Insurance at the buyer’s expense

aVyD

aVyD

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I recently saw a post on a sales forum that stated “insurance at buyer’s expense”. But isn’t the insurance for the seller’s protection? If I bought something from this seller and it got lost in the mail, wouldn’t PayPal refund me regardless of if I paid for HIS insurance (ie he’s SOL)? What do you guys think?
 
aVyD said:
What do you guys think?
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I can't say what I really think... so I'll acknowledge the truth in your statement, and say that sellers like that get their ads closed, even if I truly want the item in question & don't care about insurance (why would I - it's for the seller's protection, not mine)
 
aVyD said:
I recently saw a post on a sales forum that stated “insurance at buyer’s expense”. But isn’t the insurance for the seller’s protection? If I bought something from this seller and it got lost in the mail, wouldn’t PayPal refund me regardless of if I paid for HIS insurance (ie he’s SOL)? What do you guys think?
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I agree that the insurance is for the seller. I would just avoid this seller unless I really wanted the item bad. He(or she) is basically saying that he isn't taking any responsibility once the item is shipped. IMO this is wrong and a poor attitude. What else does this seller not want to be responsible for? I would pass. PP should rule in your favor, but it's a screwed up deal if I have to go to PP for resolution.
Now if the seller is taking full responsibility , but chooses to self insure rather than buying the insurance, that is a different story.
 
I buy probably 90% more knives than what I sell.
I live in New Zealand, and we have basically two choices....

Choice #1, Air freight - so 1 x Knife ( Pocket Knife ) will cost around $15 to $20 NZ to send, This option will give me the Seller ( or gifter ) No Track and Trace and NO Insurance - its take it or leave it, and in saying that I have NEVER experienced a problem sending anything off from these shores to- hey wherever. This option takes around two weeks usually to get to target.

Choice #2, This choice is is called International Courier, and is a LOT dearer, the same pocket Knife will cost me between $50 to $60 NZ$, it is Track and Traced and Insured, and takes between ( so they say ) 4 to 6 working days.

Now me as a Buyer from the states- I have to pay usually US$25 to get a Knife here ( $40 nz - As you can see it really hurts me financially to buys knives with a very weak exchange rate- basically I pay twice as much as you guys do - and things are not half the price here in the way of living here in NZ, a normal NZ House will cost around $800,000.00, and that is NOT a flash house- you would be shocked! food is much dearer here, cost of living is much dearer, and we pay $2.20 a Litre for Gas - its a bit harsh) - I have no option but to pay this price for knives and the shipping of them- hey it's my choice!.

Now me as a Seller, when I am selling a Knife to anyone overseas, I give them these two choices ( the only choices I have ) - $10 or $20 ( U.S $ ) because I will wrap that box like no other my friends using about 5 times the amount of Sellotape completely sealing over the Addresses etc so nothing can get scratched and hopefully fairly well protected - not to mention completely anti-Rattle and firm inside the package.

If Im selling a nice Knife that commands lets say US$250? I basically insist the buyer pays the $20 US because I still have to pay an almost extra $20 ( NZ $ ) out of my own pocket on top of what they have already paid to make sure it's track and Traced, and Insured - if they choose this option I WANT them to pay me through Paypal Goods and Services so we are all happy and feel secure.
I will also send a very detailed choice of their two options, the paypal choices depending on what they choose, and the whole shi-bang on what information they will get with the shipped package - the Web site for tracking, the Track and Trace number, Photos of all documents and packaged and stickered parcel ready to go.

IF they choose the cheap Air frieight, @ $10 US with No track and Trace or insurance- what can I do? I wrap that box better than anyone, I take photos of receipts, the box with all its Air freight Stickers, Customs forms, I will ask them to pay me Friends and Family so they cannot have a go at me for loss. I have paid dearly for the Postal company to carry out their contractual side- YET...just try and get any money from them if they loose a parcel- if you do get anything? you may be lucky to get 1/4...way way way down the track - if ever.
So I feel 100% I am not responsible once I have taken the care to wrap that box so carefully, take photo's, send receipt photos, and then it's left my hands!
I will not accept a G&S payment for the uninsured & untraceable option- that tells me the buyer doesn't respect how much trouble I will go to for them - even though they would have received my normal "Shipping details and Choice" copy, and that buyer could make a claim and to be honest I wouldn't know if they got the knife or not, I cant do anything more than that- so I will not be held responsible for the cheaper option if lost /damaged.

If there are any problems at all or arguing- about the shipping price- deals off -I am not going to sell to that person.
 
Campbellclanman said:
I buy probably 90% more knives than what I sell.
I live in New Zealand, and we have basically two choices....

Choice #1, Air freight - so 1 x Knife ( Pocket Knife ) will cost around $15 to $20 NZ to send, This option will give me the Seller ( or gifter ) No Track and Trace and NO Insurance - its take it or leave it, and in saying that I have NEVER experienced a problem sending anything off from these shores to- hey wherever. This option takes around two weeks usually to get to target.

Choice #2, This choice is is called International Courier, and is a LOT dearer, the same pocket Knife will cost me between $50 to $60 NZ$, it is Track and Traced and Insured, and takes between ( so they say ) 4 to 6 working days.

Now me as a Buyer from the states- I have to pay usually US$25 to get a Knife here ( $40 nz - As you can see it really hurts me financially to buys knives with a very weak exchange rate- basically I pay twice as much as you guys do - and things are not half the price here in the way of living here in NZ, a normal NZ House will cost around $800,000.00, and that is NOT a flash house- you would be shocked! food is much dearer here, cost of living is much dearer, and we pay $2.20 a Litre for Gas - its a bit harsh) - I have no option but to pay this price for knives and the shipping of them- hey it's my choice!.

Now me as a Seller, when I am selling a Knife to anyone overseas, I give them these two choices ( the only choices I have ) - $10 or $20 ( U.S $ ) because I will wrap that box like no other my friends using about 5 times the amount of Sellotape completely sealing over the Addresses etc so nothing can get scratched and hopefully fairly well protected - not to mention completely anti-Rattle and firm inside the package.

If Im selling a nice Knife that commands lets say US$250? I basically insist the buyer pays the $20 US because I still have to pay an almost extra $20 ( NZ $ ) out of my own pocket on top of what they have already paid to make sure it's track and Traced, and Insured - if they choose this option I WANT them to pay me through Paypal Goods and Services so we are all happy and feel secure.
I will also send a very detailed choice of their two options, the paypal choices depending on what they choose, and the whole shi-bang on what information they will get with the shipped package - the Web site for tracking, the Track and Trace number, Photos of all documents and packaged and stickered parcel ready to go.

IF they choose the cheap Air frieight, @ $10 US with No track and Trace or insurance- what can I do? I wrap that box better than anyone, I take photos of receipts, the box with all its Air freight Stickers, Customs forms, I will ask them to pay me Friends and Family so they cannot have a go at me for loss. I have paid dearly for the Postal company to carry out their contractual side- YET...just try and get any money from them if they loose a parcel- if you do get anything? you may be lucky to get 1/4...way way way down the track - if ever.
So I feel 100% I am not responsible once I have taken the care to wrap that box so carefully, take photo's, send receipt photos, and then it's left my hands!
I will not accept a G&S payment for the uninsured & untraceable option- that tells me the buyer doesn't respect how much trouble I will go to for them - even though they would have received my normal "Shipping details and Choice" copy, and that buyer could make a claim and to be honest I wouldn't know if they got the knife or not, I cant do anything more than that- so I will not be held responsible for the cheaper option if lost /damaged.

If there are any problems at all or arguing- about the shipping price- deals off -I am not going to sell to that person.
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What a great write up, clearly written and the reasoning behind it as well. It’s nice to see what goes on and what you have to consider from NZ, or even just another country.

It’s not at all like it was in the old days, bullet proof packaging is now required on just about every package that is being shipped or posted to ensure the condition of the item. People outside the trade really haven’t any idea all the possibilities and damage potential that a package is exposed to in the shipping process.

Thank you for sharing your perspective and the level of care you provide.
 
If you want their item order it, if it goes missing PP will back you and the seller will have no recourse to get their money back after cheaping out in the first place.
 
Thank you UPS :thumbsup:

Paypal will only pay out when the Goods and services option is used - and notifies you this so when making payments.

Friends and Family option- Paypal will not and can not take money back from the seller.

If the customer "cheaps out" on me and chooses non insured and non traceable - he is not going to be paying me through goods and services and this is always made clear, as I have explained above.
 
Campbellclanman said:
I buy probably 90% more knives than what I sell.
I live in New Zealand, and we have basically two choices....

Choice #1, Air freight - so 1 x Knife ( Pocket Knife ) will cost around $15 to $20 NZ to send, This option will give me the Seller ( or gifter ) No Track and Trace and NO Insurance - its take it or leave it, and in saying that I have NEVER experienced a problem sending anything off from these shores to- hey wherever. This option takes around two weeks usually to get to target.

Choice #2, This choice is is called International Courier, and is a LOT dearer, the same pocket Knife will cost me between $50 to $60 NZ$, it is Track and Traced and Insured, and takes between ( so they say ) 4 to 6 working days.

Now me as a Buyer from the states- I have to pay usually US$25 to get a Knife here ( $40 nz - As you can see it really hurts me financially to buys knives with a very weak exchange rate- basically I pay twice as much as you guys do - and things are not half the price here in the way of living here in NZ, a normal NZ House will cost around $800,000.00, and that is NOT a flash house- you would be shocked! food is much dearer here, cost of living is much dearer, and we pay $2.20 a Litre for Gas - its a bit harsh) - I have no option but to pay this price for knives and the shipping of them- hey it's my choice!.

Now me as a Seller, when I am selling a Knife to anyone overseas, I give them these two choices ( the only choices I have ) - $10 or $20 ( U.S $ ) because I will wrap that box like no other my friends using about 5 times the amount of Sellotape completely sealing over the Addresses etc so nothing can get scratched and hopefully fairly well protected - not to mention completely anti-Rattle and firm inside the package.

If Im selling a nice Knife that commands lets say US$250? I basically insist the buyer pays the $20 US because I still have to pay an almost extra $20 ( NZ $ ) out of my own pocket on top of what they have already paid to make sure it's track and Traced, and Insured - if they choose this option I WANT them to pay me through Paypal Goods and Services so we are all happy and feel secure.
I will also send a very detailed choice of their two options, the paypal choices depending on what they choose, and the whole shi-bang on what information they will get with the shipped package - the Web site for tracking, the Track and Trace number, Photos of all documents and packaged and stickered parcel ready to go.

IF they choose the cheap Air frieight, @ $10 US with No track and Trace or insurance- what can I do? I wrap that box better than anyone, I take photos of receipts, the box with all its Air freight Stickers, Customs forms, I will ask them to pay me Friends and Family so they cannot have a go at me for loss. I have paid dearly for the Postal company to carry out their contractual side- YET...just try and get any money from them if they loose a parcel- if you do get anything? you may be lucky to get 1/4...way way way down the track - if ever.
So I feel 100% I am not responsible once I have taken the care to wrap that box so carefully, take photo's, send receipt photos, and then it's left my hands!
I will not accept a G&S payment for the uninsured & untraceable option- that tells me the buyer doesn't respect how much trouble I will go to for them - even though they would have received my normal "Shipping details and Choice" copy, and that buyer could make a claim and to be honest I wouldn't know if they got the knife or not, I cant do anything more than that- so I will not be held responsible for the cheaper option if lost /damaged.

If there are any problems at all or arguing- about the shipping price- deals off -I am not going to sell to that person.
Click to expand...

I'm a big believer in international shipping being a case-by-case issue. Sometimes the costs and risks can get disproportionate - I had someone offer to buy a knife I have on sale for $650, and he was willing to send me a UPS shipping label and wanted the customs declaration labeled "Gardening Tools" and take full responsibility for customs risk and all kinds of other things. It was just so... complicated. I don't think I'd ship internationally and accept the same shipper responsibility that I routinely do stateside.
 
Campbellclanman said:
Thank you UPS :thumbsup:

Paypal will only pay out when the Goods and services option is used - and notifies you this so when making payments.

Friends and Family option- Paypal will not and can not take money back from the seller.

If the customer "cheaps out" on me and chooses non insured and non traceable - he is not going to be paying me through goods and services and this is always made clear, as I have explained above.
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My answer was to the initial poster.. I ASSUMED the seller wasn't cheating Paypal by using F&F..

The Seller has an obligation to make sure the buyer receives what was bought, if the buyer doesn't receive the product the onus to make it right is on the seller. Period.
 
I knew your post was to the op, assuming cheating because if F& F ?
There may be reasons such as I have pointed out - but there is no way I am paying F&F if I have paid for a decent shipping option that offers safety.

As a seller here in NZ with the two choices of shipping- one of them being the cheaper option with no way if tracking it telling that the buyer had received the item - and if they are paying good and services - it is a massive risk for me as a seller.

I disagree 100% and always have even as a buyer - if I decide to choose a cheaper shipping option - it’s actually on me because of my choice. If there is a option which offers safety guide lines and insurance, tracking etc and I turn it down and choose the cheaper way?
You still want me to put everything on the Seller ????? Really? Are you serious?

I buy 90% more knives than the number I sell so I am a buyer not a full time Seller- and never would I want anyone upset- so when I sell it goes the way I want to sell- everyone has always accepted the terms the communication of the shipping details are sent before the buyer sends money/ and to date it’s been perfect for both parties- in fact my feedback shows little of the actual number because Im not the one who asks for feedback to be placed - so people don’t often do it - nor do I unless asked.

As a seller The sale is not going ahead if I sell you a $600 Knife and you skimp on a cheap option in shipping.
I would ship the knife if it was a cheap one - if lost - your not getting your money back - period! you chose the cheap way- and had the risks explained before the completion the deal and paying F$F means you can’t claim.

Expensive knife? and the buyer wants to choose the cheap shipping with no insurance or tracking protection and yet wants to pay G&S through PayPal so he can claim his money back - it’s not going to happen - Period.
 
how many times can the same subject come up ???

a seller can say "at your expense" or after I drop it off "I am not responsible for lost packages" ... well say what you will but it IS the sellers responsibility to make sure the buyers item gets to the buyer ... and at the seller's risk to ship without insurance ...

and as pointed out already ... as the sale rules state ... buyers aren't paying for insurance ... it protects the seller ...

and unless you are silly enough to pay with F&F then a buyer has protection.
 
Me as a buyer pays for insurance that is included with track and trace every time I buy a knife from the states -it costs me usually $20 to $25.
So automatically in that expense of the shipping the seller has included insurance.

As a seller I can easily wipe the cheaper option and just charge them the option of paying $20 US ( which I have to pay as well receiving a knife from the states all the time ) this option has tracking, insurance etc and when a buyer chooses this option I ALWAYS get the buyer to pay through Goods and Services where he or she are protected.

Of course I am going to protect myself as a Seller if someone buys a rare knife off me- for say $500, but only want to pay as little as possible on a shipping option that gives not me nor the buyer any protection - and yet still want to pay through a method where they can claim money back - and quite possibly have that knife in their pocket - how would I know? and how many time have we seen that complaint - from the seller who are good people?
So yes I protect myself by not selling a knife that person

So its not as cut and dry by you simply saying- "Thats it- seller has to ensure it arrives!! I do that by using a shipping option from New Zealand that has insurance and tracking just like every knife I buy from the States.
If you think I am of dubious character your wrong, I would never dream of ripping someone off for a few bucks - thats just not my style, but I am not going to expose myself to have this done to me, and not one sale have I ever had a complaint or unhappiness by very very long term Bladeforum people.
 
Campbellclanman said:
Me as a buyer pays for insurance that is included with track and trace every time I buy a knife from the states -it costs me usually $20 to $25.
So automatically in that expense of the shipping the seller has included insurance.

As a seller I can easily wipe the cheaper option and just charge them the option of paying $20 US ( which I have to pay as well receiving a knife from the states all the time ) this option has tracking, insurance etc and when a buyer chooses this option I ALWAYS get the buyer to pay through Goods and Services where he or she are protected.

Of course I am going to protect myself as a Seller if someone buys a rare knife off me- for say $500, but only want to pay as little as possible on a shipping option that gives not me nor the buyer any protection - and yet still want to pay through a method where they can claim money back - and quite possibly have that knife in their pocket - how would I know? and how many time have we seen that complaint - from the seller who are good people?
So yes I protect myself by not selling a knife that person

So its not as cut and dry by you simply saying- "Thats it- seller has to ensure it arrives!! I do that by using a shipping option from New Zealand that has insurance and tracking just like every knife I buy from the States.
If you think I am of dubious character your wrong, I would never dream of ripping someone off for a few bucks - thats just not my style, but I am not going to expose myself to have this done to me, and not one sale have I ever had a complaint or unhappiness by very very long term Bladeforum people.
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The proper way to do it would be to only mail by the better method and use G&S. You are the seller and you get to pick the shipping method. This is one of the reasons that the seller is responsible until delivery-the way it is packed and shipped are his choices. In the end it is the better choice for both parties and you won't be stiffing PP and the transaction will be covered if their is a loss.
 
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I add full insurance for FREE on any knife. Doesn't matter if it's a PM2 or a Sebenza. I do it so both the buyer and I are protected. Peace of mind for a few $$.
 
I provide shipping and insurance for every knife ... and if it gets to be an expensive knife I let the buyer know it will only ship with a signature required ...

if they don't want that or can't be bothered to contact their post office to have the package held safely for them to pick up if they can't be home to sign ... then sometimes I have to pass some buyers ... but it is my extra protection ...
 
The suggestion I am ripping people off is actually quite offending- so choose your words a lot more carefully.
So - what you are saying that if there was an option of shipping where you sold a very expensive knife to a buyer who then wanted to pay through G& S so he could claim the money back - you had no way in knowing that the knife was delivered or not no insurance etc you would hand back the money with no way of getting your money back from the shipping company? Uhuh- yeah ok I’m sure you would.
but you won’t because you would choose better shipping options.

If you look at what I have said I always try to steer people in the way of paying G & S because they are protected- so now I will certainly take Peter Hartwigs advice and offer them the one only shipping option. Which is what I have always pressed people to do and be protected. I always just wanted them to know that there was a cheaper option available.
Through this shipping method there is insurance, tracking and they will pay for that because it’s all inclusive - and that’s the only choice that will be given- because remember here in New Zealand we have very few options - and it equates to being around the same price I have to pay from the States.

So now that this shipping option has insurance included the buyer will pay through G& S PayPal like I have always pressed them to do, this doesn’t sound like a rip off to me.


I agree 100% with jjcolts views above
 
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