn't) assume you know what part I'm talking about
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Eeee.. just reread that haha. It came off a little prickly didn't it? Not intended. I have been told by people who know me well; that I seem mean; when they know I'm not trying to be. Chuggin coffee and bidding on knives. Everyone have a good one.
 
Snardvark said:
Eeee.. just reread that haha. It came off a little prickly didn't it? Not intended. I have been told by people who know me well; that I seem mean; when they know I'm not trying to be. Chuggin coffee and bidding on knives. Everyone have a good one.
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No worries. No one has actually compared all aspects of the best of a 154cm/ATS34 vs a cpm154. Not just edge holding. That would be the perfect steel sample to actually compare both and see which performs best in all categories. But that is a whole different topic I guess. I posted a few links on cyclic loading for crankshafts and it's quite obvious that powder steel is not being used in high strength applications. Or at least that's what I have seen.
 
Cobalt said:
No worries. No one has actually compared all aspects of the best of a 154cm/ATS34 vs a cpm154. Not just edge holding. That would be the perfect steel sample to actually compare both and see which performs best in all categories. But that is a whole different topic I guess. I posted a few links on cyclic loading for crankshafts and it's quite obvious that powder steel is not being used in high strength applications. Or at least that's what I have seen.
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Definitely. I'm a mechanic, and from what I can tell. Anytime there's something needs to take a load.. I notice they make it from either one of three metals (generally.. there are exceptions).. I see 5160, 52100, and 4140. There might be a couple more obvious metals like lead, and zinc. I'm sure there's some really cheap 440, or maybe something in a 10 series with some paint might pop up somewhere, but I don't see that a lot.
 
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Cobalt said:
No worries. No one has actually compared all aspects of the best of a 154cm/ATS34 vs a cpm154. Not just edge holding. That would be the perfect steel sample to actually compare both and see which performs best in all categories. But that is a whole different topic I guess. I posted a few links on cyclic loading for crankshafts and it's quite obvious that powder steel is not being used in high strength applications. Or at least that's what I have seen.
Click to expand...
Crankshafts specifically being 4140 from what I normally see.
 
lmcq784 said:
Just out of curiosity.. I know INFI is tough stuff, often seen compared to the best of the 3V with propriety heat treat... And SR-101, which is slightly less tough or ductile but takes and keeps a finer edge a bit longer... I am not a metallurgist.

I was looking at the Benchmade Adamas fixed blade in CruWear. I just wondered how the steels would compare?

Also wonder if we'll see a Bussekin design like it... A potentially Cerakoted mid sized (5") INFI or SR-101 fixed blade designed with no scales at around 3/16" thick... Sometimes I just like things nice and slim, but INFI-tough of a Busse.

The rounded/crowned tang treatments lately would be perfect and add to the comfort factor.
Click to expand...

BLUF/TL;DR: INFI or SR101 for blades longer than 5," S90V for folders or fixed shorter than 5."

What are you looking to do with it? I read through this entire thread, and didn't see that stated. Maybe I missed it (lots going on this morning, getting our roof re-shingled).
I've not used CruWear (or VascoWear). But it seems like you're talking about something small, not too thick, slicy. But you seem to also be interested in toughness, which I haven't found to be particularly important on something 5" or shorter.

If you want short and slicy, but still tough enough to drive into an asphalt driveway, or use as a piton in climbing, I think INFI is going to be the best you can get. I have found it to take a really fine edge (maybe not as fine as SR101, but the more I've worked with INFI, the finer I can get it). It will hold a fine edge well, although it will lose a shaving edge, depending on how hard you use it. But it then seems particularly resistant to getting further dulled. And I have had no issues with corrosion on INFI, as long as I don't strip a blade but leave the carburizing (or whatever that black stuff is). That stuff will rust while you look at it.

For a small, thin, slicy knife, that will hold an edge forever, the best I've found is S90V (specifically from Benchmade; I just haven't tried anyone elses). I have found it superior in edge holding (shaving edge) to anything I've mentioned above (that I've tried, so excluding CruWear/VascoWear), as well as superior to the following supposed supersteels, some in exactly the same design as the S90V I have:
20CV
M390
204P (I think? talking about the American version of M390)
S30V, S35V
H2 (or is that M2?)
M4
ELMAX
S60V (aka CPM-440V, I believe)
Plus a bunch of other lesser steels, including all versions of 154CM and D2.

I have a BM folder, the one that looks sorta like the Buck 110, in S90V. I've had it about 16 months or so, now. For at least the first 12, I never touched up the edge, except on a black-media loaded leather strop. That was to keep it shaving sharp. That while I was using it regularly to open envelopes, cut plastic, carve wood, cut cardboard and corrugated cardboard, meat, whatever. A few passes over the leather strop and it is good. I just FINALLY gave it a few passes over a white Spyderco ceramic a few weeks ago. Just enough to smooth out a couple of chips in the blade where some keys worked their way into the back of the knife and bent the edge while it was in my pocket. So if you want short, thin, and slicy, S90V is your steel. Or at least it is my steel. Besides that, INFI and SR101 are really the best I've found. They work in small blades, and continue to work well up into sword-size. To the point when Busse recently did some more ELMAX slicers, I felt no particular need to participate. Sure, I'm certain they were good and slicy (as has been shown in at least one thread), but the prospect of getting more ELMAX, even from Busse, didn't fan my flames of desire. I resisted the INFI siren call for a long, LONG time. I just wouldn't believe it was that good. And it isn't perfect. Even S90V isn't. But between the INFI fixed blades I have now, and the S90V folders.... It has been a LONG time since I've bought a blade, until the TNT-15. I just don't see much need. And I'm just not that curious about steels anymore. So all I'm interested in buying is more INFI or SR101 (if a design comes out that I like the blade design), or S90V (if/when it is offered in another folder).

Sorry for the long ramble. I don't know if it helps. Just another guy's perspective.
 
dogboye said:
BLUF/TL;DR: INFI or SR101 for blades longer than 5," S90V for folders or fixed shorter than 5."

What are you looking to do with it? I read through this entire thread, and didn't see that stated. Maybe I missed it (lots going on this morning, getting our roof re-shingled).
I've not used CruWear (or VascoWear). But it seems like you're talking about something small, not too thick, slicy. But you seem to also be interested in toughness, which I haven't found to be particularly important on something 5" or shorter.

If you want short and slicy, but still tough enough to drive into an asphalt driveway, or use as a piton in climbing, I think INFI is going to be the best you can get. I have found it to take a really fine edge (maybe not as fine as SR101, but the more I've worked with INFI, the finer I can get it). It will hold a fine edge well, although it will lose a shaving edge, depending on how hard you use it. But it then seems particularly resistant to getting further dulled. And I have had no issues with corrosion on INFI, as long as I don't strip a blade but leave the carburizing (or whatever that black stuff is). That stuff will rust while you look at it.

For a small, thin, slicy knife, that will hold an edge forever, the best I've found is S90V (specifically from Benchmade; I just haven't tried anyone elses). I have found it superior in edge holding (shaving edge) to anything I've mentioned above (that I've tried, so excluding CruWear/VascoWear), as well as superior to the following supposed supersteels, some in exactly the same design as the S90V I have:
20CV
M390
204P (I think? talking about the American version of M390)
S30V, S35V
H2 (or is that M2?)
M4
ELMAX
S60V (aka CPM-440V, I believe)
Plus a bunch of other lesser steels, including all versions of 154CM and D2.

I have a BM folder, the one that looks sorta like the Buck 110, in S90V. I've had it about 16 months or so, now. For at least the first 12, I never touched up the edge, except on a black-media loaded leather strop. That was to keep it shaving sharp. That while I was using it regularly to open envelopes, cut plastic, carve wood, cut cardboard and corrugated cardboard, meat, whatever. A few passes over the leather strop and it is good. I just FINALLY gave it a few passes over a white Spyderco ceramic a few weeks ago. Just enough to smooth out a couple of chips in the blade where some keys worked their way into the back of the knife and bent the edge while it was in my pocket. So if you want short, thin, and slicy, S90V is your steel. Or at least it is my steel. Besides that, INFI and SR101 are really the best I've found. They work in small blades, and continue to work well up into sword-size. To the point when Busse recently did some more ELMAX slicers, I felt no particular need to participate. Sure, I'm certain they were good and slicy (as has been shown in at least one thread), but the prospect of getting more ELMAX, even from Busse, didn't fan my flames of desire. I resisted the INFI siren call for a long, LONG time. I just wouldn't believe it was that good. And it isn't perfect. Even S90V isn't. But between the INFI fixed blades I have now, and the S90V folders.... It has been a LONG time since I've bought a blade, until the TNT-15. I just don't see much need. And I'm just not that curious about steels anymore. So all I'm interested in buying is more INFI or SR101 (if a design comes out that I like the blade design), or S90V (if/when it is offered in another folder).

Sorry for the long ramble. I don't know if it helps. Just another guy's perspective.
Click to expand...
Awesome info! I do have a bunch of small folders I really like in S90V, 20CV, and the likes. My favorite EDC right now are the Benchmade Bugout and Hogue Deka.. got the Bugout in S90v, 20cv, and m4... Deka comes natively in 20cv. Very dependable slicy knives that disappear in my pockets.
If I could open carry fixed blades for my work (can't) is be carrying some of the recent ELMAX slicers... And or a FHFG RMD, or a Magnum bear cub.? Would totally carry a sus scrofa if I had one.
 
I’m now more intrigued by a smirket smile emoji that will get you banned. That is tough and holds high edge retention. 😵‍💫🤔🤯😳🥺😒😒🤨🧐

All 3 will work in any normal and semi abusive use.

Magnacut may displace a lot of steels out there 😲😲 including these ?
 
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