INFI vs SR-3V

I love me some 3V but I like M4 more. INFI is in it's own category. It behaves like 4V for the most part, but tougher.
 
beachmaster beachmaster please don’t edit what I wrote in a quote, as it looks like I wrote this which I didn’t. All steels that we care about in all conditions we care about have the same stiffness that’s the point. Hard to write an article about it.
 
ace said:
Hmmm. I think we are talking about different things. Or maybe I've lost the track of what we are talking about. For one, we don't really care about non HT'd steel. All knives are heat treated. More importantly we need to acknowledge that heat treatment doesn't change the stiffness of steel. I think that is all the article is describing, what stiffness is and what it is affected by, as well as some misconceptions that people have. Since the fact that stiffness is not affected by hardness or a choice of steel (within the application range we care about, meaning knives) is counterintuitive and many incorrectly believe otherwise. In any case the article is there as well as are other articles, so all the information is available freely, what to do with it is up to an individual.
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So, I talked about non HT metal because that is the example given in the article. But I don't think you read what I wrote. HT doesn't affect stiffness prior to plastic deformation. After it does. And the point of plastic deformation is quite different depending on the steel and the HT.

But the most interesting thing about all this is that there is no other manufacturers forum where this is discussed except maybe spyderco. Try to talk about this on any other forum like buck or CS or any other.

Otherwise, I agree in the elastic deformation range HT doesn't matter. When it comes to youngs modulus.
 
Cobalt said:
So, I talked about non HT metal because that is the example given in the article. But I don't think you read what I wrote. HT doesn't affect stiffness prior to plastic deformation. After it does. And the point of plastic deformation is quite different depending on the steel and the HT.

But the most interesting thing about all this is that there is no other manufacturers forum where this is discussed except maybe spyderco. Try to talk about this on any other forum like buck or CS or any other.

Otherwise, I agree in the elastic deformation range HT doesn't matter. When it comes to youngs modulus.
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I read what you wrote I just didn’t think it was relevant since we only care about a relatively small subset of steels and very narrow range of hardness. I also didn’t really realize what subforum we were in I just look at new posts and I like steel discussions, so chimed in. I believe you that this subforum is special in a good way. Steel should be discussed everywhere on a knife forums in my opinion.

I am really not interested in arguing I was just trying to correct some misconceptions that seemed to be happening, but if you know all this feel free to ignore me. All the information and data are available through Larrin’s and others amazing work, so anyone who is interested can easily educate themselves.
 
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ace said:
I read what you wrote I just didn’t think it was relevant since we only care about a relatively small subset of steels and very narrow range of hardness. I also didn’t really realize what subforum we were in I just look at new posts and I like steel discussions, so chimed in. I believe you that this subforum is special in a good way. Steel should be discussed everywhere on a knife forums in my opinion.

I am really not interest in arguing I was just trying to correct some misconceptions that seemed to be happening, but if you know all this feel free to ignore me. All the information and data is available through Larrin’s and others amazing work, so anyone who is interest can easily educate themselves.
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I feel discussion is good. I just feel that to much emphasis is placed on certain scientists and the context is wrong. I believe the article quoted is not as relevant as purported. Simply because it does not discuss plastic deformation. It discusses light loading and elastic deformation. That was my point.
 
I had mine measured and it was 60 to 60.5. That seems to be outside of the margin of error for a sword intended to be 62. I wonder if there are actually any of these at 62-63?
 
Sorry... this turned out to be longer than I originally intended.
============================================
I'm going to throw a different perspective out (again), and I'm not just trying to be ornery. But I do speak as one that for... probably about 18, maybe 20 years... chased the supersteel. I've tried 1095, O1, A2, D2, L6, W2, ATS34, 154CM, Talonite, CPM440V, S30V, S35VN, Elmax, H2(?), M4, ... several of the Swedish steels... most of the CPM steels... SR101, INFI, 3V, and a bunch I either just don't want to bother listing, or have forgotten. This is what I've found:

I've never had to break into a house or car, nor tear down a house with a knife. I HAVE demolished wooden structures with a crowbar.
I've never had to try to rip a vise off a table with a knife. I've always unbolted it.
I've never had to cut through a bolt with a knife; every time I've had to do that I either used a cut-off wheel, or (accidentally) wrenched it in two with a wrench.
I don't put much stake in a knife being able to bend 90+ degrees and come back to true. Smarter men than me do, and they have their reasons.
I've never had to tear through a cinderblock. When I did, I used a sledge hammer.
I once had to deflate tires with a 1095 knife. 1095 is not the best steel for that.
I have batonned through all types of wood, and haven't had trouble with any knife whether it be made of 1095 or INFI.
I have cut unsupported branches with everything from 1095 to SR101 to INFI to no-name carbon steel in a cheap machete. I haven't observed any edge damage on any of the blades, including the machete.
I've only ever severely damaged the edge on three blades: 1) a 420HC pocket knife from Buck when I tried to use it as a screwdriver; still have it, blade still works, just shorter; 2) the machete, when I cut into a knot of cherry on a very hard swing bent the edge severely; hammered it flat again (with a hammer) and continued working; 3) severe edge damage to a CGBB13 when it was thrown about 70 feet from under the deck of a John Deere riding mower; replaced by the manufacturer.
I am not a Soldier, Marine, Airman, diver, smoke jumper, nor mountain rescue.
I am a hunter, hiker, backpacker, camper, rockclimber.
After all that, and 18+ years of trying everything I could think of, only 3 steels have stood out to me for different reasons: 420V(now S90V) (only rock hard in a small blade), no-name steel in the machete (that thing has been beaten mercilessly, and just keeps working with only having to run a file along the edge once in a while), and INFI (has the most balanced properties... edge holding, sharpenability... apparently toughness... of pretty much anything I've used).

I've come to the awful conclusion that someone can't know what the best steel is without having used it themselves. And most of the time, the steel itself is only one of the aspects of the knife that determines its usefulness. The rest of them have to be experienced by the person interested in the knife. Which means, in my case, too much money spent digging through the knives and steel. But it has been a hobby, and obviously continues to be.

And realize, this is posted in fun, not to be an insult to anyone.
 
Fonedork said:
I had mine measured and it was 60 to 60.5. That seems to be outside of the margin of error for a sword intended to be 62. I wonder if there are actually any of these at 62-63?
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This needs to be addressed by Busse. If the reading was accurate, there should be an explanation. And if it was not accurate for whatever reason (no offense, Fonedork), we need to know that. And obviously, it’s in Busse’s interest to clear this up, either way.
 
ace said:
beachmaster beachmaster please don’t edit what I wrote in a quote, as it looks like I wrote this which I didn’t. All steels that we care about in all conditions we care about have the same stiffness that’s the point. Hard to write an article about it.
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I messed the format up.

But no, your article in now way supports an idea of all steels having the same stiffness, only different hardnesses.

In fact the article you posted explaining how different steels have the same stiffness across different hardnesses due to how the molecules bond to each other would support different steels having different stiffnesses as they have different structures.
 
beachmaster said:
In fact the article you posted explaining how different steels have the same stiffness across different hardnesses due to how the molecules bond to each other would support different steels having different stiffnesses as they have different structures.
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This doesn't make sense to me. How steels work is not really open for discussion, the article explains why different steels have same stiffness. I am really at a loss here. The information is available do with it what you like.
 
Cobalt said:
Has anyone else done any tests? The fact you said with fairness concerns me that you are skewed against busse in some way. and thus all your arguments will be flavored that way. Maybe you should ask this of all manufacturers. Let me ask you , what brand or makers knives are you heavily invested in?
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Hahaha... That's a good point! And thanks for asking this clarification.

When I say "with fairness", I mean I hope the test will show measurable facts (not personal beliefs) and I hope the test criteria won't be choosen intentionally to favor one steel or another. We all know that Jerry loves INFI more than any other steel and that he has a lot of battle mistresses which are all from this steel. All I say is I'm hoping that if INFI lags behind SR-3V in any aspect, that thing won't be hidden just because of that love.

As regards the "brand and makers that I am heavily invested in", it depends what you mean by "invested in". I am not doing business in the knives industry and I am not commercially involved in any way with any manufacturer. However, each of us has his own preferences and likes. If it's measured in money, I think the most I am invested in is in Busse and subsidiaries. If we measure by number of knives, I'm probably mostly invested in Mora. If we judge by the knives I like most, it's very hard to say. If we judge by the knives I've used most, it'd be probably Hultafors knives and Tramontina machetes. Overall I have and had used knives, machetes and hatchets (which I like) from many companies and they are so different and excel in so different areas: Cold Steel, Morakniv, Hultafors, Busse Combat, Swamp Rat, Scrapyard, Spyderco, Victorinox, Opinel, Gerber, Gransfors Bruks, Fiskars, Solingen, Muela, Nieto, Fallkniven and many more, plus a range of custom knives. I had positive experiences with several models from all of the mentioned, except Fallkniven. And your question was right to the point. I'm not involved in any way with promoting knives or makers, but every person tends to become somehow subjective when (s)he likes something. Our personal opinions and simpathies always tend to influence our decisions. Regardless of how much we try to be objective, it is hard. And that's why I haven't discussed in the Busse Combat section of the forum about comparing the steels from Busse with the steels of others (because it wouldn't be fair). I am just discussing about comparing two steels from Busse Company Group. 😉
 
Fonedork said:
I had mine measured and it was 60 to 60.5. That seems to be outside of the margin of error for a sword intended to be 62. I wonder if there are actually any of these at 62-63?
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I assume you sent it in to Busse, and this isn't the first time he's heard of it, right? You know he will replace any problem blade, so this is a no brainer. If you decided to keep it, that would be strange.
 
Cobalt Cobalt Adding more to my above answer: I have far more knives than I need, because I've never found the perfect one. And every time I purchased a knife, I felt like "wow, it is awesome... but it is still missing someting... I still need to continue searching" (does that sound familiar to any of you? :D). This happened for more than 25 years to me, all the way until I got the SR Free Rein Wakizashi last year. When I received that one, it was for the very first time in my life when I felt that I finally have the knife of my dreams (in all aspects). Argumentation: it chops similar to a machete of the same size (and nothing can outchop a thin bolo machete weight-to-performance), weights just a bit more, is just as durable as a spring steel machete from the lower range of the 50s HRC, but has the additional thickness to split effectively, the additional wear resistance to hold an edge closer to the premium steels I have in the smaller knives (like M390, SGPS, K390), has some fair corrosion resistance, offers the type of tip that is both strong and deep penetration capable, has a handle that can accomodate either one handed or two-handed use for additional prying leverage, has the necessary stiffness to be used as a weapon if the situation asks it (which a thin machete doesn't), weights light enough for a tool of its size to be carried in my backpack, is just short enough to be conceallable on the trail, but long enough to offer more leverage than any knife, has a perfectly shaped 3D all-around finger guard to allow power stabbing without concerns of hand slippage if the need comes, and ressembles the simplicity of a (nearly) straight prybar that is usable in many ways, with no joints, no screws, no moving parts, no complexities. The more complex a thing is, the more likely it is to fail in nasty situations.
And my ecuation is simple: is INFI better than SR-3V? If so, it means I'm not done; I need to wait until someone will make an INFI version of the Free Rein with a Res-C handle and buy it. But if the conclusion is that the only advantages INFI brings over SR-3V stand in the ease of sharpening and slightly (nearly unnoticeable) corrosion resistance, then I'm done; I already have the best knife by my personal criteria! I don't care about the ease of sharpening at all. I sharpen everything with a DMT aligner and I make anything shaving sharp in just a few seconds. It is small and light enough to carry with me everywhere and I know the predefined angle for every of my knives.

I hope this answer also clarifies the purpose for which I've created this thread. 🙂
 
After all the... stuff... I posted above, if I HAD an SR-3V Free Rein, and Busse came out with the identical short-sword in INFI, I wouldn't buy it.
Similarly, if i HAD one in INFI, and they came out with the identical one in SR-3V, I wouldn't buy it.
There wouldn't be enough of a differencebetween the two, I don't think.
HOWEVER, IF they offered identical swords in SR-3V and INFI, I'd buy the INFI.
 
TheTip said:
Cobalt Cobalt Adding more to my above answer: I have far more knives than I need, because I've never found the perfect one. And every time I purchased a knife, I felt like "wow, it is awesome... but it is still missing someting... I still need to continue searching" (does that sound familiar to any of you? :D). This happened for more than 25 years to me, all the way until I got the SR Free Rein Wakizashi last year. When I received that one, it was for the very first time in my life when I felt that I finally have the knife of my dreams (in all aspects). Argumentation: it chops similar to a machete of the same size (and nothing can outchop a thin bolo machete weight-to-performance), weights just a bit more, is just as durable as a spring steel machete from the lower range of the 50s HRC, but has the additional thickness to split effectively, the additional wear resistance to hold an edge closer to the premium steels I have in the smaller knives (like M390, SGPS, K390), has some fair corrosion resistance, offers the type of tip that is both strong and deep penetration capable, has a handle that can accomodate either one handed or two-handed use for additional prying leverage, has the necessary stiffness to be used as a weapon if the situation asks it (which a thin machete doesn't), weights light enough for a tool of its size to be carried in my backpack, is just short enough to be conceallable on the trail, but long enough to offer more leverage than any knife, has a perfectly shaped 3D all-around finger guard to allow power stabbing without concerns of hand slippage if the need comes, and ressembles the simplicity of a (nearly) straight prybar that is usable in many ways, with no joints, no screws, no moving parts, no complexities. The more complex a thing is, the more likely it is to fail in nasty situations.
And my ecuation is simple: is INFI better than SR-3V? If so, it means I'm not done; I need to wait until someone will make an INFI version of the Free Rein with a Res-C handle and buy it. But if the conclusion is that the only advantages INFI brings over SR-3V stand in the ease of sharpening and slightly (nearly unnoticeable) corrosion resistance, then I'm done; I already have the best knife by my personal criteria! I don't care about the ease of sharpening at all. I sharpen everything with a DMT aligner and I make anything shaving sharp in just a few seconds. It is small and light enough to carry with me everywhere and I know the predefined angle for every of my knives.

I hope this answer also clarifies the purpose for which I've created this thread. 🙂
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I am not sure if current INFI is better than current 3v overall. When you see what the free rein can do, it is tough to argue that modern INFI is better. I want to see Busse produce some of the old INFI offerings in 3v to do a more accurate comparison. I think modern INFI probably has the edge in toughness, but 3v probably has the edge in wear resistance. The good thing is that they are close and I would not have a problem with owning either. I would not have said that about 3v 15 years ago, when it would crumble like particle board on hard use. The original HT spec for 3v was a disaster. It has morphed into a great steel with modern HT. But I also would love to see other steels, like K329 and K340 being used more.
 
^ There's no question in my mind that 3V at 60+ has better wear resistance than INFI at 58-60. And for my purposes, the other characteristics are roughly similar.
 
ace said:
This doesn't make sense to me. How steels work is not really open for discussion, the article explains why different steels have same stiffness. I am really at a loss here. The information is available do with it what you like.
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The article doesnt expound on different steels- only different hardnesses.
Maybe you are mixing it up with some other article 🤷‍♂️
 
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