Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
Wait just a minute here Cliff, I have seen Jerry Busse, Phil Wilson, and Blues all in the same room, however not all at the same time. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Interpreting the brass rod deflection test
- Thread starter Will York
- Start date
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Rob, Its just an optical illusion, similar to when one of my posts looks like it makes sense.
-Cliff
-Cliff
Rob Simonich
Big Bear
- Joined
- Oct 3, 1998
- Messages
- 2,294
An optical illusion as in like our mutual girlfriend? Scary $hit! 
Signed Clork Bustamp
Signed Clork Bustamp
Damnit! Now I feel like a bully.
Cliff, you are on your way to establishing yourself as an expert. If you are truly serious about it, you should be more willing to say, "I don't know," when you do not. It will go a long way toward garnering respect. I am thinking about your answer to "Why use a brass rod," mostly. If you can't entirely dismount from your high-horse, then try, "I don't know...yet!"
Also, try to familiarize yourself with "peer review," if you want to publish research.
In another thread, you <i>seem</i> intent on belittling the new S30V, right out of the mill, so to speak. This is one of the rare alloys which was specifically designed for handheld knife blades, and it rates more thoughtful analysis that you are giving it.
I bring this up because your response to my ridicule, here, gives me pause. I'm seeing that you are at least partially open to reconsidering some of your own statements, and I am encouraged. I'm wondering if maybe your intentions would be more clear, in what you publish, if you would re-write the things you want to say before you post them.
Notwithstanding the above, I still have two problems with your constant name dropping. Most importantly it is illogical. It is the Appeal To Authority Fallacy. Secondly, it looks like cronyism. Neither of these has any place in research.
I'm thinking, if you're not doing it deliberately, you must not be re-writing to polish your work.
-Confused-
(Edited for grammar.)
Cliff, you are on your way to establishing yourself as an expert. If you are truly serious about it, you should be more willing to say, "I don't know," when you do not. It will go a long way toward garnering respect. I am thinking about your answer to "Why use a brass rod," mostly. If you can't entirely dismount from your high-horse, then try, "I don't know...yet!"
Also, try to familiarize yourself with "peer review," if you want to publish research.
In another thread, you <i>seem</i> intent on belittling the new S30V, right out of the mill, so to speak. This is one of the rare alloys which was specifically designed for handheld knife blades, and it rates more thoughtful analysis that you are giving it.
I bring this up because your response to my ridicule, here, gives me pause. I'm seeing that you are at least partially open to reconsidering some of your own statements, and I am encouraged. I'm wondering if maybe your intentions would be more clear, in what you publish, if you would re-write the things you want to say before you post them.
Notwithstanding the above, I still have two problems with your constant name dropping. Most importantly it is illogical. It is the Appeal To Authority Fallacy. Secondly, it looks like cronyism. Neither of these has any place in research.
I'm thinking, if you're not doing it deliberately, you must not be re-writing to polish your work.
-Confused-
(Edited for grammar.)
- Joined
- Jan 21, 2000
- Messages
- 8,888
Sam-
I think I've finally spotted the source of your consternation. It's plain you've confused Cliff Stamp with someone else. I've read most of his material closely, and I can testify unequivocally that to date, I've seen not one scrap of evidence in any of Cliff's writings that would give the slightest indication he recognizes anyone or anything resembling an authority.
-Spartacus
Cliff Stamp
BANNED
- Joined
- Oct 5, 1998
- Messages
- 17,562
Sam :
I am aware of the process, I have at least four (hopefully six but definately four) papers coming out next year in various physics journals, condensed matter physics if you are curious.
It is what it is, I have actually been thinking about it for quite some time as I was made aware of it way back in Oct. of 1999. What I stated was based on how the materials properties of S30V (as Crucible is promoting it) relate to what I desire in a knife. Quite simply S30V offers no advantage for me, assuming of course that the performance fits in the performance that Crucible is claiming. If it turns out to be as tough as 5160 or have better wear resistance than S90V then yes, pretty much all of what I said is really off. However no one expects that to be the case. As I stated, it is obvious there is a huge market for S30V as one exists for ATS-34, I am just not a part of it, no more, no less.
I can guarantee that if you were to ask me the same question every six months you would keep getting new answers. You could probably go weekly and see similar effects.
In the above I was looking for an example where high ductility looked to be implied (flex to plastic) in a steel where is should not, Phil's testing on his S90V fillet knives was the only thing that came to mind. Now I just could have said that I did it on a S90V fillet knife at 59 RC, which would be true, but since I only did it because he had told me it could be done I felt that it would be unfair not to give him the nod for the work plus I had to say it was his knife anyway as the detail can't be ignored for heat treat reasons. It is what it is, I have no intention of ignoring the work of others who generously provide it to me.
If I mention his name a lot it is for two main reasons. First off all we see almost exactly eye to eye on issues of blade performance, how materials properties influence blade types etc. . Thus during a post when I look to give an example of actual work he comes to mind, I could just say what I did, but again since a lot of it is inspired by what he does, I don't think it would be fair to ignore it. He does the same thing by the way to Wayne Goddard and a few other makers. I never saw it as name dropping just giving credit where it was due, perspectives differ of course. Ed Fowler does the same thing in his video by the way, again I just saw it as a sign of respect.
The other reason I reference what he does in particular is because he is one of the few makers who will actually answer very specific questions and thus I discuss knives with him quite a lot. For example a few months ago I began to seriously look for a custom bowie, I asked several makers how thin they would go in regards to the edge profile, not a trivial question. None of them would give specific answers. When I asked Phil he had no problem in giving me an answer, but made it clear that protoypes would need to be made, some experimentation was in order, no problem from my point of view. The other critical part is that he doesn't mind making his results public. There are a huge number of individuals who share work with me which I wish I could reference but they don't want to engage in public debates for reasons well illustrated in this thread. Some of it is on very hot topics such as stock removal vs forging.
I used to reference Ed Schotts work a lot too, as he also does very high performance edge profiles and works in high performance steels and is very up to date on heat treating and was very open and specific. However he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth and thus I don't see the sense in it as I had four people contact me saying they had very poor dealings trying to get knives made by him some were out money and I have no desire to cause that to happen any more.
Actually the vast majority of my posts are written off-line and rewrote many times before posting. If you think the first post is verbose now, you should have seen the first draft, it was just one long ramble. I do go over them quite a few times before posting them here (assuming the content is complex of course). Just ask anyone who asks me a question in email how long it can take to get an answer.
In regards to saying I don't know, in general if I don't know I won't answer a post. I will answer a post even if I have not done the supporting work on the condition that I can make sense out of it from basic physical principles, the above brass rod post for example. When I have direct experience (or have read of it) that supports what I am saying I usually reference it, otherwise I will provide the basic background details, like the elastic and plastic defeformation of steels mentioned in the above. In general if I do talk about performance which I havn't tested I will try to do so and update the thread when I have. This is done for both supporting evidence as well as when I found out that I was really off, for example the Reeves handle.
If someone asks me a direction question in email then I will say I don't know if I can't given an opinion with any confidence. For example I was recently a complex question about grain structure and slicing aggression, my answer (part of it, the discussion was involved) :
I later went on to say what I thought would happen, and what I was basing it on, but made it clear that I was not confident in the out come as I just had not done the required work. In general in those cases I try to at least outline the questions that need to be answered and will file them away referencing the discussion. If I ever get the work done I will fire off an email.
Will :
No, not even me, that is one of the benefits of having multiple personalities, I am an independent observer of my own work and by far its harshest critic.
-Cliff
I am aware of the process, I have at least four (hopefully six but definately four) papers coming out next year in various physics journals, condensed matter physics if you are curious.
It is what it is, I have actually been thinking about it for quite some time as I was made aware of it way back in Oct. of 1999. What I stated was based on how the materials properties of S30V (as Crucible is promoting it) relate to what I desire in a knife. Quite simply S30V offers no advantage for me, assuming of course that the performance fits in the performance that Crucible is claiming. If it turns out to be as tough as 5160 or have better wear resistance than S90V then yes, pretty much all of what I said is really off. However no one expects that to be the case. As I stated, it is obvious there is a huge market for S30V as one exists for ATS-34, I am just not a part of it, no more, no less.
I can guarantee that if you were to ask me the same question every six months you would keep getting new answers. You could probably go weekly and see similar effects.
In the above I was looking for an example where high ductility looked to be implied (flex to plastic) in a steel where is should not, Phil's testing on his S90V fillet knives was the only thing that came to mind. Now I just could have said that I did it on a S90V fillet knife at 59 RC, which would be true, but since I only did it because he had told me it could be done I felt that it would be unfair not to give him the nod for the work plus I had to say it was his knife anyway as the detail can't be ignored for heat treat reasons. It is what it is, I have no intention of ignoring the work of others who generously provide it to me.
If I mention his name a lot it is for two main reasons. First off all we see almost exactly eye to eye on issues of blade performance, how materials properties influence blade types etc. . Thus during a post when I look to give an example of actual work he comes to mind, I could just say what I did, but again since a lot of it is inspired by what he does, I don't think it would be fair to ignore it. He does the same thing by the way to Wayne Goddard and a few other makers. I never saw it as name dropping just giving credit where it was due, perspectives differ of course. Ed Fowler does the same thing in his video by the way, again I just saw it as a sign of respect.
The other reason I reference what he does in particular is because he is one of the few makers who will actually answer very specific questions and thus I discuss knives with him quite a lot. For example a few months ago I began to seriously look for a custom bowie, I asked several makers how thin they would go in regards to the edge profile, not a trivial question. None of them would give specific answers. When I asked Phil he had no problem in giving me an answer, but made it clear that protoypes would need to be made, some experimentation was in order, no problem from my point of view. The other critical part is that he doesn't mind making his results public. There are a huge number of individuals who share work with me which I wish I could reference but they don't want to engage in public debates for reasons well illustrated in this thread. Some of it is on very hot topics such as stock removal vs forging.
I used to reference Ed Schotts work a lot too, as he also does very high performance edge profiles and works in high performance steels and is very up to date on heat treating and was very open and specific. However he seems to have fallen off the face of the earth and thus I don't see the sense in it as I had four people contact me saying they had very poor dealings trying to get knives made by him some were out money and I have no desire to cause that to happen any more.
Actually the vast majority of my posts are written off-line and rewrote many times before posting. If you think the first post is verbose now, you should have seen the first draft, it was just one long ramble. I do go over them quite a few times before posting them here (assuming the content is complex of course). Just ask anyone who asks me a question in email how long it can take to get an answer.
In regards to saying I don't know, in general if I don't know I won't answer a post. I will answer a post even if I have not done the supporting work on the condition that I can make sense out of it from basic physical principles, the above brass rod post for example. When I have direct experience (or have read of it) that supports what I am saying I usually reference it, otherwise I will provide the basic background details, like the elastic and plastic defeformation of steels mentioned in the above. In general if I do talk about performance which I havn't tested I will try to do so and update the thread when I have. This is done for both supporting evidence as well as when I found out that I was really off, for example the Reeves handle.
If someone asks me a direction question in email then I will say I don't know if I can't given an opinion with any confidence. For example I was recently a complex question about grain structure and slicing aggression, my answer (part of it, the discussion was involved) :
I later went on to say what I thought would happen, and what I was basing it on, but made it clear that I was not confident in the out come as I just had not done the required work. In general in those cases I try to at least outline the questions that need to be answered and will file them away referencing the discussion. If I ever get the work done I will fire off an email.
Will :
No, not even me, that is one of the benefits of having multiple personalities, I am an independent observer of my own work and by far its harshest critic.
-Cliff