Intended Use of a Tactical Folding Knife!

Originally posted by komondor
It is definitely over-confidence. I am very over confident in a situation like that. I would not be nearly that confident if the assailant has a knife. That is just a matter of opinion to me.
But in the stick situation, I KNOW I will come out on top. If it just so happens that I don't, then that is that; but I go into knowing I can't lose.
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Underestimating an opponent by default is not strategy.
 
No, no, no. I'm not trying to be nasty. I would just hate to see anyone adopt a mindset that involves underestimating an opponent in this way.

In one of my first aikido classes, the instructor paired me with a little girl who couldn't have been more than 14 or 15. Now, I'm no martial arts newbie; I had already done karate for years and spent some time moonlighting in kung fu at that point. Feeling smug, I kindly "permitted" her to show me the technique the class was practicing that night.

She smiled sweetly, took hold of my wrist and upper forearm...
...and suddenly I was on my knees, and she was smiling down at me.

Never go into an altercation telling yourself, "I'm going to take this guy -- he's nothing." This will blind you to the potential danger represented by any opponent. The results could be a lot worse than simply saying, "Gosh, I guess he took me."

I'm not being nasty -- I'm just trying to be helpful.
 
Originally posted by Razoredj


Underestimating an opponent by default is not strategy.
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I firmly believe that the "underestimating" thing is very overrated in real life, spontaneous fighting.
The reality of a confrontation like the one of the video clip demands that you are in a fight or flight situation. Your adrenaline is running, and you are in total focus.

But to be confident, and to show that confidence is a huge advantage.
The majority of attacks on an individual are not going to be by trained ninjas or syndicate hit men. They are going to be everday thugs who just want your wallet, and do not want a fight.
 
Fair enough razor! I forgot to add the ;) . It is difficult to express emotion or subtlety on the net. Your style is very remenisant of my days as the debating society captain at Bangor Uni! Lets not get me started on Politics or gun and knife control or freedoms. Please?:confused:
 
And confidence is fine. Over-confidence will leave you with blind spots. For instance, being over-confident could lead you to take on an opponent when you really should and can run away.

Be confident, but not proud; be cautious, but never cowardly.
 
Originally posted by The General
Your style is very remenisant of my days as the debating society captain at Bangor Uni!
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Oddly, I was never on the debate team in high school or college, but in retrospect, I probably could have been.
 
komondor, you underestimate the skill of an oponent you get killed or seriously hurt. In a life or death fight NEVER asume your oponent is some thick poorly trained grunt. He might not give you a chance to regret the situation. Myself if a person had a knife gun or stick and wanted the cash in the till, let him have the cash! Is your life going to mean squat for the company you work for? I doubt it. Now if he wants a piece of you then give it all you got.

A coward is a person who is too frightened to fight back when there is NO OTHER option.

A friend of mine was mugged in Scotland. The mugger had a knife and my friend had a much bigger and better knife. He handed over the wallet as money can be replaced and a life cannot. He never used his knife and ran away. He was a brave man in my eyes. I carry a knife, but I pray I won't ever have to use it to harm another. That does not stop me practicing or thinking about my suroundings, but if I ever use the knife it will not be shown until it has been used. If a person want to show off with a blade he is a fool. Never tip your hand or show what you got unless you WILL use it. If you have more than one knife, I suppose its ok to flash that knife, but you meet force with force you get an escalation of threat and danger. I don't know what the answer is as different situations happen differently. All I know is it is a last reaort for me. YMMV.
 
Originally posted by The General
komondor, you underestimate the skill of an oponent you get killed or seriously hurt. In a life or death fight NEVER asume your oponent is some thick poorly trained grunt.
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So what do you assume? That the scruffed-face scumbag walking into my store is actually a trained ninja? I take it for what he is, or what he may appear to be.
I guess a point I am trying to make is, How can I underestimate someone, if I have no idea who that person really is? To not underestimate is to assume the person you are about to fight is the deadliest figher in the world. If that is the case, why would I ever fight him under any condition?

There is a certain degree of risk with any confrontation. No one knows what is going to happen, how the altercation will unfold. I believe it is fair to say one can be confident, very confident, without underestimating an opponent, if "underestimating" is an actual concept. And to be over-confident perhaps means when after you got your a** kicked, you think in retrospect, I was too careless. Well, I believe it is likely you would have been trashed no matter what your attitude is. Being supremely confident in a street brawl, or any spontaneous self-defense situation is only going to help your cause. Most muggers, robbers, do not want to fight. Perhaps most of them do not even know how to fight. They just want money for their sleazy habit.
And in a road rage type situation. Both parties are usually pretty hyped-up and pumped to go. There is no underestimating there, no sizing up. Just do or die, win or lose. Stay focused and be confident. And always be cocky.
 
This is a weird thread.

First, we have a short film of a guy with a knife facing a guy with a stick. At some point, the guy with the knife grossly telegraphs the fact that he's about to lunge with his knife. He does, and the guy with the stick very accurately whacks the knife from the aggressor's hand. This was supposed to prove something about locks? Maybe I need to go back and do it again, but I ran it several times in slow motion, and it appeared to me that the stick struck the knife directly, dislodging it from the knife man's hand. IMO, the stick was travelling so fast, and the knife abruptly assumed a nearly equal speed as it left the guy's hand. Is it being suggested that some knives would have remained and cut the knife person's hand before they took off? I don't think that is very realistic. It appeared to me that the stick hit the side of the knife/blade, not that it came down on the spine of the blade.

Then we come to an assertion that the knife man has the great advantage over the man with the stick. Many rush in to suggest otherwise. I concur with them. Maybe a real quick, experienced fighter can use his knife in a counter measure/strike when the man with the stick acts aggressively. But most of the time, the man with the stick is going to make hash of the knife man. Especially if the stick man has any training in escrima.

Komondor -- one of the highly regarded "stick men" of the martial arts world was Angel Cabales (sp?) Mr. Cabales was maybe 5'4" tall, and thin. From what I understand of him in his prime, I would expect most top-ranking martial artists without weapons, and many with hand weapons to have lost any fight to Cabales. He is reputed to have killed 35 men with his stick. Singular. He hardly ever used two, tho he had the skills to do so. Or, he could use one stick and a knife, or 2 knives, or go barehanded. Someone who had studied under a good escrima master for some time and practiced hard, would knock you absolutely silly with your stick, while you were trying to put your game face on. I tend to think that anyone who would choose to use a stick as a weapon probably has been trained in its use, and understands very well what can be accomplished with it. I've seen a couple film bits of escrimadors "demonstrating" with their sticks. Seriously, they can hit a person several times per second, from the top of one's head to down near the knees. You might have all the confidence in the world, but it would be based upon false assumptions, which would render it totally useless. Very much like the house built on sand.

Having said all that, am still not sure where this thread is going. Or, maybe it is over. I dunno. If a guy with a stick is quick enough and accurate enough to slap your knife out of your hand, does it really make any difference what lock that knife had? Most of us realize that a folding knife is simply no match for a stick.
 
Originally posted by Razoredj
I can't help but think that such an attitude would cloud one's judgment.
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Not any more than the frilly "collar" on one of them running lizards from Australia. I still laugh my a** off whenever I see clips of one of those things. Hilarious. But it is terrifying to the would-be predator. It screams, "Here I am, motherf***er, come and get me."

Not any more than any creature which becomes brighter in color during the stress of predatory conflict.

Not any more than the flair of a cobra.
 
Originally posted by Bugs3x
Komondor -- one of the highly regarded "stick men" of the martial arts world was Angel Cabales (sp?) Mr. Cabales was maybe 5'4" tall, and thin. From what I understand of him in his prime, I would expect most top-ranking martial artists without weapons, and many with hand weapons to have lost any fight to Cabales. He is reputed to have killed 35 men with his stick. Singular. He hardly ever used two, tho he had the skills to do so. Or, he could use one stick and a knife, or 2 knives, or go barehanded. Someone who had studied under a good escrima master for some time and practiced hard, would knock you absolutely silly with your stick, while you were trying to put your game face on. I tend to think that anyone who would choose to use a stick as a weapon probably has been trained in its use, and understands very well what can be accomplished with it. I've seen a couple film bits of escrimadors "demonstrating" with their sticks. Seriously, they can hit a person several times per second, from the top of one's head to down near the knees. You might have all the confidence in the world, but it would be based upon false assumptions, which would render it totally useless. Very much like the house built on sand.
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Yeah right. Next time I am attacked by a punk with a stick, I will be thinking he is trained is escrima. Gimme a break. Why does everyone on this thread assume every goon carrying a freaking whippy little stick, or bat, or hiking stick, or polycarboante baton is a trained martial artist or something. Come on people, let's be logical.

I am talking about a spontaneous altercation between two parties. A street fight, a burglary, a simple disagreement gone horribly awry.

This fact can NEVER be altered: I would be seriously scared if a stranger approached me with a knife and bad intentions. If that same goon approached me with a stick, I would laugh. If there is a .002% chance he is an expert in escrima, there is a 5% chance he is an expert with a knife, which is in his back pocket. Or a 12% chance he has a gun. So what.

The simple fact remains, has known by all, but pointed out by the General, that any amateur becomes lethal with a knife in hand. The same WILL NEVER be said for a freakin stick. I don't care what kind of reach advantage the stick has over a 4" blade. Big deal. I will take a few blows from a stick than a few strikes from a blade...ANY DAY. Edged weapons exsanguinate, blunt weapons only cause blunt trauma.
 
I think this movie shows a few things. First, if your folder gets hit or your hand, you will likely be de-fanged. But, it alo shows not to do a thrust with a folder from that far away! I mean, sheesh! If I was folder guy, I'd be digging in my pocket for some change to throw in order to help me close the gap. You have to cause some kind of distraction or pain before closing the gap.

Cool video Steve!
 
Another thought.

Humans, in many forms of combat, try to emulate the ANIMAL.
Swiftness, stealth, killer instinct, ......and pure blade weaponry mimicking claws and fangs. In fact, Bruce Lee, the greatest martial artist of all time, evolved his early Shaolin teachings into eventually his own form. A form of martial arts based on different animal characteristics. In fact, when he auditioned for the role of Kato in 1963, he is seen on tape displaying his crane, and his tiger.

With very, very few exceptions, (notably the mantis shrimp and kangaroo) the animal kingdon DOES NOT rely on blunt object trauma in their defenses. Most rely on claws and fags, especially mammals like us. Some use poison, some use camouflage.
 
Two comments...

1. I think that several people have misunderstood the original context of the video clip. The entire purpose of the clip is to demonstrate the speed and safety of the flexible training sticks sold on the EKI website. It is not intended as a "how to" video. BTW, the gentleman on the right is Ernie Emerson.

2. Komondor,
I hope you never have reason to be disabused of your misconceptions.
You appear to be incapable of learning the easy way, and the hard way is expensive indeed.
 
The scenario really isn't concrete enough to withstand a lot of nit picking. The bare truuuuuth is that with knife and stick combat, the weapons clash frequently, whatever your initial strategy might be. When you fight with a blunt weapon against another person with a non-projectile weapon of any kind, your primary target is his weapon hand and the weapon itself(particularly if it is a folding knife). Inevitably, you hit weapon to weapon, sooner or later. You might be thrusting, you might be cutting, you might be just trying to get out of the way. In real time, the weapons go everywhere. Don't try to over analyze the video. I only posted it to show that somebody else was thinking about knife against stick combat.

I've taken hits on the hand and weapon, and was able to retain the weapon, I've taken hits on the weapon so hard that my thumb was practically dislocated. You don't want to add a collapsing knife blade into that mix. That's what the stick test, a.k.a. the spine whack test, is all about.

A solid stick is just as deadly as a knife. Here in Kalifornia where sticks are outlawed, only outlaws carry sticks, while the rest of us are limited to folding knives for concealed carry.
 
Originally posted by The General
A friend of mine was mugged in Scotland. The mugger had a knife and my friend had a much bigger and better knife. He handed over the wallet as money can be replaced and a life cannot. He never used his knife and ran away. He was a brave man in my eyes. I carry a knife, but I pray I won't ever have to use it to harm another. That does not stop me practicing or thinking about my suroundings, but if I ever use the knife it will not be shown until it has been used. If a person want to show off with a blade he is a fool.
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General, you and I agree. I hope I would do the same as your friend and then go seek out a trainer to re-enact the scenario and disabuse me of the feelings of being a wimp and bring me back to the reality that the alternatives were far worse, even if I'd won.

I know I'm a dumb enough jackass to misread a situation when I'm trying to keep from pissing my pants. Look, I may be 5'4", four-eyed, fat, and fifty, but I once put 4 of 6 rounds from a snubby into a gallon jug at a hundred yards standing unsupported. If he misjudges me so badly as to attack me, after taking his time and coolly calculating the odds, who's to say I won't also?

Steve Harvey, I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but what do you mean "sticks" are illegal in Kalifornia? Does that include the extended two cell mini-mag lites?
 
Rusty, well said! Myself I call that daft 'have to stand up whatever the situ' pride. Pride commeth before the fall.:eek:

Now if my life was on the line or my friends or family I would gladly sell my life if requred for family and probably for friends. I can't think of a better way to go than defending your own or families life/lives. Money is never worth dieing over, unless that money is yours and you NEED that money to survive day to day. I mean survive! Not for the nice things in life.

Now if I were approached by some skumbag villain who wanted my cash and he was not visably armed, I would stand up for myself all the while getting my knife/knives ready. If he pulled a knife etc at this point I decide to hand over the cash. We all know the kind of damage a small sharp knife can do... right? Now if I decided he would want more than my cash... Well differnt situation and I would be ready for that. I used to keep my Ram Baton in my rucksack in the top pocket, I could drop the bag and deploy in about 4 secs. Twice I had to use the baton to 'convince' skumbag druggy's to back away and find another victim. I never had to hit anyone and I was confident that I could get in a couple of hard blows without killing anyone. A knife does not give you as many options or rarely the reach. To my mind a Knife is a 'hard kill' item and a stick etc is a 'soft kill' item. By this I mean you need a lot of force and specific hits with a stick etc to kill, a knife requires one hit to kill. Almost no training is needed with a knife, an amature could hit you several times with a baseball bat etc and maybe break an arm. Would you take the risk with a 4" folder or worse? What if he pulled a Matriarch? :eek:

A stick or more so a baton I agree is not as instantly dangerous as a knife in the average persons hands, but I have moved off topic again! You are lucky to get out of life alive! Don't take risks when you don't have to, save it for when you do. Don't let pride or overconfidence kill you. The only things worth dieing for is the life of another or yourself. Money can be replaced, can you?:(

Carry as little cash as needed and get a drop wallet with a lot of small bills or a token amont of cash in it. I don't do this as I need not worry where I live about mugging. I never have much cash on me anyway and if someone wants me to empty my pockets...:D
 
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