INFI vs SR-3V

[Cobalt]

Yeah, but, those were probably soft bolts though


A Busse blade that can bend 180 degrees without breaking and cut concrete and steel bolts in half! Who knew? LOL .......

I think part of the extreme bend is sword geometry, width and length. The reason why it can be bent that far. If that was a 2 inch wide 10 inch long blade it likely could not get anywhere near 180. probably not even half that. The bolt cutting is also sword geometry which is a very thick edge. Along with the hardness.

As a reference, here is a Busse Basic breaking point at maximum bend (57 degrees approx). This is what INFI became after the first run. This is at Rc 59

Then this is how far the original SHBM went without breaking. This was with 1% cobalt and .7% Ni, which obviously made the difference. This is a big difference in bend performance between the two. Also, the SHBM needed a pipe to attain the bend. That's the lateral strength difference. Which means the SHBM was stiffer, so it was stiffer and bent further. This is at Rc of 61+

 

[hydeinmind]

* It is not only about bending 180 degrees without breaking. It is about doing that while having a homogenous hardness of 62 HRC and 5% carbide volume in the steel matrix.

* It is not only about cutting concrete. It is about doing those impacts, with a long enough blade to generate enormous impact velocity, and without chipping, while having 5% carbide volume and a homogenous hardness of RC 62.

Achieving similar toughness with a low-carbide steel, or at lower hardness, is not a big deal. Achieving that with a steel that has better wear resistance than D2 - yes, it is a big deal. It is surprising regardless of the company name.

T TheTip you may have been surprised by that performance at those values but I was not. After all the blah blah blah, nobody does HT like Busse. It’s not the first time I’ve seen performance like that from a knife with BUSSE stamped on it, and it won’t be the last.

 

[Cobalt]

Not to mention what SR77 and differentially HTd SR101 can do. You can likely wrap them around a pole.

By the way, the SHBM in bussss picture is bent at more than 90 degrees. They say 80, but in an abs smith test that would be considered beyond 90. Closer to 100 or more

 

[hydeinmind]

I think part of the extreme bend is sword geometry, width and length. The reason why it can be bent that far. If that was a 2 inch wide 10 inch long blade it likely could not get anywhere near 180. probably not even half that. The bolt cutting is also sword geometry which is a very thick edge. Along with the hardness.

As a reference, here is a Busse Basic breaking point at maximum bend (57 degrees approx). This is what INFI became after the first run. This is at Rc 59

Then this is how far the original SHBM went without breaking. This was with 1% cobalt and .7% Ni, which obviously made the difference. This is a big difference in bend performance between the two. Also, the SHBM needed a pipe to attain the bend. That's the lateral strength difference. Which means the SHBM was stiffer, so it was stiffer and bent further. This is at Rc of 61+

That’s still great performance at a great price point on the minfi in my opinion! Especially with the exact same warranty on both knifes. Though, when you post awesome stuff like this Cobalt I can see why some of the Hogs call you purest lol and why you love those SHBMs so much!

 

[ace]

* It is not only about bending 180 degrees without breaking. It is about doing that while having a homogenous hardness of 62 HRC and 5% carbide volume in the steel matrix.

* It is not only about cutting concrete. It is about doing those impacts, with a long enough blade to generate enormous impact velocity, and without chipping, while having 5% carbide volume and a homogenous hardness of RC 62.

Achieving similar toughness with a low-carbide steel, or at lower hardness, is not a big deal. Achieving that with a steel that has better wear resistance than D2 - yes, it is a big deal. It is surprising regardless of the company name.

Which of the steels discussed has better wear resistance than D2?

The "problem" with many of the "toughness/durability" tests is that most of them if not all are really geometry tests rather than steel tests. Bending, chopping bolts, etc are all geometry. Steel can help of course but these are primarily geometry tests. Take a fillet knife and bend it all you want, you won't impress anyone. The steel can be anything really and it will bend and come back to true. Or take a brittle steel like 1095, give it appropriate geometry and you'll be able to chop nails and bolts with it.

It is only impressive when the same knife can do all of these and at the same time be a useful knife in normal knife use. Too many tricks with these tests and then we end up with knives that cut like crap.

Blade stiffness depends on geometry not on heat treat or steel composition.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/13/why-doesnt-heat-treating-affect-steel-flex/

 

[ak650]

If I ever have a need to clamp my knife in a vise, and reef on it with a cheater pipe........I know what I'm going to buy!

 

[TheTip]

Which of the steels discussed has better wear resistance than D2?

The "problem" with many of the "toughness/durability" tests is that most of them if not all are really geometry tests rather than steel tests. Bending, chopping bolts, etc are all geometry. Steel can help of course but these are primarily geometry tests. Take a fillet knife and bend it all you want, you won't impress anyone. The steel can be anything really and it will bend and come back to true. Or take a brittle steel like 1095, give it appropriate geometry and you'll be able to chop nails and bolts with it.

It is only impressive when the same knife can do all of these and at the same time be a useful knife in normal knife use. Too many tricks with these tests and then we end up with knives that cut like crap.

Blade stiffness depends on geometry not on heat treat or steel composition.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/13/why-doesnt-heat-treating-affect-steel-flex/

Thanks a lot for the link. I didn't know these things.

I was refering to 3V.

I partially disagree with your statement about 1095. Yes, geometry does a lot, but not everything. I have personally attempted the bolt cut test with a Hultafors GK (SK-5 steel @58-60 HRC, with a thick edge profile similar to the one on Busse knives). It ended up with a 1 mm large stamp onto the edge, taking the shape of the bolt. Deformation, not chip, but it had visible edge damage after cutting the bolt.

 

[TheTip]

The bolt cutting is also sword geometry which is a very thick edge.

Surprisingly, holding my Free Rein side by side with an unused Skinny ASH-1 in my hand, I realized the former is actually thinner in grind and in edge profile than the latter.

 

[ace]

Thanks a lot for the link. I didn't know these things.

I was refering to 3V.

I partially disagree with your statement about 1095. Yes, geometry does a lot, but not everything. I have personally attempted the bolt cut test with a Hultafors GK (SK-5 steel @58-60 HRC, with a thick edge profile similar to the one on Busse knives). It ended up with a 1 mm large stamp onto the edge, taking the shape of the bolt. Deformation, not chip, but it had visible edge damage after cutting the bolt.

3V makes more sense, but even 3V doesn't have better or same wear resistance as D2, it gets closer though.

I am not implying that geometry is everything, but it has such a huge effect that many if not most of these tests are geometry first and everything else a very distant second. In your specific example, since you are saying the edge didn't chip then either the steel was too soft, or the geometry was in fact thinner. Unless you actually measured the angles with appropriate equipment, you can't really know. Worse yet if the knives were sharpened free hand, since then the edge is convex with composite angle of unknown value. We really can't reliably know what it is at all and that has such a large affect that without having exactly the same geometry you can't make any conclusions about steel properties. In you example 1095 was tough enough to not chip, but wasn't strong/hard enough not to deform.

 

[TheTip]

T TheTip you may have been surprised by that performance at those values but I was not. After all the blah blah blah, nobody does HT like Busse. It’s not the first time I’ve seen performance like that from a knife with BUSSE stamped on it, and it won’t be the last.

Have you seen that performance from another Busse knife that had "63 HRC" as upper range of its hardness?

 

[hydeinmind]

Have you seen that performance from another Busse knife that had "63 HRC" as upper range of its hardness?

I have not. But it’s not surprising to me that they can. And it won’t surprise me if we see more!

In all honesty I felt a bit of nostalgia watching those videos. Like I was watching something old and not new. Had I not read the intro I might have dismissed it as such.

 

[beachmaster]

Which of the steels discussed has better wear resistance than D2?

The "problem" with many of the "toughness/durability" tests is that most of them if not all are really geometry tests rather than steel tests. Bending, chopping bolts, etc are all geometry. Steel can help of course but these are primarily geometry tests. Take a fillet knife and bend it all you want, you won't impress anyone. The steel can be anything really and it will bend and come back to true. Or take a brittle steel like 1095, give it appropriate geometry and you'll be able to chop nails and bolts with it.

It is only impressive when the same knife can do all of these and at the same time be a useful knife in normal knife use. Too many tricks with these tests and then we end up with knives that cut like crap.

Blade stiffness depends on geometry not on heat treat or steel composition.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2018/03/13/why-doesnt-heat-treating-affect-steel-flex/

I agree with 99% of what you say but stiffness I DO believe is greatly affected by steel.
Certain steels simply have more torsional toughness and with the same geometry I believe will be more or less stiff.

I'll have to check out Larrin's article there

 

[Ironic]

This just recently was posted on YouTube.

As conventional wisdom links hardness with edge holding, this class of steels is an interesting anomaly to me. Still looking at the potential applications…

So from Larrin’s explanation, the advantage of combining very high hardness with high toughness (1V/K888) would be edge strength/stability, which would be an advantage for an edge expected to take high impacts like a chopper? But for different applications, a steel with comparable toughness and lesser hardness, but with greater edge retention, might be the preferred choice? Am I reading that right?

 

[Cobalt]

I agree with 99% of what you say but stiffness I DO believe is greatly affected by steel.
Certain steels simply have more torsional toughness and with the same geometry I believe will be more or less stiff.

I'll have to check out Larrin's article there

I agree with you 100%. To say steel type doesn't have an effect and ht doesn't either is a stretch

 

[ace]

I agree with 99% of what you say but stiffness I DO believe is greatly affected by steel.
Certain steels simply have more torsional toughness and with the same geometry I believe will be more or less stiff.

I'll have to check out Larrin's article there

I agree with you 100%. To say steel type doesnt have an effect and ht doeant either is a steetch

I understand you guys believe this, but that doesn't make it true or correct. Read the linked article, it is explained very well there.

Don't misunderstand I am not saying steel or heat treat don't matter in general for knives, of course they matter. I am just saying that many of the torture tests or bend tests are mostly geometry tests. I was also pointing out that steel elasticity/stiffness is not affected by heat treat or even the type of steel really (This is not entirely true, steels vary a tiny bit in elasticity and hardened steel is about 2-3% less stiff than annealed steel). For our discussion of knife blades and edges though we can assume that all the steels we care about have same stiffness and it is mostly affected by geometry, thickness.

 

[TheTip]

I assume that we need to wait for Jerry Busse to publish those scientific tests that he talks about in this thread, in order to know for sure which of the two steels is better in which area. Otherwise what we discuss here might be just personal opinion and speculation. I hope he will do those tests with fairness.

Cheers!

 

[Cobalt]

I understand you guys believe this, but that doesn't make it true or correct. Read the linked article, it is explained very well there.

Don't misunderstand I am not saying steel or heat treat don't matter in general for knives, of course they matter. I am just saying that many of the torture tests or bend tests are mostly geometry tests. I was also pointing out that steel elasticity/stiffness is not affected by heat treat or even the type of steel really (This is not entirely true, steels vary a tiny bit in elasticity and hardened steel is about 2-3% less stiff than annealed steel). For our discussion of knife blades and edges though we can assume that all the steels we care about have same stiffness and it is mostly affected by geometry, thickness.

I think the problem is the article is talking about elastic deformation range. Problem here is that the non HT'd steel reaches plastic deformation(non elastic point) very early, as to make the comparison superfluous in a real world situation. The HT'd part resists plastic deformation considerably more than the non HT'd part does and this is the important factor that the article does not discuss, and certainly not the video. The non heat treated steel may be well into the plastic deformation range when the heat treated steel is still in it's elastic range. We should be more interested in the elastic limits than the shape of the curve.

 

[Cobalt]

I assume that we need to wait for Jerry Busse to publish those scientific tests that he talks about in this thread, in order to know for sure which of the two steels is better in which area. Otherwise what we discuss here might be just personal opinion and speculation. I hope he will do those tests with fairness.

Cheers!

Has anyone else done any tests? The fact you said with fairness concerns me that you are skewed against busse in some way. and thus all your arguments will be flavored that way. Maybe you should ask this of all manufacturers. Let me ask you , what brand or makers knives are you heavily invested in?

 

[ace]

I think the problem is the article is talking about elastic deformation range. Problem here is that the non HT'd steel reaches plastic deformation(non elastic point) very early, as to make the comparison superfluous in a real world situation. The HT'd part resists plastic deformation considerably more than the non HT'd part does and this is the important factor that the article does not discuss, and certainly not the video. The non heat treated steel may be well into the plastic deformation range when the heat treated steel is still in it's elastic range. We should be more interested in the elastic limits than the shape of the curve.

Hmmm. I think we are talking about different things. Or maybe I've lost the track of what we are talking about. For one, we don't really care about non HT'd steel. All knives are heat treated. More importantly we need to acknowledge that heat treatment doesn't change the stiffness of steel. I think that is all the article is describing, what stiffness is and what it is affected by, as well as some misconceptions that people have. Since the fact that stiffness is not affected by hardness or a choice of steel (within the application range we care about, meaning knives) is counterintuitive and many incorrectly believe otherwise. In any case the article is there as well as are other articles, so all the information is available freely, what to do with it is up to an individual.

 

[JTR357]

The few Busse knives I've had responded well to just stropping. They were razor sharp & never seen a stone after some decent use too. That's what I love about INFI as well as a few other steels. When they almost never need a stone with normal use.