International Knifemakers Association

JTknives

JTknives

Joined
Jun 11, 2006
Messages
8,651
I moved the discussion for the IKA here. i came with some bylaws today. the big one first.
the International knifemakers Association will not ban or restrect knife making proceses or materials. knives can be sent out for heatreating but for tests the maker must beable to show proper teatreating for there chosen steel. knives must be hand made not hand assembled from prefab parts not made by the maker. If the maker uses outside processes other than there own thay must disclose said processes.
 
I get the impression I came in to the middle of a conversation. Can you point me backwards so I know where ahead is? :confused:

Rob!
 
its from the post (is there any hope). im trying to start a group like the ABS but for every one. because onley makers that forge can be tested and recive a master smith stamp. i beleve that all makers should beable to be tested and recive stamps. im trying to get all the bylaws and foundation set so we can move ahead. i realy need help here. this is for every one so give me some ideas. did you see the wright up about the guild in the latest issue of blade. there cracking down and people are leaving.
 
What? Are they going to ban people who do all their own work rather than have parts done here or there? If you've got the equipement that's okay no matter what the equipment is but are they going to ban water jet cutting unless you buy that equipement too? Or are they now going to have companys join as individual members because some Guild members are designing knives for these companies ? It's a huge joke that organization where they have gone in the last ten years but not the members and the work they are doing no matter if some of there knife parts are being done outside there shop. Frank
 
Thanks
I read the original question in "Is there any hope?" and dropped the thread thinking I knew the answer. I like the way the thread turned though.

In short, yes I would support an inclusive organiation that aspired to qualty knife making and evaluated makers on performance and standards appropriate to the design of the blade. I disagree that all members should be required to pass the same standard - except to the degree that the standard would be excellence.

There are dozens of classes of knives that contribute to our craft - hunters, utility, folders, minatures, fillet, art.... and it would be silly to apply the same stadards to any of those - and equally silly to exclude them from an organization aspiring to advance "the craft".

Rob!
 
JT, it seems a bit counter productive to announce what your bylaws are and already a restriction about something. Maybe work on the Mission statement and what the group will bring to the custom knife industry.

This is a gray area that will cause you some trouble imo

"knives must be hand made not hand assembled from prefab parts not made by the maker"

How about a subculture of "kit knife makers" some of them do very nice work and do disclose that it is a kit. There is so many facets of this trade the golden egg would be how to harness all of the different methods with the bottom line being quality, excellence and honestly

Ultimately you will exclude someone or a process and then you have some form of controversy. Maybe the organisation should lean towards innovations, promote makers that utilize alternate methods.

The foundation of such organisation need be well thought out with an eye on the future so that it may be able to expand and grow with the time. If the motivation is about the promotion of knife making, educating folks and attracting collectors new to the knife world with out the thought of monetary gain it could be a very strong voice.

For me personally after being in the Army for 16 years and excepting and abiding to many rules and regulations, the last thing I want to do is pay dues and be told or governed with some bylaws that tell me how I must conduct myself.

The bottom line is you are judge by customers you either have customers that like you knives and the methods you use to achieve those knives or you do not.

If I where going to take on such an endeavor as this, my motivation would be what can my organization do for the custom knife industry, its members and the collector future knifemaker?

Please understand this is just my opinion and not trying to knock what you are trying to do

Good luck with your project
Spencer
 
JT,You know having different catagorys of knifemaking would be cool also.Like the contests at shows...A stamp could be had with the certicicate that says you are a master (or what ever way you choose to word it) in that catagory.And you could have a catagory for kits and for knives that the parts were pre-made....

Like I said before yopu will not be able to please everybody,but this sounds like a really good idea...This will take allot of thought and work and I think you should get a group of guys together-makers-collectors and discuss all this face to face...The collectors can be more for keeping things even and fair to the greater majority (as every maker is gonna want it to suit them and not be standardized)This will need a standardized structure or it wont work I hate to say,but it can be done..
Bruce
 
man thanks very good. yes i agree about not restricting the knifemaker. maybe just keep the first line.
 
SAR said:
This is a gray area that will cause you some trouble imo

"knives must be hand made not hand assembled from prefab parts not made by the maker"
Click to expand...

I agree...especialy as you are hoping to make this an Intenational organisation......As an example, most Scandinavian knife makers use blades made by somone else and only fabricate the handle and sheaths, but their quality of work can often be spectacular.
 
im in utah and dont know of any one here. i have never talked to another maker face to face. does any one know any one in utah. wait i do know some one in utah Ray Ennis of Entrek USA. he is a stock remover and uses all the fancy equiptment.
 
I believe that if the knife serves the function for which it is made it doesn't matter who , where, or how it was made. Isn't this where we trying to go now? What's wrong with a maker having all the computer controled tools that will do the work for him? It's what the end result shows. I believe the Guild got into one of those "lets try to please all of the members all of the time" things. It never works. Now look at these forums. We have makers here doing from the simplest to the miost complicated and from several countries as well. There are no dues or rules on how you must proceedto make what you want. People willingly offer help and answers. When questions are asked about what equipment is being used it is solely so that a better answer may be given. You can even show your finished knife and try to sell it. It's a pretty wonderful organization we have right here !!!! Frank
 
JTknives said:
its from the post (is there any hope). im trying to start a group like the ABS but for every one. because onley makers that forge can be tested and recive a master smith stamp. i beleve that all makers should beable to be tested and recive stamps. im trying to get all the bylaws and foundation set so we can move ahead. i realy need help here. this is for every one so give me some ideas. did you see the wright up about the guild in the latest issue of blade. there cracking down and people are leaving.
Click to expand...

To clear up a couple of things:

The Guild is not "cracking down". It's a matter of their by-laws state that a member must "engage in the making of handmade knives". The Guilds definition of handmade is "knives that are 100% made by the maker, in the maker's own shop, using his or her own equipment".

They DO allow outside work including embellishments (engraving, scrimshaw, carving), assembly items (screws, pins, washers), heat treatment, and collaborations between probationary, voting and/or founding members.

Your "people are leaving" statement is misleading. Sure, some have left, and many have joined. Even Bob Terzoula, whose speech at the Guild meeting is 99% the content of the Blade article, has not left and is still a member in good standing with the Guild.

Also incorrect are your assumptions about International membership. The Guild is indeed an international organization and has voting members from Canada, Italy, Slovakia, Japan, Australia, Germany, UK, South Africa, Czech Republic, Switzerland, and the Netherlands.

The Guilds Board of Directors is struggling with defining where one crosses the line of "handmade". Some makers/member are not allowed to sell their knives at the Guild Show becuase they had primary parts made by outside sources and thus did not qualify under the current definition of "handmade".

I would really hate to see the knifemaking community become more fragmented and I think too many organzations only dillutes them all.
 
JT, I'm watching this and am excited.

I have a couple basic things I'd like to say:

(all strictly my opinion, yaknow, but I been thinkin)

one is, that for the basic "Ah kin mahk a knife" stamp, the test knife/knives should be completely made by the person testing, with the exception of damascus/mosaic/handle *materials*

This is a BASIC stamp, you don't have to make your own damascus or phenolic resin scales, but you should be able to produce the knife!

If the test knives are stainless or some other ridiculously difficult to heat treat steel, I suppose outside heat treatment is fine.

After all, the first general basic knifemaker stamp is just that. It's your yellow belt, not your black belt. it's going from probationer to apprentice, so to speak.

After that, I love the idea of specializing a bit in recognition. For smithing I'd suggest accepting ABS stamps on an equal footing and ONLY giving stamps that REALLY are equivalent in skill demonstration.

For art knives, folders, working knives, and etc, I'd like to see real standards, but I feel it must be pointed out that for standards to be real they have to be standard or else every schmoe can come along and say that he should be exempt from making a wharncliffe because he doesn't like them and wants to have his belt knife test based on a tomahawk. Standards don't restrict what you make for SALE but you have to have some set of stuff that demonstrates skill on a level playing field.

I'd love to see a probationer->knifemaker->journeyman in a given area -> mastyer in a given area progression, maybe even with some non technical recognition for education or community efforts or something.

I love the idea, I want it to mean something real, and I hope it goes well. Hit me up for help :)
 
When this new organization was being discussed in the earlier thread, I started working on a basic outline of some ideas for the different levels of knifemakers and the advancement procedures, but I realized I don't really have any idea what I'm talking about, so I kept quiet. I am glad to see a lot of the same ideas are being aired here. It means I'm not totally nuts.
 
DrThunder88 said:
It means I'm not totally nuts.
Click to expand...

Nahhh.... too easy. :p (kidding)

Coyote - I like your yellow belt to black belt analogy. When I started making knives, I was feeling pretty alone - just me and the Bob Loveless book with a file and hacksaw.

I very much wanted somewhere to belong - a wing to tuck under or a mild recognition of accomplishment. The "small steps" idea (can't say that without thinking of Jodie Foster in Contact) - is a good model to encourage progressively developed skills.

Rob!
 
Why bother with any organization? Make a fantastic knife, make a testing video and put it on Youtube. The interweb is the future, not good ole boy networks with inner circles. Prove your knife is good, in the end thats what matters, not who's club you belong to.


If you want to have a group of friends great, if you want to have a knife club thats great too but look into the history of good knifemakers who have left the premiere knife making organizations, its been a topic on many forums. The only reason the ABS has remained intact is because they are very focused in their direction and intention.


According to your version some Chinese Corporation President could sign up and have all the work done by others and then put in the Pivot Pin and sell it as a custom folder. Why don't you check out the Arkansas Knife Makers Association then consider creating a similar group in your state focused on locals, not particulars, just a thought anyway.
 
How about "Blade Artisans"--"The Hell Test"?


I do swords too; some guys make hatchets, axes and 'hawks. You could pull in a very large and diverse group with a singular goal.

The cool thing about this is you have the opportunity to include a lot more craftsmen, all looking for an affiliation that ultimately says "I am interested in quality in my work, and I want everyone to know it".

If you focus on a test for quality of the item, and require that the person presenting it show that they put a great deal of time and effort into the end result, I think that's all you'd need, and it could work very well.

Kind of like Underwriter's Laboratory (UL), but dealing in the handmade, edged, item.

It shouldn't be hard to figure out how something is supposed to work; what makes it durable, keep an edge, flex or not flex; what type of steel, wood, handle, guard, decoration, etc. was used. And it should be obvious what changes were made to a stock knife; "look, nice filework, cool". That would be enough to prove they put sufficient artistic effort into the piece. You'd just need to set up guidlines for each catagory of submission.

Heck if everyone trusted them enough, one person could do all of the above. I'm not reccomending it of course, but seriously how hard is it to test a knife's edge, and see where it's breaking point is? You could have all the stuff mailed to you, you test it out, get a few witnesses, have a lawyer write up a signed document, and send the guy's busted knife back to them with a certificate stating "Blade of this catagory, of this design, tested=ACCEPTED". Everything else would be getting your name out there and getting it respected.

If they wanted another design or a different catagory of tool tested, they'd have to apply for that too, and send in another piece to be tested. Kinda like the Library of Congress copywrite office.

The more I think about it, the more that actually sounds pretty dam cool!! I hope you actually do this, I'll keep watching the forum!
 
Few more ideas:

Also for members, they could have all of their tests kept on file, on the main website. That way you could keep bogus certificates from being valid, and the member could easily point customers to the website where they would see that the test was passed and on what date.

To be a member you need to pass one test and pay a one-time fee, maybe make it the same price as the testing fee. So, you pay the same price for any further tools you want tested. This would eliminate dues, but still keep the site up perhaps?


Edit: You could collect dozens of "Stamps" or "Marks" this way; all of the maker's efforts would be rewarded and acknowledged, while at the same time, almost no one (who puts effort into their work and art, however their approach or style may be) would be excluded or left out. You're judging the individual item, like a one time quality control in that catagory, not the artisan.
 
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