INFLATED KNIFE PRICE MARKETING - Who is the winner?

[lobo9er]

If this wasn't about BUSSE, who was it about or what knife or maker? Very odd thread. Whats a good brand/material/price combo then?


... oh just read the other thread ... not about BUSSE eh.. lol entertaining anyways...

Lets see some pics of KUKRI abuse OP! what have you done with the KUKRI GHURKA!

 

[JR88FAN]

I am not exactly sure WTF 'inflated knife price marketing' means?
I think for this to become a conversation, that needs to be defined.

I always thought that any non-essential good (A pocket knife) would sell for whatever people are willing to pay for it.

You can buy a 'custom' for $2K that has the same materials a Spyderco does.

There is a lot of added value for intangible's like 'prestige' 'rarity' 'hype' etc, but these are all very real economic factors that directly relate to what an item is worth, and that will always be what people are willing to pay for it.....

 

[marcinek]

If this wasn't about BUSSE, who was it about or what knife or maker? Very odd thread. Whats a good brand/material/price combo then?

Its about Busse. Read his posts about Busse and its fans in the Busse Craze thread.

 

[The cow]

Can you give some kind of example of this? Like when a company adds some secret ingredient and an expert that previously thought the knife was overpriced at the lower price point now thinks it is worth the higher price point?

I mean is there a real life anecdote toward which you could point me for clarification? Thanks.

We make threads here about pricing all the time, that's unlikely to change.

It reminds me exactly of Bussekin (though I don't know of many "knife experts" that justify higher prices). Top secret steel formula with a super top secret heat treat process.

That said, there are plenty of blades out there that I don't think are "worth the price." Both Strider and Hinderers stick out to me along with pretty much everything that Skelton videos.

 

[Seriousbladeno1]

This isn't the only industry this happens in.

This has been proven several times dealing with wine especially. People will do a blind taste test of an expensive bottle and a cheap bottle and not be able to tell the difference. People will do tests where they are told a cheap bottle of wine is expensive and an expensive bottle of wine is cheap wine and people will always pick the cheap win that they think is expensive. In wine competitions even, judges can be given the same glass of wine multiple times without knowing and rate the wine completely different every time.

This is exactly what i ment,you hit the nail with your words....I did not mean any company,who does make a real effort into proven quality,because making knifes better,stronger,more durable,inovative,or better performance is expensive process and therefore price must reflect every of these actions taken during knifemaking process....Nobody will do it for free and first and foremost it is mainly bussiness,rather than only enjoyment (unless speaking small time personal hobby)

Some guys here,responded to me with their assumptions i am talking particular company and brought here irrelevant stuff,from other thread,,,once again,i did not ment company such as Busse,,,however i expressed my opinion that i think some of their knifes are really overly priced to the best of my knowledge and this made some think i am relating this to above,because we had disagreement in the other thread...No i ment purely and only the stuff i wrote in topic,if there are guys here,having experience as such with stuff overly priced and not justifications there,to reason the price....making steel a bit stronger but multiply the prices to the levels,absolutely unreasonable and tricking people by false advertisments about steel quality,composition,performance....warranty etc....This should really help to avoid false advertisment tricks, to buyers.I ment premium companies,with premium prices and sucked in fanbase blindfolded to believe into well done and rich marketing back up,despite the products are not in pair with performance it is claim to have....I do not see Busse anyhow falling into this sort of category,in any way....just because it is proven in its class,quality,warranty,etc...by the way their resale is along with some of the highest value out there..(not to me,as i explained,but for those willing to go for it yes) so whoever buy them and decide to get money back,he will do so very easy,even making on top,talking LE's,,,,Ganzas etc....
So i was wondering as i am not an expert,niether newbie,have some small bit of limited knowledge,if there are any veterans out there,with large supercollections and lot expertise first hand,maybe they could have enlighten people less experienced,what is recommended to avoid or is not much convincing products out there....

Thanks

 

[MIGUY]

I think there are companies out there that try to do it yes, but it seems that if things are overly priced, not enough people will buy them to make it worthwhile, so if they are being bought, then the price is set right. It all depends on what the buyers values are... In a LE version, people value the rarity, so they buy one, but they may also like the steel or other materials. So in a market economy, you can't get away with overpriced stuff so much, but you can sell it for more because of values other than usability. If its rare, or made by said person, or has some sort of special appeal, that doesn't mean its not worth it, it just means its not worth it to you, but someone else out there values a certain part of that knife and determines it to be worth it to him/her.

You also seem to be talking about user knives, and many members on here are collectors of sorts... So any person who wants a full set may buy an "outrageously priced" knife because it fulfills a set. Its not all about use ability and value at that point.

 

[TheMtnMan]

Do you own stock in HI or something ?

 

[ev13wt]

A Breitling watch, with a 120 dollar mechanical ETA movement is overpriced too. Still people buy them without a second thought.

 

[drrickso]

Let's not kid ourselves- no matter how good something is, or how great the warranty is- you ARE also paying for name when dealing with any well known brand. if not, we'd all be wearing Folex and Fadidas. Personally, I don't mind paying a little more for an established maker that backs his product. Of course I'd love to find a balance between quality, reputation and price but that's not always easy to find.

Also, often times the more expensive brands are made in the USA partly due to the cost of overhead, so comparing a USA made reputable brand with an import made under questionable conditions is apples to oranges. Of course there are the expensive exceptions like Shirogorov, ADV, and even Tawaineese Spydercos that charge a small fortune but people still like them. I have no opinion on those personally since the price and designs don't appeal to me.

 

[Pittknife]

There is a lot the OP is not taking into account.

1. The economy of scale: Individual knifemakers do not have the ability to get quantity discount on premium steels. Steel is sold direct only to wholesellers who buy in the tonnage. Those wholesellers resale to other sellers and individuals. Even a large company such as KAI doesn't have enough quantity to get a substantial discount or get a special run of material. What I mean by this is, let's say KAI wants s110v but no s110v is being produced, unless KAI wants to pay a setup fee and buy in the tonnage for a special run of 500 knives, they will have to get the material from a reseller at a premium. The truth is knifemakers & knife suppliers do not have enough quantity to make demands for exotic materials, hence increased cost. I was speaking with a well known maker about marbled CF and he told me he just put in a gigantic order for marbled CF, it was 4 ft. He told me it might last him a year or 2. 4 ft of CF would not cover a panel in some applications...

2. It is extremely expensive to manufacture product both commercially & individually: Most average knifemakers are not driving Ferrari's. Even pimpers don't make that much money. It's not just the cost of materials, but also the cost of equipment, maintenance, time & their health. What you see is a $500 piece of moku-ti, $50 piece of CF, $200 piece of damascus and think the cost of the knife should be $750. You forget the hidden costs. A good belt grinder 2 x 72 is $2k, all the different belts on average is $500 for a couple months, bandsaw blades, screws, cnc maintenance, heat treat oven, adhesives, end mills &etc etc etc. Now on top of that add the time element. A maker might put in 40 hrs on a knife and charge you an extra $400 to the knife. You think that is a good salary except its only $10/hr. Even worse is the cost of health and injury. They pay for their own insurance, they get severe health side effects from making knives.

3. Quality difference: to achieve a certain level of quality it cost money. If you understand TQM or QA principles there is a point where the return of quality is not justified. Just think of 6 Sigma (I'm a blackbelt btw), to get to a 6 sigma (3.4 defects per 1 million opportunity) is astronomical and not obtainable in most cases. The curve for quality is not LINEAR, it's EXPONENTIAL. Let's say a knife rating is 1-10, being 10 the best. To get a knife from level 1 to level 5 might be only a 25% increase in price and a 100% in quality. To get a knife from level 5 to level 7 might be a 100% increase in price & a 30% increase to quality. To get a knife from level 8 to level 9 might be a 500% increase in price but only at a 10% increase in quality. The curves are not linear. Companies such as KAI invest a crap ton in the technology to design & reach a certain level of quality.

4. Market prices: they are dictated by consumers & investors. The knife makers do not benefit from this, the middlemen do. I define middlemen as anyone who is reselling the knife after the maker. RJ Martins prices have only increased slightly for his table prices, yet his knives immediately sell for 200%. He doesn't see that price profit, the middlemen do.

Finally, this market is ruled by the same laws of economics as every other market, the rules of demand & supply. If you really want to curb the cost, don't participate in the market, it will eventually go down. What is even more of a factor is the overall economy, as the economy self-corrects due artificial inflation, people will have less money to spend on extracurricular interest.

I have been a mechanical engineer (primarily executive business now {MBA}) for over 15 years now, working in vary diverse fields, including investment castings (titanium & steels). It takes a tremendous amount of money, knowledge, skill & luck for businesses to survive. I'm all for knifemakers to see the direct profit, not the middlemen.

Recently, I have been doing my own knife designs and buying equipment to make knives. I'm doing this as a hobby and had no plans to actually sale a knife. Still, I did a very easy cost/profit analysis and I realized quickly I could not sell a knife for profit. If I did it would be in the $1k range, which I would not feel comfortable selling a knife at my level for. So basically, I just have an expensive hobby and the business side is useless until I reach a certain level of quality & experience.

I hope I have added some useful knowledge to this thread.

 

[Sonnydaze]

Maybe you can show us an example of a knife company that prices their knives so high that they cannot sell them.

I cannot speak for this "community" of course, but only for myself. I will NOT buy any knives that have zapped upward due to recent MAP pricing guidelines. I guess this includes Benchmade and perhaps ZT also...
I paid $130 for a vendor-new ZT 0770CF in M390 just before MAP; now is "river-priced" at $220. NO THANKS.

I suspect that Busse is worth its price, and sells just as well on the used market. Their INFI must have some merit that warrants that owner satisfaction.
For the money vs quality issue in fixed bush-blades, however, I am happy with SurviveKnives GSO series and have had various great examples in 3V, S90V and 20CV.

 

[marcinek]

I cannot speak for this "community" of course, but only for myself. I will NOT buy any knives that have zapped upward due to recent MAP pricing guidelines. I guess this includes Benchmade and perhaps ZT also...
I paid $130 for a vendor-new ZT 0770CF in M390 just before MAP; now is "river-priced" at $220. NO THANKS.

I understand making that choice entirely.

My point is that those knives that you are not willing to pay that price for are still selling.

They are overpriced to you and to the people who agree with you...but as far as "the market" and Benchmade are concerned...they are not.

 

[MikeH]

I am always amused by these kind of threads. It happens on the gun forums also. "I think my Colt is the be all and end all of 1911's and anyone who buys a (Dan Wesson, Nighthawk, Wilson, Brown, etc.) is an idiot because they don't agree with me that these guns aren't worth the premium."

The only people who determine the value of a product are the buyer and the seller. No one holds a gun to either's head and makes them buy or sell. If they both walk away happy then it is a good deal, period. No one else's opinion matters at all. This is called free market, or alternatively, liberty.

When I made a decision I want something, and am willing to pay the asking price to get it, it is absolutely none of anyone else's business, except for my wife who holds joint interest in the money paid.

What leads to these kinds of posts? Some possible reasons are:

- The kind of envy and jealously that says, "no one should be entitled to buy something that I myself can't afford or deem not worth it."

- An anxious need for affirmation by others of one's opinions. Another name for this is low self esteem.

- Just looking for a fight.

- A socialist political outlook that feels that anything anyone else does should require the approval of me or of people who share my opinions.

- A form of reverse snobbery.

I for one love my Busse knives and am too old and content to give a (insert desired expletive here) what others think about what knives I choose to buy.

On the other hand, I don't see a need for me to have more than one watch, and wouldn't dream of paying over about $150 for one. however, that opinion doesn't change the fact that
if someone else wants to have a daily rotation of several $10,000 watches it is none of my business at all.

 

[K.O.D.]

There are just too many variables to answer this question.

Seems to me that many people cry "overpriced" when a product they like is beyond their means and/or willingness to shell out for the product.

There is a difference though, when a company raises their prices dramatically with no perceived increase in quality, craftsmanship, and/or materials (Benchmade I'm looking at you). One of my other hobbies is athletic shoes, and Nike has done something similar; many of their higher end shoes, especially the Jordan line and Jordan Retro's have increased by $20+.

Obviously, inflation has to be taken into consideration.

Pricing structure can play into a lot as well. Here's a prime example. I am an insurance agent. I sell insurance for auto, home, umbrella, and all the toys. Homeowner's insurance has a built in inflation guard to make sure you are insured to value, thus causing a small increase in price every year. That's a given. Depending on your state's claims situation (here in Illinois we get sacked with just about everything but hurricanes), the age of your home, roof, etc you may see a further increase year to year, usually no more than 10% (unless you've had a claim).

One of our companies decided they weren't going to raise premiums other than the inflation guard. They did it for five years. Then bam, in one year they hit everyone with a 30%+ increase to make up for lost time. To many, this seemed like price gouging, and despite having a very similar rate for five years, they didn't care, wanted requotes and/or left us.

People tend to only look at the short term, and base their judgements on that.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________


I don't really know anything about Busse. However, I see many people complain about CRK, Strider, and Hinderer pricing. From what I've seen, CRK and Strider's pricing has been pretty stable. Hinderer's prices as of recent have actually gone down.

Whining about what you can't afford and/or don't want to spend for a product does no good and makes a person come off as being immature at best.

Allocation of funds is what it is all about. I make enough that I could buy a Sebenza every month. But I have far greater things to spend my money on currently, like paying for my wedding.

Just my 4,862 cents.

 

[DAVE_M]

I'll say this...

If it's out of my price range, I don't buy it. It's all about needs and wants. A $15 Mora cuts paper just like my customs do, but I don't own any Mora's.

 

[Jens Schuetz]

What does HI have to do with Busse? Why does HI pop up here repeatedly? Didn't see the OP mention it even once.
Anyways.
They aren't even competing for the same market and their knife shapes and weights and fittings are way too different to compare. Apples or Oranges? None is really better and most like both even if they are different.
Once Busse brings out some Khukri with the weight of an ASTK for example one could see which one of the two chops better and has less hotspots etc. Maybe a differential heat treat of one and different edge geometry compensates for the kind of steel in the other. No telling until both companies produce something good which looks similar at least on the surface and then gets tested and compared by non fan boys.

Even then there are different cool things about both of them which make them different enough to want each one of them.

I like industrial latest high tech with super steels and fancy space materials but also art with 100s of years of history. So far I haven't had an HI break on me so a Busse Kuk with modern steel wouldn't add any real objectibe value to me, still I'd buy one if they had one. Even if hyped and not needed it's just cool to have and play with.

Superior handy craft and beautyy vs superior material? I pay a premium for both and so do others or else they couldn't charge that much.

Combining both would be a third thing I'd throw my money at.

Oh and on the Busse prices im sure they could be cheaper if made in Nepal. HI prices would have to go up once they would be handmade by knife artists in the USA.

 

[EBHM4]

I like Busse's blades, but since I'm mostly a folder guy, I'd rather have an ESEE or a Becker, or a Scrapyard or Swamp Rat that will do much of the same work and fit my needs much the same for cheaper. Does that mean Busse blades are overpriced? No, it simply means they are priced out of what I am willing to spend. Something only becomes objectively overpriced when it's priced out of the range of enough people that sales suffer. That's economics, and that's why Busse has Scrapyard and Swamp Rat as well, to try to hit the lower priced markets.

 

[B34NS]

OP, would you consider spring steels being sold by ABS Mastersmiths to be "cost inflated"?

 

[onojoe]

What he said

There is a lot the OP is not taking into account.

1. The economy of scale: Individual knifemakers do not have the ability to get quantity discount on premium steels. Steel is sold direct only to wholesellers who buy in the tonnage. Those wholesellers resale to other sellers and individuals. Even a large company such as KAI doesn't have enough quantity to get a substantial discount or get a special run of material. What I mean by this is, let's say KAI wants s110v but no s110v is being produced, unless KAI wants to pay a setup fee and buy in the tonnage for a special run of 500 knives, they will have to get the material from a reseller at a premium. The truth is knifemakers & knife suppliers do not have enough quantity to make demands for exotic materials, hence increased cost. I was speaking with a well known maker about marbled CF and he told me he just put in a gigantic order for marbled CF, it was 4 ft. He told me it might last him a year or 2. 4 ft of CF would not cover a panel in some applications...

2. It is extremely expensive to manufacture product both commercially & individually: Most average knifemakers are not driving Ferrari's. Even pimpers don't make that much money. It's not just the cost of materials, but also the cost of equipment, maintenance, time & their health. What you see is a $500 piece of moku-ti, $50 piece of CF, $200 piece of damascus and think the cost of the knife should be $750. You forget the hidden costs. A good belt grinder 2 x 72 is $2k, all the different belts on average is $500 for a couple months, bandsaw blades, screws, cnc maintenance, heat treat oven, adhesives, end mills &etc etc etc. Now on top of that add the time element. A maker might put in 40 hrs on a knife and charge you an extra $400 to the knife. You think that is a good salary except its only $10/hr. Even worse is the cost of health and injury. They pay for their own insurance, they get severe health side effects from making knives.

3. Quality difference: to achieve a certain level of quality it cost money. If you understand TQM or QA principles there is a point where the return of quality is not justified. Just think of 6 Sigma (I'm a blackbelt btw), to get to a 6 sigma (3.4 defects per 1 million opportunity) is astronomical and not obtainable in most cases. The curve for quality is not LINEAR, it's EXPONENTIAL. Let's say a knife rating is 1-10, being 10 the best. To get a knife from level 1 to level 5 might be only a 25% increase in price and a 100% in quality. To get a knife from level 5 to level 7 might be a 100% increase in price & a 30% increase to quality. To get a knife from level 8 to level 9 might be a 500% increase in price but only at a 10% increase in quality. The curves are not linear. Companies such as KAI invest a crap ton in the technology to design & reach a certain level of quality.

4. Market prices: they are dictated by consumers & investors. The knife makers do not benefit from this, the middlemen do. I define middlemen as anyone who is reselling the knife after the maker. RJ Martins prices have only increased slightly for his table prices, yet his knives immediately sell for 200%. He doesn't see that price profit, the middlemen do.

Finally, this market is ruled by the same laws of economics as every other market, the rules of demand & supply. If you really want to curb the cost, don't participate in the market, it will eventually go down. What is even more of a factor is the overall economy, as the economy self-corrects due artificial inflation, people will have less money to spend on extracurricular interest.

I have been a mechanical engineer (primarily executive business now {MBA}) for over 15 years now, working in vary diverse fields, including investment castings (titanium & steels). It takes a tremendous amount of money, knowledge, skill & luck for businesses to survive. I'm all for knifemakers to see the direct profit, not the middlemen.

Recently, I have been doing my own knife designs and buying equipment to make knives. I'm doing this as a hobby and had no plans to actually sale a knife. Still, I did a very easy cost/profit analysis and I realized quickly I could not sell a knife for profit. If I did it would be in the $1k range, which I would not feel comfortable selling a knife at my level for. So basically, I just have an expensive hobby and the business side is useless until I reach a certain level of quality & experience.

I hope I have added some useful knowledge to this thread.

 

[elbowroom]

Kind of a ridiculous premise, but, I say, research what you want to buy, don't believe the hype, ask questions, read blade forums, determine your own value system and lastly "let the buyer beware" Value is subjective. You can apply it to anything.

Hi guys

This will surely remind you few real life ongoing marketing tricks within knife and cutlery industry.

Please,read and think of links to all of possible companies, to whom this may apply these days....Surely, a lot of people, who have very little or no knowledge within knife industry and metalurgy will have no clue,what i am talking about,but those who do,please,share your honest opinions and tips here,who might just be the winner of "Inflated price marketing"

Many so called "best and guaranteed experts in the field" will see a knife,,,that can be decent sort of quality and very reasonably priced,lets call it 120 USD,,,,this "expert" however call this knife a junk,,,,thinking of its price tag is just not good enough for him,to bragg around....

However,if the company making this knife decide to make a marketing move of adding "secret composition and cook the steel" to the "world's unbeatable quality" along with multiplying price to 650 USD for the very same knife.....guess what will happend?!!!!

The very same guy "the expert" will spot very same knife for the price tag of 650 USD with "guaranteed best of the best of the best" package,,,,hi will work even overtime,just to save up money for this "super-knife" of "best quality ever" and once he make a purchase,he will never stop braging around, about "superiority" of his knife to all around,in all possible forums,often created and controled by the very same knife company,,,who added "secret stuff" to ordinary steel, making their steel "superior to all world steels".......

This guy,knowing very little or nothing about steel metalurgy,will just get involved his friends and all around people, who is having no clue also,to buy this "super expensive,the best of the best knife" and will spread the rumours arround into wide community, who are having same "knife expertise",,, all happy to pay ten times more,than the knife is really worth, because only the "best of the best " cost that much.....guaranteed,no discussion about that,with anybody,who may disagree at any point....Blinded,close minded,tricked,ripped off,with little knowledge,these people create all comunities of "knife supremacists" convinced-their knifes are absolute superior to all knifes,ever made.....

When you make a valid point and make this people "angry" or hesitating about their "only truth",,, they just keep insulting you,right,left,centre only to prove their superiority no matter what....

There is number of companies today,operating with very successful and tricky INFLATING PRICE MARKETING,with overly agressive advertisements,often very false,catching into their web,more and more "experts" thanks to their prejudice to price......

Which company would you consider the winner in this sort of inflated price marketing?

Thanks for any opinions, have some fun guys,set your feelings free here in this thread!