Info on "Collin's Legitimus No. 986" hudson bay head?

[rjdankert]

I'll assume that this isn't trolling, and address the additional questions/comments.

As previously clarified, YES that link to another thread was the correct link. And YES that linked thread actually DID have additional information not included in this current thread (I added this information to the current thread AFTER the question about whether there was another link):
(a) 1912 mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
(b) 1915 mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
(c) Auction listing for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

As previously explained, that additional information (a), (b), and (c) was the basis for my statement that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread." This information did NOT appear in this current thread (as claimed) until after the initial question about the link. . .

What we know from the clarified link:
(a) A&F sold a HB axe in 1912.
(b) A&F sold a Collins HB in 1915
(c) A&F might have sold a HB (Collins No 986) at some time.

What I cannot find:
- What year(s) did Collins make HB's for A&F?
- What year(s) did Collins make No 986 marked HB's for A&F? (assuming for the sake of discussion, they did)

. . .Post #15 has already been seen and addressed. . .

Seen - maybe, addressed - ???

. . .About my statement: the "L & I J White" stamp is not from the axe, it's from the other item in the photo.
I wouldn't have written that unless there was a good basis for it. I had found the actual listing for those items (I think it was cached on google at the time) and Item 13 was the axe stamped Collins, and Item 14 was a cooper's shave stamped L & I J White. The photo was a composite for the two items and their stamps, I couldn't get a link to just the axe portion.

In the very post I am responding to here, the L & I J White stamp is excluded from the picture (referenced from my post #18).

Bob

 

[grafton]

The only thing I can add to this is that the 1907 A&F catalog does not list any Hudson Bay axes. As to when they started selling them, the "teens" seems to be as close as we can get and that is plenty close enough for me. The A&F marked 986 HBs predate the A&F HBs that are not marked 986. Call that hearsay if you like but I have seen enough of them to be confident in that determination. Collins made the Hudson Bays for A&F and David T. Abercrombie Co. They are right there in the old catalogs to see and again I have seen several in person. One side has the mark of the retailer and the other side sports the Collins marks. The early Collins Hudson Bay head shape and size as well as the handle lengths and shapes are all easily identified even without documentation but I don't expect that to satisfy everyone...

 

[Steve Tall]

The only thing I can add to this is that the 1907 A&F catalog does not list any Hudson Bay axes. As to when they started selling them, the "teens" seems to be as close as we can get and that is plenty close enough for me. The A&F marked 986 HBs predate the A&F HBs that are not marked 986. Call that hearsay if you like but I have seen enough of them to be confident in that determination. Collins made the Hudson Bays for A&F and David T. Abercrombie Co. They are right there in the old catalogs to see and again I have seen several in person. One side has the mark of the retailer and the other side sports the Collins marks. The early Collins Hudson Bay head shape and size as well as the handle lengths and shapes are all easily identified even without documentation but I don't expect that to satisfy everyone...

Thank you for the information.

 

[garry3]

Good information in here, thank you gentleman!

Here is one I was watching on that auction site recently. I did not buy it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-TOMOHA...10%2FTZcnv6UMVuQTL7Ps%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[Square_peg]

However I would think of it as a prime opportunity to compare quality between the forgery and real Collins. These aren't Rolex watches and the monetary value difference today is not significant.

A file test followed by a work test would be a good comparison.

 

[garry3]

A file test followed by a work test would be a good comparison.

I do believe that our friends the English tried to put Green River knife works out of business back in the day also. I have what is one of there forgeries. Its a nice quality knife and I have heard most where sold below cost in an effort to drive the American manufacturer out of business.

I suspect that the English Collin's may be of high quality, not so much to make a profit but as economic war fare. Willing to loose the battle to win the war. Much like the Green river knifes.

 

[rjdankert]

The arm and hand don't look quite right to me but more importantly I've never seen that crown. I just checked a few of my Legitimii and they all show 5 points on the crown not 7 like this axe.

Astute observation. :thumbup: I readily admit I missed it.

On the crown/point theme, I just ran across these on Yesterday's Tools. I may be the only one who finds this interesting but Collins apparently did vary the crown.

Four point crown:

Six point crown (on left):

http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2.html

I have no idea if the OP is a legitimate Legitimus, but from what's come up so far. . .

apostrophe + seven point crown = a little fishy

Bob

 

[rjdankert]

Here is an interesting find. Unknown date, A&F, seven point crown:

https://www.facebook.com/AllementsAxes/photos/pcb.1715724035331055/1715723968664395/?type=3&theater

Compare to OP:

Bob

 

[rjdankert]

Good information in here, thank you gentleman!

Here is one I was watching on that auction site recently. I did not buy it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/NICE-TOMOHA...10%2FTZcnv6UMVuQTL7Ps%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

Another No 986 Collins & Co Hartford.

ebay listing photo from garry3's link:

Bob

EDIT to add:

"One means by which Collins & Co. indicated they were the manufacturer was by stamping the company name on their axes. They also included the word Hartford that was the original location of the office maintained by Samuel Collins, the businessman of the operation."
http://www.yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 1.html

 

[300Six]

Good digging rjdankert! Presumably classy Abercrombie & Fitch couldn't be fooled into buying fakes and at least the 7 point crown in that example is headed with a Collins and not Collin's.

 

[Steve Tall]

...According to YesteryearsTools, manufacturers in Europe were making counterfeit Collins axes, some with identical markings, some with near-identical markings, from the mid-1800s up to around 1923 (or later)...

Where I was going with this (before the sidetrack with repeated questions about my link, etc.) is that there is some overlap (time-wise) between the reported troubles Collins was having with counterfeits, and Collins' production of Hudson Bay pattern axes.

Collins' problems with English manufacturers seem to have ended before the 1900s, as a result of some court cases in England where Collins prevailed:

from https://books.google.com/books?id=bElNAQAAMAAJ&dq=collins%20hartford%20fraud&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q&f=false

from https://books.google.com/books?id=ju08AQAAIAAJ&pg=PA388#v=onepage&q&f=false


It's interesting that around this time (mid-1800s), some German manufacturers of tools and cutlery were alleged to copy English products, making "low-priced and inferior articles, wretchedly bad":

from https://books.google.com/books?id=g-TQAAAAMAAJ&dq=collins%20hartford%20germany%20fraud&pg=RA1-PA219#v=onepage&q=collins%20hartford%20germany%20fraud&f=false


By the time that Collins was making the Hudson Bay pattern, it looks like their problems with English copies were over (because of the support from English courts), but makers in Germany (and potentially other countries) were evidently causing problems for Collins into the 1900s.

The Connecticut Historical Society has a Museum and Library with a collection of Collins Co. records from 1826-1950. Part of this collection is "Memoranda related to the German Fraud, 1871-1913". Included in Box 3, Folder 7 are "scrapbooks of German Fraud Correspondence, 1877-1887 and 1906-1913."
https://chs.org/finding_aides/finding_aids/collins-co.html

There is not much overlap (if any) here between the "German Fraud" and Collins' production of Hudson Bay axes, so a source of counterfeits could very well be from a country other than Germany or England. It would be interesting to see just what details are contained in that library collection. Since "there are no restrictions on access to the collection", if anyone has a chance to visit this museum in Hartford, I believe this forum would be interested to hear what information you find.

After 1913, Collins could still have been troubled by fraudulent copies being marketed, as their 1923 (and possibly later) catalog stated, "Beware of Frauds... principally made in Germany... exact imitations of our stamps and labels, or those which purposely bear a resemblance to them." (I will post an image of this page, or a link.)

 

[Steve Tall]

From the Illustrated Catalog of The Collins Company,
Seventeenth Edition, 1923

 

[carcdr]

Thank you for all the interesting info about Collins and the likelihood that this is an imitation of the real thing.

I'm going to clean it up more and make a handle for it. Given its size (about 6" long) and weight (about 2.5 pounds), what would be a traditional handle length for this head?

 

[rjdankert]

. . .what would be a traditional handle length for this head?

I don't know. FWIW, Here is a 1916 A&F ad for two sizes of their HB offerings:

Bob

 

[grafton]

Thank you for all the interesting info about Collins and the likelihood that this is an imitation of the real thing.

I'm going to clean it up more and make a handle for it. Given its size (about 6" long) and weight (about 2.5 pounds), what would be a traditional handle length for this head?

As rjdankert posted above, the correct handle would be 27". Most early HB's will have a slim handle of either 23''-24" or 27"
If the head is 2 pounds or over I would probably go with the 27" If you could find an older handle that would look best but you can always thin a new one down too. A 28" HB handle with a small eye is what you want and that will give you close to 27" after seating the head and trimming the top. To get the right look and feel your new handle will have to be thinned considerably and especially the area just below the head that tends to be overly thick on new handles. The width of the handle where it meets the head should not be any wider than the head of the axe. You can recreate the full fawns foot as well if you want after seating the head although I have seen clipped fawns foot handles on some early ones as well. To me a vintage head on an obviously modern thick beast of a handle looks and feels all wrong but tastes vary...

 

[carcdr]

As rjdankert posted above, the correct handle would be 27". Most early HB's will have a slim handle of either 23''-24" or 27"
If the head is 2 pounds or over I would probably go with the 27" If you could find an older handle that would look best but you can always thin a new one down too. A 28" HB handle with a small eye is what you want and that will give you close to 27" after seating the head and trimming the top. To get the right look and feel your new handle will have to be thinned considerably and especially the area just below the head that tends to be overly thick on new handles. The width of the handle where it meets the head should not be any wider than the head of the axe. You can recreate the full fawns foot as well if you want after seating the head although I have seen clipped fawns foot handles on some early ones as well. To me a vintage head on an obviously modern thick beast of a handle looks and feels all wrong but tastes vary...

Thanks for the info. I'm going to make the handle myself - I have a lot of ash trees available, the tools, and (usually) the patience. I'll try to follow these guidelines.

 

[rjdankert]

. . .(before the sidetrack with repeated questions about my link, etc.). . .

Had a real link been provided to verify the claim that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.", this thread would have been considerably shorter. Instead, non-specific references continued to be provided and still no answer.

Here is a summary of the inquiries:

post #4 above

. . . The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread. . . .

post #11 above

The "earlier thread" link takes me to the thread titled "The drawback in the Hudson Bay pattern", page 5, post #82:

Can't find No 986 made by Collins or a 1910 date. Is there another link?

Thanks,

Bob

post #14 above

That is the correct link. It goes to the thread that includes references to the Collins 986 pattern being used for Abercrombie and Fitch's Hudson Bay axes, which date back to the 1910s (as in tens or teens. . .

post #15 above

Agree that Collins HB's were available at A & F in 1915. But I still do not see mention of the No 986 mark in this link. . .

Bob

post #16 above

What I wrote still stands, exactly as written, and I thought that it was sufficient without further elaboration, but I guess I was wrong.

I initially wrote:
The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.
This refers to information in a thread, not a specific post.

post #17 above

. . . If this is the thread, I could not find any further information in that thread on the No 986 than is contained in this thread. That is why I asked if there was another link. . .

Bob

post #18 above

. . .
As previously clarified, YES that link to another thread was the correct link. And YES that linked thread actually DID have additional information not included in this current thread (I added this information to the current thread AFTER the question about whether there was another link):
(a) 1912 mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
(b) 1915 mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
(c) Auction listing for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

As previously explained, that additional information (a), (b), and (c) was the basis for my statement that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.". . .

post #21 above

What we know from the clarified link:
(a) A&F sold a HB axe in 1912.
(b) A&F sold a Collins HB in 1915
(c) A&F might have sold a HB (Collins No 986) at some time.

What I cannot find:
- What year(s) did Collins make HB's for A&F?
- What year(s) did Collins make No 986 marked HB's for A&F? (assuming for the sake of discussion, they did) . . .

Bob

Bob

 

[Steve Tall]

Had a real link been provided to verify the claim that "The Collins No. 986 was being made in the 1910s, if not earlier, as shown in an earlier thread.", this thread would have been considerably shorter. Instead, non-specific references continued to be provided and still no answer.

Here is a summary of the inquiries:

post #4 above


post #11 above


post #14 above


post #15 above


post #16 above


post #17 above


post #18 above


post #21 above


Bob

Bob, a real link was actually provided, along with this real answer (from post #16), among others:

...
A recap:
1912 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe from Abercrombie & Fitch
1915 -- mention of Hudson Bay axe made by Collins for Abercrombie & Fitch.
Auction listing -- for Abercrombie & Fitch axe stamped "Collins Legitimus No. 986"

I realize that there's no irrefutable evidence that the auction listing wasn't fraudulent, and we can't see the photos of the stamps, but putting it all together, my conclusions seem reasonable to me.

...

That was my answer. As with a lot of axe history, there's no absolutely ironclad, irrefutable evidence having no exceptions. Could the auction listing be fraudulent, for example? Sure, but that seems unlikely. I laid out the evidence I had, and stated that my conclusions seem reasonable to me. I get it that you don't agree on this point, but so what? What's really at stake here?

The overall conclusion I was making was about whether Collins' production of Hudson Bay axes could have had some overlap with the problems they had with fraudulent copies. We don't need to know the exact dates to come to this conclusion.

 

[garry3]

From the Illustrated Catalog of The Collins Company,
Seventeenth Edition, 1923

Interesting "All COLLINS tools are now stamped with this design".

Kind of makes a guy think about the Legitmus being a premium line, but the ones I have worked with have been just that( but only a hand full). Maybe when manufactured has something to do with it.

 

[300Six]

Collins must have had an International good reputation which commanded high prices (or demand) in order for them to have gone to all those conniptions with extra names and stamps. Did Plumb, Kelly or any of the other big makers ever suffer through such indignities?