Info on "Collin's Legitimus No. 986" hudson bay head?

[carcdr]

I got this axe head from my neighbor. After googling for info about the mark, I noticed that the real company is called "COLLINS", not "COLLIN'S", so it made me wonder if this Legitimus is actually, well, legitimate.

It's about 2 pounds 6 oz, and 6" long across the top.

Anyone know anything about this style of mark? Is this possibly a knockoff?





I gave it a few swipes with sandpaper before stopping to take pictures.

 

[halfaxe]

I have two Collins Legitimus Hudson Bays but they don't have the apostrophe, otherwise the logos are similar. That may be an earlier style of label. Possibly even a serial number. The legitimus word was trademarked by Collins since they couldn't trademark Collins. So it's most likely not counterfeit. Personally if that were mine, and I would love it, I would just use 0000 steel wool to clean the rest of it.

 

[300Six]

Apparently old Collins counterfeits abound. The Collins name may not have been able to be trademarked but I suspect the Legitimus stamp was. I'm looking forward to hear what knowledgeable folks have to say about this. To me there is a too-subtle similarity between Collin's and Collins. If this is a fake then it sure is a crafty one and hopefully similar care was taken during manufacture of the head.

 

[Steve Tall]

For comparison (photos referenced below):

...
...

I would have a lot more confidence in this being made by Collins if its stamp looked like this one (from a similar axe). Note the greater detail in the hand and fingers:

...

According to YesteryearsTools, manufacturers in Europe were making counterfeit Collins axes, some with identical markings, some with near-identical markings, from the mid-1800s up to around 1923 (or later). The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread. The fake Collins axes were exported from Europe to markets around the world.

"It was determined that a significant number of English edge tool makers, mostly located in Birmingham, were identified as using some version of the Collins name and/or markings. Some were actually duplicating the markings exactly as Collins was marking their goods. The guilty parties were then exporting the goods, so marked, to various markets around the world... Reports have indicated that a similar practice was undertaken some years later by some German manufacturers... A statement in The Collins Company 1923 catalog solicited information about such frauds and indicated that the information would be held in the strictest confidence.

The specific appearance of the markings are believed to have been stampings that looked very much like, if not identical to, the actual Collins Co. markings. Apparently there were no labels involved in the marking of the counterfeit Collins axes."

from http://yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears%20Tools/Collins%20Pt.%202.html

 

[300Six]

I knew you'd come through with the goods on this Steve. Pretty brazen for English and German makers to deliberately have been doing this. The sole identifier in this example is the apostrophe in Collins. Presumably there is honour amongst thieves as they elected to be able to identify their own stuff over the genuine article. What an example of "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".
However if the fakes are Birmingham or Solingen steel and made by tradesmen then the quality ought to be good and as a collectible I would imagine a clever bogus Collins has more value now than the real thing!

 

[halfaxe]

Well if it is a fake Collins, that to me would still be worthy in a collection of historical axes, and may be more rare than the real Legitimus. It also could be a fine user of decent quality. It doesn't appear to be junk.

 

[Square_peg]

The arm and hand don't look quite right to me but more importantly I've never seen that crown. I just checked a few of my Legitimii and they all show 5 points on the crown not 7 like this axe.

 

[300Six]

The arm and hand don't look quite right to me but more importantly I've never seen that crown. I just checked a few of my Legitimii and they all show 5 points on the crown not 7 like this axe.

Good eye! I guess when you counterfeit mass produced items that come under some sort of scrutiny (like as a warrantee at the hardware stores as well as with the distributor) you do have to ensure that you yourself can differentiate between what you made and what was crafted by somebody else. Number of points in a crown and strategic apostrophes all help. Be interested to see stamp renditions from other fakes. They would have had to fight it out amongst themselves as to who altered what.

 

[quinton]

Mine show 5 pointed crown also.

 

[rjdankert]

Here is a comparison of the OP's axe to another Collins HB with a better mark:

Bob

 

[rjdankert]

. . . The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread. . .

The "earlier thread" link takes me to the thread titled "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern", page 5, post #82:

A 1915 reference to Hudson Bay axes made by Collins and available at Abercrombie & Fitch.

...In the March issue, a Subscriber wishes to know where he can obtain a 24 inch Collins Hudson Bay Axe. These style axes come In 23 inch not 24 Inch handles and 27 lnch handles They may be purchased at Abercromble & Fitch Company 57 W 36th St New York City NY. The 23 inch costs 80 cents and the 27 inch 90 cents. These prices exclude of course the leather sheath which sells for $1.00. Also you must pay the postage. No better axe ever cut my trap stakes than the 23 inch and I have found no better one for cutting winter kindling than the 27 Inch.
-- Skutch, the Lone Trapper, N.Y.

Hunter-trader-trapper, Volume 30, F.J. and W.F. Heer, 1915, page 137

Can't find No 986 made by Collins or a 1910 date. Is there another link?

Thanks,

Bob

 

[300Six]

When you consider how big and wide the market for gentlemen's and sportsmen's (and even woodsmen/trappers) axes were 100-120 years ago, and how slow and primitive transport, communications and rendering facsimile pictures/photos was, it's a wonder there weren't huge numbers of fakes. Discovering/investigating/prosecuting makers of copies of implements in far away jurisdictions (England and Germany) that were well across the pond from the USA Collins plant would have been very difficult to nail down, and suppliers and distributors wouldn't have been helpful either presuming they were party to this deception and also made money off it.
This is a great thread! Opens your eyes to unsavory activity in the name of boosting profits at the expense of a brand name. These counterfeiters could have given Collins a real black eye if the quality of their goods was lousy but somehow I don't think (Birmingham, Solingen making junk!) that was the case.

 

[Hickory n steel]

The letters are also finer and further spaced apart. That is obviously a counterfeit.
Maybe it's still a good axe though, I'd take something hard like an Allen wrench or drill bit and tap on the bit listening for than nice ring that good steel should have.

 

[Steve Tall]

The "earlier thread" link takes me to the thread titled "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern", page 5, post #82:

Can't find No 986 made by Collins or a 1910 date. Is there another link?

Thanks,

Bob

That is the correct link. It goes to the thread that includes references to the Collins 986 pattern being used for Abercrombie and Fitch's Hudson Bay axes, which date back to the 1910s (as in tens or teens, just like 1920s means nineteen-twenties). I linked to that particular post (instead of just linking to the beginning of the 7-page thread) because it had a mention from 1915 (Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for A&F), and the same linked page also had an example from 1912, as well as a post with similar axes (Abercrombie & Fitch, Collins) with the 986 stamp. The auction listing for the A&F axe describes it as being stamped "Collins, Legitimus, No. 986" on one side, and "Abercrombie & Fitch, New York" on the other side.

From a couple old auction listings shown at WorthPoint, with Hudson Bay axes that were stamped "Collins, Legitimus, No. 986" on one side, and "Abercrombie & Fitch, New York" on the other side of the head:

The stamping is on the left side of the head for it's maker (Photo 5): "No. 986 (no room for the 6)/ Hammer & Crown logo/ Collins & Co. Cast Steel/ Hartford Warranted/ Legitimus." ---- And the right side for its retailer (Photo 4): "Abercrombie/ &/ Fitch/ New York." The sheath is marked: "Abercrombie & Fitch/ A&F/ New York" (Photo 6). And the piece-de-resistance is the "A&F Co" buttons (Photo7). Overall -- 27". Head -- 7" wide; 4" edge.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/king-axes-collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-253011460

This is an old Collins axe #986 in good condition. No major damage but the head is a little loose. The handle looks original and has old scratches and a slight bow to one side. The stamp on the axe head is: Abercrombie & Fitch NEW YORK on one side and Collins Legitimus "No. 986 with the crown and arm symbol. It is a total length of just under 24 inches, the head is 6 3/8 inches and the cutting edge is 3.25 inches.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-collins-legitimus-abercrombie-fitch-axe

Another example of a Hudson Bay axe from Collins, with Collins stamps shown along with the "No. 986" stamp:

13. Collins No. 986 camp axe with leather sheath, VG.

 

[rjdankert]

That is the correct link. It goes to the thread that includes references to the Collins 986 pattern being used for Abercrombie and Fitch's Hudson Bay axes . . .

Agree that Collins HB's were available at A & F in 1915. But I still do not see mention of the No 986 mark in this link.

. . .The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread. . .

1915 is in the 1910's, but does not necessarily indicate 1910 - 1914 and certainly not earlier.

From the "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern", page 4, post #80:

A 1912 publication showing "The Hudson Bay Axe, courtesy Abercrombie & Fitch Co.":

"There is one pattern of axe known as the Hudson Bay axe that is best for a canoe or trapper; it is light weight, about two pounds, with twenty-seven inch handle. If it is cold weather you will want a full size axe."

Hunter-trader-trapper, Volume 24, F.J. and W.F. Heer, 1912, page 66

No mention of Collins in the above reference.

From a couple old auction listings shown at WorthPoint, with Hudson Bay axes that were stamped "Collins, Legitimus, No. 986" on one side, and "Abercrombie & Fitch, New York" on the other side of the head:

The stamping is on the left side of the head for it's maker (Photo 5): "No. 986 (no room for the 6)/ Hammer & Crown logo/ Collins & Co. Cast Steel/ Hartford Warranted/ Legitimus." ---- And the right side for its retailer (Photo 4): "Abercrombie/ &/ Fitch/ New York." The sheath is marked: "Abercrombie & Fitch/ A&F/ New York" (Photo 6). And the piece-de-resistance is the "A&F Co" buttons (Photo7). Overall -- 27". Head -- 7" wide; 4" edge.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/king-axes-collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-253011460. . .

Too bad we can't see the Collins mark:

How do we know that a "6" is missing? How many points on the crown? Question addressed to anyone.


Second Worthpoint listing:

From a couple old auction listings shown at WorthPoint, with Hudson Bay axes that were stamped "Collins, Legitimus, No. 986" on one side, and "Abercrombie & Fitch, New York" on the other side of the head:
. . .

This is an old Collins axe #986 in good condition. No major damage but the head is a little loose. The handle looks original and has old scratches and a slight bow to one side. The stamp on the axe head is: Abercrombie & Fitch NEW YORK on one side and Collins Legitimus "No. 986 with the crown and arm symbol. It is a total length of just under 24 inches, the head is 6 3/8 inches and the cutting edge is 3.25 inches.
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-collins-legitimus-abercrombie-fitch-axe

. . .

Pictures no longer available for this listing. Seller states "Collins Legitimus "No. 986 with the crown and arm symbol.". Again I wonder how many points on the crown? Question addressed to anyone.

. . .

Another example of a Hudson Bay axe from Collins, with Collins stamps shown along with the "No. 986" stamp:

13. Collins No. 986 camp axe with leather sheath, VG.

This is the most intriguing to me.

Comparison to OP axe:

AFAIK L & I J White was a manufacturer of edged tools and may have also been a hardware distributor as well. I don't know, but am interested in finding more. Also would like to know more about the Collins & Co Hartford stamp. What I've found so far is a little vague.

Bob

 

[Steve Tall]

Agree that Collins HB's were available at A & F in 1915. But I still do not see mention of the No 986 mark in this link.


1915 is in the 1910's, but does not necessarily indicate 1910 - 1914 and certainly not earlier.

From the "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern", page 4, post #80:

No mention of Collins in the above reference.


Too bad we can't see the Collins mark:

How do we know that a "6" is missing? How many points on the crown? Question addressed to anyone.


Second Worthpoint listing:

Pictures no longer available for this listing. Seller states "Collins Legitimus "No. 986 with the crown and arm symbol.". Again I wonder how many points on the crown? Question addressed to anyone.



This is the most intriguing to me.

Comparison to OP axe:

AFAIK L & I J White was a manufacturer of edged tools and may have also been a hardware distributor as well. I don't know, but am interested in finding more. Also would like to know more about the Collins & Co Hartford stamp. What I've found so far is a little vague.

Bob

What I wrote still stands, exactly as written, and I thought that it was sufficient without further elaboration, but I guess I was wrong.

I initially wrote:
The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.
This refers to information in a thread, not a specific post. Note that it's talking about the 1910s, which is a period ranging from 1910 to 1919. The phrase "if not earlier" is a qualifier to indicate that they might have been made earlier (I don't know), so the 1910s was not necessarily the beginning date of production. The "Collins No. 986" is Collins' model number (or pattern number) for their Hudson Bay axes.

This evidently was confusing, so I elaborated with this explanation:
That is the correct link. It goes to the thread that includes references to the Collins 986 pattern being used for Abercrombie and Fitch's Hudson Bay axes, which date back to the 1910s (as in tens or teens, just like 1920s means nineteen-twenties). I linked to that particular post (instead of just linking to the beginning of the 7-page thread) because it had a mention from 1915 (Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for A&F), and the same linked page also had an example from 1912, as well as a post with similar axes (Abercrombie & Fitch, Collins) with the 986 stamp. The auction listing for the A&F axe describes it as being stamped "Collins, Legitimus, No. 986" on one side, and "Abercrombie & Fitch, New York" on the other side.

A recap:
1912 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
1915 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
Auction listing -- for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

I realize that there's no irrefutable evidence that the auction listing wasn't fraudulent, and we can't see the photos of the stamps, but putting it all together, my conclusions seem reasonable to me.

(By the way, the "L & I J White" stamp is not from the axe, it's from the other item in the photo.)

 

[rjdankert]

What I wrote still stands, exactly as written, and I thought that it was sufficient without further elaboration, but I guess I was wrong.

I initially wrote:
The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.
This refers to information in a thread. . .

This evidently was confusing, so I elaborated with this explanation:
That is the correct link. It goes to the thread that includes references to the Collins 986 pattern . . .

Is this the thread referred to in the above (in bold) " ...as shown in an earlier thread" titled "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern"? If this is the thread, I could not find any further information in that thread on the No 986 than is contained in this thread. That is why I asked if there was another link.

. . .
A recap:
1912 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
1915 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
Auction listing -- for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

I realize that there's no irrefutable evidence that the auction listing wasn't fraudulent, and we can't see the photos of the stamps, but putting it all together, my conclusions seem reasonable to me. . .

See post #15 above.

. . .
(By the way, the "L & I J White" stamp is not from the axe, it's from the other item in the photo.)

Those pictures came from the Great Plains Trading Company website. The tools for sale page states "I have no tools for direct sale at this time.". So there is no longer a description available.

I assume these two refer to the axe:

Bob

 

[Steve Tall]

Is this the thread referred to in the above (in bold) " ...as shown in an earlier thread" titled "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern"? If this is the thread, I could not find any further information in that thread on the No 986 than is contained in this thread. That is why I asked if there was another link.


See post #15 above.



Those pictures came from the Great Plains Trading Company website. The tools for sale page states "I have no tools for direct sale at this time.". So there is no longer a description available.

I assume these two refer to the axe:

Bob

I'll assume that this isn't trolling, and address the additional questions/comments.

As previously clarified, YES that link to another thread was the correct link. And YES that linked thread actually DID have additional information not included in this current thread (I added this information to the current thread AFTER the question about whether there was another link):
(a) 1912 mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
(b) 1915 mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
(c) Auction listing for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

As previously explained, that additional information (a), (b), and (c) was the basis for my statement that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread." This information did NOT appear in this current thread (as claimed) until after the initial question about the link.

Post #15 has already been seen and addressed.

About my statement: the "L & I J White" stamp is not from the axe, it's from the other item in the photo.
I wouldn't have written that unless there was a good basis for it. I had found the actual listing for those items (I think it was cached on google at the time) and Item 13 was the axe stamped Collins, and Item 14 was a cooper's shave stamped L & I J White. The photo was a composite for the two items and their stamps, I couldn't get a link to just the axe portion.

 

[Steve Tall]

...Those pictures came from the Great Plains Trading Company website. The tools for sale page states "I have no tools for direct sale at this time.". So there is no longer a description available.

Here is the page from Great Plains Trading with the description (from 2008):
http://www.greatplanestrading.com/StP/StP1.htm

13. Collins No. 986 camp axe with leather sheath, VG. Photo
14. Fine L&I.J. White coopers chamfer knife. Photo


This is the photo used for both items:

 

[halfaxe]

I think the original axe posted is an old counterfeit Collins too now after all the info presented so I also admit to typing before research which is my usual style. However I would think of it as a prime opportunity to compare quality between the forgery and real Collins. These aren't Rolex watches and the monetary value difference today is not significant.