Insurance at the buyer’s expense

Campbellclanman said:
The suggestion I am ripping people off is actually quite offending- so choose your words a lot more carefully.
So - what you are saying that if there was an option of shipping where you sold a very expensive knife to a buyer who then wanted to pay through G& S so he could claim the money back - you had no way in knowing that the knife was delivered or not no insurance etc you would hand back the money with no way of getting your money back from the shipping company? Uhuh- yeah ok I’m sure you would.
but you won’t because you would choose better shipping options.

If you look at what I have said I always try to steer people in the way of paying G & S because they are protected- so now I will certainly take Peter Hartwigs advice and offer them the one only shipping option. Which is what I have always pressed people to do and be protected. I always just wanted them to know that there was a cheaper option available.
Through this shipping method there is insurance, tracking and they will pay for that because it’s all inclusive - and that’s the only choice that will be given- because remember here in New Zealand we have very few options - and it equates to being around the same price I have to pay from the States.

So now that this shipping option has insurance included the buyer will pay through G& S PayPal like I have always pressed them to do, this doesn’t sound like a rip off to me.


I agree 100% with jjcolts views above
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You are in fact ripping off PayPal if you are using their service in a way you agreed not to.

This is a basic fact.

As a seller, you are responsible to get the item to the buyer. If you don't think you can do that without significant risk of loss or no recourse, you shouldn't be selling, international or otherwise.
 
craytab said:
You are in fact ripping off PayPal if you are using their service in a way you agreed not to.

This is a basic fact.

As a seller, you are responsible to get the item to the buyer. If you don't think you can do that without significant risk of loss or no recourse, you shouldn't be selling, international or otherwise.
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I think he's saying that he has done deals internationally where buyer and seller have agreed ahead of time on who has what responsibility and risk. In my book, as long as that's true and everyone is crystal clear about it, that's fine. Some people internationally want to buy knives, like in Canada, where there is a somewhat arbitrary customs process that sometimes lets knives in and sometimes confiscates or returns them. As a seller, I would not be comfortable taking responsibility for an international shipment where my sale may or may not be subject to the vagaries of the destination country's customs enforcement and law. I'd only be willing to ship knives internationally if the buyer took the responsibility for customs issues in their country.

JJ_Colt45 said:
I provide shipping and insurance for every knife ... and if it gets to be an expensive knife I let the buyer know it will only ship with a signature required ...

if they don't want that or can't be bothered to contact their post office to have the package held safely for them to pick up if they can't be home to sign ... then sometimes I have to pass some buyers ... but it is my extra protection ...
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I've started doing signature on delivery every single knife I sell. Well worth the extra $2.60.
 
Thank you madcap magician! Your first two sentences describe EXACTLY what I am saying and what I do!:thumbsup:

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying - we discuss the shipping before any money changes hands - we both agree as to what the risks and challenges hold for both of us as a buyer and seller.

How on earth can I be ripping off Paypal, craytab you to get a grip on reality and get your facts right by telling people they are rip-offs and shouldn't be selling:rolleyes:

Both the buyer and seller are 100% happy with what we have previously discussed, Paypal gets their fees whether you pay Good and Services OR friends and Family , so please let me help you here as you simply are not understanding.

1, Goods and services - as a Buyer you don't pay the fees- the seller gets them deducted from the total amount paid = Happy Paypal- everything is totally legal and binding to all contractual agreements. Paypal got their Money = No Rip off here!:) :thumbsup:

2, Because, we as two very happy people, one being me as a Seller in this case, the other being the Buyer, and we have both agreed on using Friends and Family payment in PayPal ( which may surprise you but you can legally use this option - that's why Paypal have it as an option ;) ) .
It's then when the person pays Friends and Family - its the person PAYING the money who gets charged the Paypal fees = Paypal being very happy because they got their money = Happy Paypal because they got their fees, everything is legally binding here = No rip off :thumbsup:

So before the buyer pays me - I say to him or her " Hey you are going to get hit for fees when paying this using F & F - so lets take of that amount off the Knife for you so you don't loose out" No- No rip off to the customer here either!


So where? Just where on Earth am I Ripping off Paypal? Paypal have got all their Fees- either way of choice, F & F or G & S! Paypal also make more money on top of this with using their own exchange rate which gives them just a little extra on top of their Fees they have already charged, this Paypal have made all this money from two mutually happy people who have agreed to use a choice of payment that Paypal has provided- totally everything is 100% above Board and totally legal.

So again you use the word Ripping off after I asked you to think about it before calling some one out like that - obviously you are not that type of person who has the ability to disagree without putting just a little bit of KeyBoard warrior into it.

Please get your facts right craytab and explain just how I am ripping off Paypal - instead of just saying it, please explain just how I am illegally ripping off Paypal? I am really interested in hearing your intellectual thoughts or theories on this, and if I find I am doing something wrong I can amend this.
 
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PayPal does not charge fees to me when I send friends money via F&F...maybe it's different for you. So if I were to send you payment via F&F for a purchase PayPal would indeed be getting stiffed out of their fees...in addition to being a violation of the terms of service.
 
I can see that view if that's the case with you guys in the USA - that may be so- In all I have indeed sold probably two through Friends and Family as I often refuse to do a deal without the G & S as I usually sell knives that are relatively dear ( imo ), the cheaper option was there if ever the case for the case of a Knife under $100, and have done that through f&f as said.

When I pay here f&f I pay a fee in NZ, I will be contacting them and asking why this is.

But after all this carry on what I have picked up is - that I will only offer the one shipping option and ignore the cheaper one.

I actually hate the back and forth business in threads, but do not like being called a rip off when I have constantly gifted Knives, Sold expensive knives for Charities - and I think I have a good reputation in the Traditionals where I hang out, so its a matter of respect I guess - some people beg to differ.
I also contribute to extra costs out of my own pocket as I am embarrassed of the high costs here in NZ.
 
Campbellclanman said:
Thank you madcap magician! Your first two sentences describe EXACTLY what I am saying and what I do!:thumbsup:

Yes that is EXACTLY what I am saying - we discuss the shipping before any money changes hands - we both agree as to what the risks and challenges hold for both of us as a buyer and seller.

How on earth can I be ripping off Paypal, craytab you to get a grip on reality and get your facts right by telling people they are rip-offs and shouldn't be selling:rolleyes:

Both the buyer and seller are 100% happy with what we have previously discussed, Paypal gets their fees whether you pay Good and Services OR friends and Family , so please let me help you here as you simply are not understanding.

1, Goods and services - as a Buyer you don't pay the fees- the seller gets them deducted from the total amount paid = Happy Paypal- everything is totally legal and binding to all contractual agreements. Paypal got their Money = No Rip off here!:) :thumbsup:

2, Because, we as two very happy people, one being me as a Seller in this case, the other being the Buyer, and we have both agreed on using Friends and Family payment in PayPal ( which may surprise you but you can legally use this option - that's why Paypal have it as an option ;) ) .
It's then when the person pays Friends and Family - its the person PAYING the money who gets charged the Paypal fees = Paypal being very happy because they got their money = Happy Paypal because they got their fees, everything is legally binding here = No rip off :thumbsup:

So before the buyer pays me - I say to him or her " Hey you are going to get hit for fees when paying this using F & F - so lets take of that amount off the Knife for you so you don't loose out" No- No rip off to the customer here either!


So where? Just where on Earth am I Ripping off Paypal? Paypal have got all their Fees- either way of choice, F & F or G & S! Paypal also make more money on top of this with using their own exchange rate which gives them just a little extra on top of their Fees they have already charged, this Paypal have made all this money from two mutually happy people who have agreed to use a choice of payment that Paypal has provided- totally everything is 100% above Board and totally legal.

So again you use the word Ripping off after I asked you to think about it before calling some one out like that - obviously you are not that type of person who has the ability to disagree without putting just a little bit of KeyBoard warrior into it.

Please get your facts right craytab and explain just how I am ripping off Paypal - instead of just saying it, please explain just how I am illegally ripping off Paypal? I am really interested in hearing your intellectual thoughts or theories on this, and if I find I am doing something wrong I can amend this.
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It appears that the international fees for using PayPal vary wildly depending on several things including type of payment (g&s vs f&f), where the money comes from (balance, cc, etc), and countries involved.

However, at the end of the day, I don't think PayPal is getting their fair cut, one in which you agreed to give them by using their service, when you use F&F for a goods and services transaction. Justify it however you want, but using F&F for a goods transaction is dishonest and ripping off PayPal of what you agreed to pay them for their service. Not to mention all the problems that arise from using F&F when you should be using goods.

As for both parties knowing the onus is on the buyer, I understand that. But you can still have that agreement with the buyer and use goods and service. There is no need to use F&F unless you so much distrust the buyer that you don't think they will follow through with the agreement. In that case, the answer is still not to use F&F, it's to not do the transaction.

This is really really simple. F&F is for sending money to friends and family with no expectation of goods in return.
 
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Campbellclanman said:
I disagree 100% and always have even as a buyer - if I decide to choose a cheaper shipping option - it’s actually on me because of my choice. If there is a option which offers safety guide lines and insurance, tracking etc and I turn it down and choose the cheaper way?
You still want me to put everything on the Seller ????? Really? Are you serious?
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With respect Duncan this thread is mostly about CONUS sales. International sales are another whole ball of wax. Don't get to riled up mate, save that for when we beat you in the RWC finals!!:D

All of us Internationals with long histories of buying and shipping internationally know and understand the risks and problems associated with it. It's not cut and dried and it's made more complicated when big Dollar numbers are involved with shipping to strange places where no one speaks English and there is no tracking.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with an international sellers protecting themselves to a greater degree. I expect it which is why I no longer have anything shipped directly to me, I use a US address.

Also for what its worth many international F&F transactions attract fees. I know I pay them every time I send money this way.

All the best:)
 
tl:dr yup for seller/sender, even regardless of social mores they're the one that has to file the claim so ipso facto it's on them by default, it's easy to misconstrue though imo and argue that it ought to be on the buyer/receiver.
 
GotSteel said:
tl:dr yup for seller/sender, even regardless of social mores they're the one that has to file the claim so ipso facto it's on them by default, it's easy to misconstrue though imo and argue that it ought to be on the buyer/receiver.[/QUOTE

Totally irrelevant to the PP F&F discussion :)
I believe we have wandered
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OilMan said:
Although, PayPal doesn't have to do anything since you broke the rules if you are paying friends and family for merchandise. Some people just get lucky and PayPal is feeling nice that day.
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In that thread, Paypal took care of the people who used G&S, but did nothing for those who accepted F&F from the scammer.
 
That was funny steven65! Yes this is going to be interesting and tough I think no matter what it’s going to be an outstanding finish!

PayPal themselves state that your are protected using Goods and Services, and not so using friends and family- you are not protected against scammers.

All interesting points but Steve is totally correct and I have complicated by bringing in International shipping into a Conus shipping talk.
 
Campbellclanman said:
All interesting points but Steve is totally correct and I have complicated by bringing in International shipping into a Conus shipping talk.
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You and Steve have not complicated anything at all, in fact you have added to and enlightened us of, the additional steps/procedures/exchange rates/time/additional expense/fees/etc... that is involved outside of the States. Too often we here simply take for granted what is an extra everyday burden for you guys compared to us here in the States. Thanks for sharing and giving us a view into your side of world.
 
IME, some "fees" outside US are due to currency conversion, and are added on top of the normal G&S fee.

I can sell to someone I think is in the US, has a US shipping address, and if their PayPal account is registered outside the US, I pay more in fees. This is with goods and services. Maybe they do this with F&F? Add a currency conversion fee?
 
annr said:
IME, some "fees" outside US are due to currency conversion, and are added on top of the normal G&S fee.

I can sell to someone I think is in the US, has a US shipping address, and if their PayPal account is registered outside the US, I pay more in fees. This is with goods and services. Maybe they do this with F&F? Add a currency conversion fee?
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Not really... The answer is pretty simple, just google the PP fees for the Country you're interested in. Here's an example for Canada - for F&F:

upload_2019-10-18_22-59-56.png
 
BellaBlades said:
I add full insurance for FREE on any knife. Doesn't matter if it's a PM2 or a Sebenza. I do it so both the buyer and I are protected. Peace of mind for a few $$.
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I have always paid and sold with PayPal G&S. I've always shipped insured at the sales price.

It's ridiculous not to do it that way. It's been 3 years since I sold a knife, but that was always my requirements. I've always hated doing the stupid net to me math, total turnoff.

A lot of people don't wanna deal with the conversion fees and only ship CONUS.

I don't like the whole signature required thing, when I worked I would never be able to to be home for it or have time to pick up the package at the post office.

It was always a hassle to have them hold it til the weekend.
 
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K.O.D. said:
I have always paid and sold with PayPal G&S. I've always shipped insured at the sales price.

It's ridiculous not to do it that way. It's been 3 years since I sold a knife, but that was always my requirements. I've always hated doing the stupid net to me math, total turnoff.

A lot of people don't wanna deal with the conversion fees and only ship CONUS.

I don't like the whole signature required thing, when I worked I would never be able to to be home for it or have time to pick up the package at the post office.

It was always a hassle to have them hold it til the weekend.
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Exactly I totally agree with you. I also have to admit I can't stand signature required because if I'm working a day shift I'm usually working past post office hours.
 
Just so you guys can see what happens when I pay Friends and Family here in New Zealand.

My good Friend Paul - I sent him some money for a trip we have coming up, like I tried to tell you guys in the previous comments that using Friends and Family does not rip off Paypal- as you can see they took 5%, I sent him US$320.00, my total bill came to $335.42, which is the same percentage as G&S, hence me being slightly offended when people called me a rip off when I have never done so for using friends and Family, you guys may not get charged a fee using this- but it seems we do here in NZ.
Please see below...
COPY OF TRANSACTION PAGE:

Summary
12 November 2019
Paul Hilborn
-negative $335.42
Payment sent
Repeat this transaction
Paid with
VISA Credit Card x-( deleted for this post )
You'll see "PAYPAL *PAULHILBORN" on your card statement.
Exchange rate
$552.57 NZD = $335.42 USD
1 NZD = 0.607 USD
Transaction ID
7SX09905MM999315G
Sent to
Paul Hilborn
( Pauls email deleted for this post )
Note
Thank you my friend
Details
Sent to Paul Hilborn
$320.00
Fee
$15.42
Total
$335.42


Print details
 
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