Insults to knifemakers

There's several people in this old world, that purchasing is a game. I've seen it several times while watching others purchasing all kinds of things that people try to sell. For some its just the feeling that they got to you, so therefore they win the game. If you had taken the persons offer or even told them that you could only knock off $10 if you wanted to, that person would have felt like they got the better end of the deal. Also its usually the people that have great sums of money that play this game, go figure.


I just price as I see fit, this is a very expensive occupation and I'm not going to do it for nothing, if a person doesn't like my prices then they don't have to buy, and thats what I'll usually tell anyone that wants to dicker. Don't get me wrong though, I will try to work with my customers and make a knife more in their price range but only to the point that it doesn't take away from the quality and I have to work for peanuts.. They won't work for nothing so why should they expect you to. If they do, then they need to go to wal-mart.


I.G. you better see the guys ole lady first, before you make that offer. That might be what he's hoping for. :D :D

Bill
 
I've been in my own retail biz for years now. be it Chain saws. logging supplies,
leather stuff, knives or what ever..
there are all kinds that make up the world out there
and we want them all for customers,,, if the price is right .
you know what you have in it and how bad you want to sell it.
say yes or no..
if you want to play the game mark your stuff up some, and haggle down
but you stand the chance of a no sale to the ones that won't haggle.
if he's looking for a deal he doesn't know who you are and
what he's looking for anyway other than price
BUT he could be a new customer later with more sales from him down the road when he learns the ropes.
just 2 cents there is a lot to it but really simple too, you are the seller yes or no...
 
There's nothing wrong with a little haggling. My years of haggling at flea markets have taught me the fine art of it, and if someone tries to save a buck, why not? I don't think its insulting. Of course if they come off disrespectful, then I just politely tell them the price is firm. Serious buyers will respect this, and chumps will walk. Treat each customer like your best friend.

Its all about profit, really. Who stands to profit? Like Gib said, sometimes we aren't even making $5 a hour on some things and the longer it takes to make something, the more we need/should charge. Ultimately, it's up to the maker to set the price, but customers only buy what they are willing to pay for, so they have a say in it also. Lots of times, when a customer is really fondling a knife and doing some serious drooling over it, but the only thing making him hesitant is the price. I say, "Look. This is what I can do for you. You pay me my asking price, and if you decide to have me make a knife just for you in the future, I'll only charge you 75%. Deal?" I sell a lot of knives that way; a lot of them even take me up on my order. As long as you are making a profit, you are coming out ahead, and it's all good.
 
OT Jeff when are you going to post some of your knives
I've only seen that one in your avatar but can't see it well..let see some guy.. :)
 
Morning Gentlemen,

Being one of the semi-ignorant masses at large buying knives, I may be able to give a little insight. I can certainly agree with statements made above that a lot of people, by nature, will try to haggle on price. The first and foremost reason I see behind this, is because they're dealing with an individual, and not a retail outlet employee. To this end, I think most of them try to use that opportunity to get a better deal. Basically, it's human nature. You can't jump on _everyone_ that asks, as truth be told, some are that ignorant. They have no _idea_ about the time, materials, or heart that is put into a hand-crafted piece.

I myself have moved along the ranks, from the kid who didn't know any better, thinking that $30 was a king's ransom for a knife, to the state I'm in today, where I am simply awestruck by the kind of workmanship that is available from a craftsmans hands. My personal voyage of discovery took time and education in the form of using, sharpening, and breaking a whole lot of knives. I have come to truly appreciate a very wise saying that I have adopted when it comes to things of this nature; ' Quality Only Hurts Once '.

I've had the fortune of seeing knives made, meeting makers, and above all, learning what goes into a handmade knife. Very few, unfortunately, will ever get that chance. You _have_ to keep this in mind when dealing with someone who is 'working a deal' on something. Human nature, combined with an uneducated vision of what the work is all about, will come to the forefront when shown in the form of a consumer. I build, sell, and service computers. I can at least relate to the difficulty in dealing with customers, human nature, and ignorance. I know where you're coming from. However, part of dealing with people on a more positive note is recognizing and understanding these issues, and working with them to enlighten and educate.

Thankfully, the forums here are a fantastic resource for people to gleen their education from. As makers, if you want to have more educated clients, don't be afraid to share your experiences. I have read a great many threads that you all have run through here, and while I may say little, the things I have learned are invaluable. Stories of broken equipment, working as part-time makers, failed experiements, and the issues of 'fair value' have not been lost on this particular person. Don't lose heart, we ARE out here. People ARE learning.

Sorry for the lengthy posting guys, and I hope you all haven't fallen asleep. I mearly wanted to attempt to possibly give you an insight into an 'average' customer, as well as give you some ideas as to how to deal with more. I'm certainly envious of your talents and skills, and am glad to have had the opportunities that I have to meet some of you. While my talents and skills lie in other areas, I consider myself a 'closet' artisan myself. The toughest part of any job you do yourself, is figuring out what it's worth. How do you justify that expense to a potential client, and help them understand the true meaning of 'value'? It's a constant battle, to be sure, but one always worth fighting.

'Made In America' still means a lot to a great many people, and 'Handcrafted' even moreso. While I take enjoyment out of production knives that I have, I truly covet the few handmade pieces that I'm proud to own. Patience and understanding is the key to bringing people around. Don't take every 'offer' as an insult, but rather, counter it with education.
 
When I used to do shows, haggling was common. I always priced my knives $50 higher than I expected to get. When someone would pick it up a third time, I'd say "I got you now! Tell you what, you pay cash right now and I'll knock $50 off the price." Worked a lot.

However, when someone lowballed me to the point it was insulting, they usually got my drift when it'd go something like this:

"So, you want $150 for this knife? Tell you what, I'll give you $100 cash right now."

"Cool. I don't like to dicker much, but from you I'll only ask $200!"

They got my drift. Actually worked a couple times and I got my $150! If they walked away, so be it.

As an aside: since I was a "hobby" maker (still 40 a week in the shop with a fulltime job elsewhere), I sold at far less than I'd ask today. I sold everything I made. A couple of "pros" with nearby tables hassled me that I was hurting them. Next year at the same show, I doubled my prices to appease them. Still sold more than they did. :eek: It sort of pissed me off that fulltime makers seemed to think they had a right to dictate what I should sell for so they could ask what they wanted. To me, it's sink or swim on your own merits, and each has a right to ask what they want. If that wasn't the case, how come the other side gets no complaint when some makers are getting $1000 for a $300 knife?
 
I have to go with the "It isn't necessarily an insult" crowd. I love to haggle with the right people. I take a great deal of pride in getting a discount from large chains like Walmart.

However....There are things you don't haggle about. Years ago, I was in a pawn shop looking at guns. An older lady came in with a Fox Sterlingworth and a Fox model B shotguns. She wanted to pawn or sell them. They were her late husbands and she need the money. She was not the "Pawn Shop" type either and I suspect this was her first trip.

She told the a$$ behind the counter she need $50.00 each to pay some bills and would be happy to sell them for that. He went into the haggle rumba, telling her the serial numbers weren't right and the finish was worn, etc, etc.

I gave her $150.00 each and smiled the whole way home. The pawn shop banned me from the planet and the lady had some extra money.

Moral, don't haggle by belittling someone's merchandise and don't try to take advantage of people!
 
Dan Gray said:
OT Jeff when are you going to post some of your knives
I've only seen that one in your avatar but can't see it well..let see some guy.. :)
Click to expand...

I'll have to admit I been pretty lax about that, Danno. I got 4 knives all in semi-finished status. Soon as the summer is done, I'll get back to some knifemaking. For now its cedar clapboard and new windows thats taking up all my free time. I got a big bowie planned for some of that red deer you sent me. Two nice hunters half-finished and another tanto. This fall I plan to get back into folders again. I was all set to go whole-hog into getting up a mess of knives to do the NCCA shows, then the wife got a big chunk of money and we decided to rennovate the house. :grumpy:

It sux keeping a f/t job sometimes. No time for knives or even a little fishing these days. Once I get all this house crap behind me, I can dig in and get my creative juices flowing again. I'm hoping by the time October gets here, I'll be done.
 
Good posts!

I can understand Wilson's offence (especially since I don't think he charges near enough!). However, in some cultures its offensive not to haggle!?

BTW:

"Bad, Bad says the buyer," But when he goes his way, then he boasts. Proverbs 20:14

And that was written 900BC. So the tradition does go back a ways.

Personally I don't haggle and wouldn't discount. But wouldn't get offended unless the guy included an insult with his bid.

Steve
 
I see eye to eye with RogerP. I pay what the maker thinks it is worth or I go elsewhere. I have seen knives I think were underpriced and overpriced. That is my opinion. I buy what I like.
However I think it is the Makers duty to educate the new knife buyers about the time and skill part of the business. It makes us all better businessmen.
 
severtecher said:
However I think it is the Makers duty to educate the new knife buyers about the time and skill part of the business. It makes us all better businessmen.
Click to expand...

I agree. I think its okay for the maker to tell how much time he has invested in the knife, and who is any has been involved in collaboration, i.e. engraving, sheath, etc. If a knife collector doesn't find out about the knife from the maker, where will he get this info? Then again, do we really want to stand around our tables at the shows and blah blah blah about how long it took to hand rub this and blah blah blah file that? Not me. If you have to chat up something that much, you should be selling cars. Just MHO! :D
 
When I first got into knives I never understood why knifemakers charged so much.

But recently I've been doing some grinding and filing of my own, and I can see why. It is really hard work, and comparing handmade knives I see to what I've ground out so far, it is quite easy to see that it takes quite awhile to gain the skills to be able to make something nice.

Not to mention materials which arn't cheap, and the possibilities of making mistakes and having to trash a knife.

But I don't think it is worth getting offended over people who just don't know.
 
Hi I just started making knives but have been in the business of providing service to the public for years. If you check out my site I am best known for hand crafted canoe paddles I produce "ONE OF A KIND" paddles it starts with about a 6hr trip minimmum to the custom saw mill then I take the wood home and monitor it for months I have 2 paddles I am working on right now that the wood has been seasoned for 10 yrs now, besides the bandsaw to cut out the blanks that are designed individually and balance I only use hand tools "unplugged". hours more worth of labor go into the making of the paddle. After it is done I spend days putting on the finish hand rubbing it in allowing for a full 24hrs between each coat of which there are seven.
Then I try and sell them for $125 a piece while factory produced high grade ones go for $80 to $110. I still get people pick them up marvel at them compliment me ask how much and then put them down and walk away quitely. Such is the life of a craftsmen and I will bet you good money that as I wrote this and you all read $125 for A CANOE PADDLE? some of you thought that was too much. If that is the persons thing (to buy knives) then they know what to expect and if thay really want to make it their thing then they will learn what to expect. Otherwise get use to the tire kickers.
 
I get hammered by the public all the time at local craft shows to sell 6 for the price of 4, would I take x amount, or will I eat the tax. My answer is always NO!

People don't just don't see my legal business as a business when I set up at a local show for the day. I call it the garage sale mentality.
 
Mr. Wilson & Fellow Knife Knuts,
I truley believe this fellow who offered you 70% of the knife's true value is not a true blue knife/user/collector customer anyway... You said it yourself in the first few sentences. He has no 'knowledge' of what it takes, to start with nothing and turn it into a precise implement!.. He did you a favor actually by divulging his ignorance.. Can you say N~O C~L~U~E!.. Therefore, you DO NOT want that individual for a customer/client now that you know this information, even if he now wants to pay regular price... And I will tell you why... I will bet you he wanted to know if he could get a refund?? if he wasn't happy with the knife too.. My opinin is he did no research on the knife prior to his offer, to either use it, or for a collection. Rather, he was at a show somewhere, or on eBay and saw one, or one like it, go for a HELL of alot more than the $140.00, and figures he will be clever [not like a fox either] and go through you to pretend to be a valid custmer, and after making the purchase, mark it up so he can make the gain for himself leaving the maker with nothing but regret... And if he gets it from you with a money back guarantee, and doen't successfully re~sell the blade for more $$$, than the little 'no account' a$$ goes back to you with some made up pack of lies to get his money back... So you see, there is his motivation! And if he does this with multiple makers and was even somewhat successful at it... Anyway you get my drift... I do not know about the rest of you all, but I just do not want those kinds of folks in our midst.. The valid customers/clients/hunters/fisherman/campers and the like is what makes this obsession so worth while! But when the clowns come through the door, well then you have got a circus!

.. I say screw him and the horse he dose'nt even know how to ride, but wish he knew!!!!!!!!!!! God Bless You All,
Anthony
 
As soon as you offer a discount, you become a used car salesman.

As mentioned before, professionals don't offer discounts. People are paying for a professional service. If they don't like the price of your work, then there are plenty of other people around that will.

Being in my my thirties, I have lived through half a dozen or so bad recessions in my native UK. One thind always stands out in these times. You can always sell good stuff and crap, but the middle range stuff takes a bad hit.

Don't let your customers percieve that your stuff is anywhere near the 'middle' of anything.

I just ordered a knife made from a chap off this site. I wanted it a bit bigger and a couple of other things. I got a firm price with a bunch of options that were a surprise for a price that surprised me.

There is no way on this green earth, that I would have haggled when it was I that was getting the bargain.

You have every right to be offended. In effect, the guy was saying 'your skill isnt worth $5 an hour.' Now, if that isnt an insult I don't know what is!
 
I think it is poor form from a collector to a maker. If I can not afford the knife I can not affort it and that is that as far as my chisiling technique :D.

I would like to think that most of the time the negotiations start out of ignorance, but I know that sometimes it is done due to the nature of the person and ignorance.:eek:

Now yesterday I went to a gun show with Calvin Cooledge, I took my chisels with me.;)
 
Just to add a quick reply...

.. You bet your a$$ he is being insulting! Think just a few short seconds about it... I mean "TEMPER" has got a great point! This pr~ck doesn't care a rats a$$ about your work, but should!!!!!!!!!!!!... Because... ...Does the little panty waste ask his 'Attorney' to give him a discount when he is being sued by his wifes brother, or his 'Doctor' when his hemroids are shooting through through his skin!... Then how much more is a Quality Knifemakers WORK worth when you are out in the Rockies, or the Desert, or in the Rain Forest, ect., ect., stranded up to your a$$ in alligators!!.. With the TOOL[custom knife] that will cut and split kindeling and fire wood to keep you warm, make an all purpose weather shelter, emergency medical litter for an injured friend or loved one, skin or cape game, fillet fish or skin game or generally save your a$$ as it were... HMMMM!
 
man I got beat to all the good Ideas and verbiage :D :D
I was once told if your work is good, don't worry about the price
but I think that applied to guys that have too many customers :confused: :D

if times are good go up if times are bad go down..the law of retail business survival
 
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