International Knifemakers Association

You're going to look like race-car drivers with all these stamps/stickers/symbols/other S words. I agree with Bubba, Frank and MisterSat. There isn't a strong need for another large organization, you can prove your knives are good right here on BF. If you hammer out knives you can get an MS stamp, if you're a stock-remover or hot-worker you can join the Guild. You can also start and/or join local guilds to promote knifemaking and quality in your community. That's what we did in North Carolina and our guild is quite successful.

With so many ways to make a knife, a set of standardized tests is either going to limit the kinds of knives you can do or be an impossibly large body of tests that someone has document and keep up with.

I know and have access to some of the best makers out there, if I want to know if my knives are any good I can just hand or send them one and ask. If I want to see if I can/can't destroy my knife with a given test, I'll just do it. If I only ever test myself once and then my knives/tools/processes change, my test has little contemporary value.

The next two things I'm going to say because no one else brought it up in the forum. This is not meant as an attack and is said with candor and without malice.

First, if you wish to be taken seriously, you must begin to use proper spelling, punctuation and English convention. I understand that we all make mistakes and that the internet is somehow less conducive to proper use of the English language, but if you intend to become a figurehead or leading promoter of this organization, you will have to improve.

Second, you must get the backing of makers with notoriety. An organization formed by little-known group of makers who have not yet garnered the respect and admiration of the collector/maker community has a very good chance of attaining fringe group status instead of international recognition.

I am neither a well-respected maker nor have I ever won a spelling bee, these criticisms are strictly meant to be constructive.
 
Bubbanumber1 said:
Why bother with any organization? Make a fantastic knife, make a testing video and put it on Youtube. The interweb is the future, not good ole boy networks with inner circles. Prove your knife is good, in the end thats what matters, not who's club you belong to.
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That puts all responsibility for judging test standards on the customer, all responsibility for developing tyest standards on each individual knifemaker, relies on people making judgements based on what is some really crappy video, and denigrates the positive aspects of man as a social creature.

It's great if you don't like organizations of any stripe, but you gotta admit they are useful. Even fire departments.

Bubbanumber1 said:
If you want to have a group of friends great, if you want to have a knife club thats great too but look into the history of good knifemakers who have left the premiere knife making organizations, its been a topic on many forums. The only reason the ABS has remained intact is because they are very focused in their direction and intention.
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The primary reason, IMO, that the ABS is still going well is that they've managed to promote themselves as a fraternal educational and social organization for bladesmiths and maintained a decent set of standards.

Why is it you think no one else can do that? or that it is worthless to try?

Bubbanumber1 said:
According to your version some Chinese Corporation President could sign up and have all the work done by others and then put in the Pivot Pin and sell it as a custom folder. Why don't you check out the Arkansas Knife Makers Association then consider creating a similar group in your state focused on locals, not particulars, just a thought anyway.
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(club is a bad term for this as it's intended, IMO, as a standands and recognition systems more than a drinking group)

I've already addressed this with the suggestion that a basic stamp require a complete making of a knife. But what you are saying is that if people are restrictive and sctrict enough, other people will try to cheat or game the system.

Yep. They Will. And that is why you have governing boards and can modify rules and make situations where the membership as a whole can vote for changes.

There's an idea that you either have to make a perfect organization (as if anything made by man is perfect and permanent!) or make it "foolproof" against abuse. And if you don't or can't, that you shouldn't do anything. That's great for couch potatoing, but not for developing the knifemaking community and teaching people how to make their own nice knives instead of BEING loveseat loafing hash browns, yaknow.
 
If the Abs said well we can just stay with the guild the organization would never have become what it is today....

If the guild gave out grade levels for makers this would not be needed or wanted.

Giving gradeded levels in a association lets the memebers know who is at what level of the learning proccess,you wouldnt look at a associate members knives the same as you would a Masters knives,but with no grade labeling you dont know and can really break a newbie and ruin a promising carrer.

By having a labeling in the association buyers can know what level your at and buy what they want but if they want the best of the best they have a great starting point to look at just by looking at what level your at.

I grade labeling doesnt matter then why did the Orientals have a system,Blacksmiths had a system,Machinests have a system,plumbers have a system,carpenters have a system..Heck join a lodge and they even have different levels....It is a goal for the nebie to want to reach,it makes everybody push limits to become the best of the best,and lets new makers know who to talk to if they want to learn from the guys with allot of knowledge....

Masters have taught apprentices since the begginig of time,that is how it is and how it should be......But without a labeling system know one knows what level they are at to begin with.Sure it is just for that organization and their beliefs and standards,but it is their standards a beliefs and you can join and go by the rules or stay out,but if you stay out dont fuss because you cant have what the memebers have unless you want to make your own association and get everyone you can with you (like a kid who doesnt like someone elses club house)...Otherwise we all would just go to one church with one way of thinking,drive one brand of car,live in only one kind of house,so on and so on.....

Thier is plenty of room for another organization,as many now belong to both the guild and the ABS..A new organization run well will do nothing more than keep promoting knives and teaching the art of knifemaking to our future generations...

These are just my thoughts and I dont expect anyone to agree with me.
Bruce
 
The Knifemakers Guild does have a grade level of sorts.

A new applicant must present knives to be inspected and judged by voting members. If his work is at an acceptable minimum quality he will be allowed to join as a Probationary Member.

A Probationary Member must maintain that status for a minimun of 2 years. (Exception made for ABS master smiths.) During the probationary period the maker must present knives to be inspected and judged by voting members.

After at least 2 years as Probationary Member, the maker again presents knives for inspection and if his quality is judged acceptable he will be voted in as a Voting Member. If not, he will serve another year as a Probationary Member.

So you know a probationary member's work has met at least the minimum standards of the Guild. You also know that a Voting Member's work has improved enough or met the standards of the Guild.
 
That is like going from apprentice to Journeyman....what about a master level? just something to know when someone has advanced farther than just becomeing a voting memeber....But at least they have a level in a sense.
Bruce
 
What bruce said, and with the following:

One of the primary missions of any organization like this is to gather and disseminate (And verify) information and knowledge. It's not just a sticker on your bumper.

The guild doesn't *appear* (I'm not a member) to have a system in place where you can join not having even MADE a knife, not having anything judged, and start developing your obsession- er, I mean career :)

The Guild doesn't appear to have enough grading to offer people with specialities or whatever a way to grow the field.

The ABS has a strong mentor philosophy, a great fraternal atmoshphere, and some good standards. Unfortunately, you have to do one specific thing- forge (and at least for your ticket, forge knives).

So why NOT, without any acrimony, with full cooperation, with full respect for what HAS been done before- reinvent the wheel a little differently?
 
My 10 cents. I am very new

a primary objective is to show buyers that the seller is providing value no matter what is being produced and is disclosing all aspects of their work that effects the performance of the knife, sword, tomahawk etc.

Methods and materials are disclosed and accurate. ie if you do your own heattreat how do you test and what is the performance you are willing to certify.

I would like to see a structure in which a new person can enter the field as a apprentice and move to journey man and finally Master. There would be a structure for training/mentoring and certification for each step.
 
First of all I'd have no problem with multiple achievments on my wall, each showing excellence in craftsmanship. Not a sticker, a mark of accomplishment. "I made a spectacular Bowie, a Katana, and a European Dagger, and each one passed a respected and known group's tests, with flying colors." Yes I would be proud to display those.

Second, I meant a variety of catagories, and a few sub-catagories; not every tiny little serration you add you need to test again. If you made it excellent once, why wouldn't you make every one excellent, especially if there is little difference in shape. Most knives quite honestly are variations on the same handfull of patterns; if not at least they can be catagorized by length or number of edges.

I know my work is good, and I don't need a forum or any affiliation for that matter to tell me. The problem is, as has been said, the two groups are restrictive: do it this way, no other way. I respect that for what it is, but I'm asking for another way of acknowlegement, since I'm excluded for one reason or another.

Furthermore, even if you are a master smith, or a voting member, the majority of people you meet on the street won't even know what you're talking about. You'll have to explain it to your friends if they aren't collectors or makers. If you say "I made a crazy strong tanto the other day, it's edge holding ability was incredible, and it was beautiful; I have a certificate for it's excellence in craftsmanship. I could make you one if you like." maybe they'd catch on quicker. Granted the same can be said for the ABS and the Guild, I reckon, but it's more to the point.
 
koyote said:
So why NOT, without any acrimony, with full cooperation, with full respect for what HAS been done before- reinvent the wheel a little differently?
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It takes a tremendous amount of work, organization, promotion, time and money to establish a recognized organizaton.

My feeling is that this thread started off as somewhat of a knee-jerk reaction to one man's opinion in the Blade Magazine article. The proposed IKA adressed none of the issues that prompted the article.

However, this has turned out to be a good discussion with several good ideas in my opinion. I am a new first year probationary member of the Knifemakers Guild. There are some things that I don't agree with about the Guild. I have found that the Guild's directors are receptive and do consider ideas and changes that the Guild may need to make in the future. Basically it all comes down to the membership who elects the directors and votes on the issues.

My point about not reinventing the wheel is that the Guild is an established and respected oraganization. All of the elements and members are already in place. It makes more sense to me to allow the Guild to respond to the need and wishes of the membership and/or potential members.

I think some sort of apprentice, journeyman, master classsification would be a great idea for the Guild.
 
Mister Sat, I did not see the article until after I started this. I don’t see how this is going to fragment the knife community because this is for the people that are not accepted into the other organizations for some reason or another. Bruce do you feel bettor now letting all that out, keeping all that inside you could cause you to explode :eek:. Man I have lots of great people on my side. I don’t see why any one would be against a group like this, where not trying to change any one or what they do; just provide a place for other knife makers to feel excepted. I need every and all ideas you have; you can send them to my email (JTcustomknives@yahoo.com). About the levels I think it should be like college where you can get your degree in what ever you want. you can work your way up say the folder chain so you can get your stamp as a "master folder maker".
 
since there are different knife styles (hunter folder art) how bout get7 styles to pick from and have them make 4-5 and test them that way for the =JS stamp then a different higher standard for the =MS stamp (or stencil etch ;) )
maybe folder in the higher level not the starter
 
I've played with 2 kit folders, because I love making fixed blades but wanted to see what it was all about. And tell ya, those things are pretty intense. I'd be more than happy to see an organization have the equivalent of an MS mark for a master folder maker. And I won't worry too much about which shop does his stainless spring HT, either.

I'm trying to figure out how making an inclusive organization with the idea of cooperating with existing groups (the guild and the ABS) fragments the community. What I see is a few people joining who are already members of the other(s)- and having dual or triple membership. And a lot of people NOT affiliated with EITHER group, joining this third one. That doesn't seem fragmentary to me, but more like accretion. Which I'd argue is good.

I can see getting too ...flighty with the different classes. About as far as I've thought it through to the point where I'd write up a test guide is the basic "I can make a knife of some sort that's useful and can survive use as a knife" level.
Beyond that I don't know enough about how different the differences are- I know that a kitchen knife and a woodcraft are different, but different enough for separate stamps? (what if you include ulus and double handled chopping knives and such in kitchen knives? there's something to be said for having the education to know about ALL the sharp things in a kitchen).

Swords are different beast than camp knives, but do you have to go with the mythology and have katana versus norse folded steel versus post reformation German sword culture differences? is a sword a sword?
 
JT, I'm sure you are a heck of a nice guy, so don't take this personally.

Respectfully, This is not practical or likely to go much farther than Jacob McDonald's floating bow fishing knife industry.

It takes a lot of paperwork and legal work to establish even a small local society. If you are planning on an International organization with standards and testing, plan on investing a LARGE sum of money, as well as maybe a year before it is even ready to talk about.

Add to that, that it will take many years to establish the membership and board of directors as a recognized group of known experts in the several fields you are contemplating. Then it will take several years it will take to set up the testing and peer revue system...... With a lot of luck and support, (and maybe $50,000-100,000) you might get it going in 10 years.

If however you and your buddies want to start a club and make your own rules,test, and rituals, please be my guest. However , do not expect much creditability by the rest of the knife community.
Stacy
 
I agree Stacy that this will take time and allot of hard work ...but what you just said is about the same thing Moran and teh others heard when they started the ABS,and look were it is today....Sometimes little ideas in back rooms with a handful of people grow to be large organizations...

JT,I think you have the basics of what you will need to get this started,now you need to just get a handful of the right guys together to hash out all the ideas and start coming up with everything needed to start something...

All it takes is a couple of guys to start a state named association and have it take off....

Good Luck,
Bruce
 
Biggest thing *I* think is to do the doing.

going "international" and having all sorts of bank accounts and paperwork and lawyers and such are fine, but- "fly that falcon when the pinions are grown". right now it's an egg, not even a hatchling.

I often see things people intend to do fail to happen because it's assumed that you have to START as a fortune 500 level organization to accomplish anything- you gotta be ISO 9001 *before* you even buy the plant, so to speak.

Bit of cart before the horse, I think.

Yeah, it's a big project. Yeah, you are going to have to find a spell checker that won't let you mix up accept with except. Yeah, a website has to happen. And someone has to come up with a membership guideline, at the very least a basic idea of what makes someone an "accepted" knifemaker and not just a dues member. And someone has to buy the beer. And you gotta figure out what to do about all the naysayers without calling names. And how to handle the crap artists.

But, in the immortal words of Papazian- "Relax. Don't worry. Have a homebrew." It gets done by doing. Just gotta do it.
 
Bruce, I agree with what you said.
But remember, It took Bill, Don,and original handful of guys (all of which were well known makers) a while to even get 20 members (there were a lot less makers back then!). Also, the testing and rating of members did not come first, but several years later.

Your advise to start a smaller society dedicated to knife making is a good idea. The rest will come with time.

My last caveat is ,"Don't put the cart before the horse." Get the membership and society established before even discussing any testing and rating.
( Or to allegorize it as I often do: You don't want to ask a girl out on a first date by discussing the type and quality of sex you plan on having later in the relationship.)
Stacy

Koyote,
Believe it or not, but you have to have the lawyers and such to start even a small society. Unless you want to be talking to the IRS. If there are ANY dues, or fees involved (even the beer fund), then it requires a charter.
 
Man I really like the College Idea/analogy. Kinda combines my ramblings with the also interesting belt progression ideas. You could take many classes, or focus on a few, be graded and ranked, and have something to show for it at the end. And you could always take another course.

Regardless of where you go with this, my only advice is to keep it simple, and don't quit on it unless you feel it has no merit. Someone else is just going to pick up the best ideas and run with them if you don't! Watch and see.

Yeah in my philosophy, a "sword is a sword" "knife is a knife" "an edge is an edge". Everyone overcomplicates everything. I find the more years you put into something, the simpler everything becomes. Or I got hit in the head and that's my long term memory leaving.
 
My suggestion was to find a local organization that already exists and get involved, not to blow the whole idea off the table.
 
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