Investment-grade knives

[nifegrinder]

Learn a little about knives.
A good knife starts out as good materials. The best knifemakers use skill, and the best techniques available to them to turn those materials into a good design.
What are the good steels and who is getting a good heattreat on them?
What handle materials do you like and how can they be preserved to last?
What designs and makers interest you?
How do you preserve and protect your investment?
Why are you even collecting? What kind of return are you hoping for?

For me, the return on my investment will come after I pass it on. Hopefully my children will remember how much I love them and things I taught them when they use the tools I used. Ultimately, my family is the only collection I care about.

 

[wolfeknives]

That is not correct Les. The after market prices went up to the current level sevral years before that sale. Many sales, most of them between collectors have taken place since. Typically the aftermarket price is at 100% - 200%
markup from my selling price.
Wolfgang

Hi Deckard,

Question???

Do you want a collection?

Or do you want an investment?

While the two are not always mutually exclusive....it usually turns out that way.

Short term buy and re-sell for a profit, using the "Time Value of Money" will return...long term a much better profit than buying a knife and hoping 20 years from now to hit it big.

It is a "no brainer" to buy what you like...Just as it is a "no brainer" to buy proven performers. However, with the proven performers if you buy a Schmidt or Lochner or a Walker what kind of ROI are you looking for on your money?? Then add to that "how long will it take you to get that ROI?"

BTW, 3 years ago Mr. Ellis was touting Loveless and Moran....and so it goes.

Loechner is a superior maker, but his aftermarket stock went up primarily because of a huge sale by one collector to another collector at the Chicago show last year.
The question is now is there another buyer out there willing to pay the collector who bought that collection a an equivalent ROI in a particular time frame.

Another note, is that generally the collectors buying knives in the 5 figure and higher range are not doing so for "investment" purposes. As they have other investments for retirement, etc. Although because of the amount of money spent many people point to those makers a "good investments".

There are numerous knives out there that can be bought for $500 and resold for $550 fairly quickly. I would point out that is a 10% ROI. However, most are quick to point out..."It's only $50!"

If you buy a $1,000 knife and ten years from now sell it for $2,000. People get excited that you made $1,000 on that knife. Over ten years...you guessed it your ROI was 10% per year.

You can find investment knives starting at less the $200. The key is to know what your ROI expectation is and how long are you willing to wait to get that.

If you want to make money with custom knives...time to start doing your homework!

 

[betzner]

This kind of thread usually becomes a popularity contest for "best maker" rather than having anything to do with investment grade knives. Lots of names out there, and today's investment grade knife is tomorrow's investment loss.

 

[Kevin Jones]

This kind of thread usually becomes a popularity contest for "best maker" rather than having anything to do with investment grade knives. Lots of names out there, and today's investment grade knife is tomorrow's investment loss.

I agree Bob.
IMO, a collector must do the leg work to determine what knife best suits their criteria as a collectible and/or investment. Don't fall into the trap of selecting a knife that suits someone else's. Like I said earlier it's not as simple as just selecting a maker, as some of his/her knives may be excellent investments while others may not.

And I don't care how proven a maker is from an investment prospective, if you pay too much it's not a good investment. I believe some collectors are now finding they paid too much for some of these "blue chip" knives.

 

[Kohai999]

This kind of thread usually becomes a popularity contest for "best maker" rather than having anything to do with investment grade knives. Lots of names out there, and today's investment grade knife is tomorrow's investment loss.

Bob,

That is really true, generally...we have all seen it.

THUS far, however, I simply look at Dave's and DDD's offering of 4 names as a case study, for future consideration.

In addition, counter to what Les frequently writes, it isn't like Dave Ellis stopped moving Loveless and Moran knives....to the contrary, they are still extremely hot, investment quality knives.

Les just has many problems with Loveless knives, I am pretty sure he is wrong in this case. It is POSSIBLE that there will be small downward corrections on hunters, due to oversaturation over the years, but this will be absolutely mitigated by fighters, chutes and subhilts gaining ground.

This exercise is not necessarily a waste of time, either. Maybe the OP is not, and will not be in a position to throw down the big dollars we are writing about, but there are many others who are and will be.

Good for all concerned, imo. I frikkin' LOVE that Wolfe responded...sorta takes the guesswork out of it, no?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[betzner]

STeven - In order to keep it simple, I generally discount the phrase "investment grade knives", but some of us actually know which are and which aren't - and in some cases, which ought to be - though subjectivity rules that point for all of us.

I have three rules -the first one is to buy it if you really love it. Everything else flows from there.

On a separate note - damn, I wish the knife fairy to wave a wand and have two or three Loerchner knives on the table when I walk in that door at Santa Barbara. Even one would do.

 

[Kevin Jones]

Bob,

That is really true, generally...we have all seen it.

THUS far, however, I simply look at Dave's and DDD's offering of 4 names as a case study, for future consideration.

In addition, counter to what Les frequently writes, it isn't like Dave Ellis stopped moving Loveless and Moran knives....to the contrary, they are still extremely hot, investment quality knives.

Les just has many problems with Loveless knives, I am pretty sure he is wrong in this case. It is POSSIBLE that there will be small downward corrections on hunters, due to oversaturation over the years, but this will be absolutely mitigated by fighters, chutes and subhilts gaining ground.

This exercise is not necessarily a waste of time, either. Maybe the OP is not, and will not be in a position to throw down the big dollars we are writing about, but there are many others who are and will be.

Good for all concerned, imo. I frikkin' LOVE that Wolfe responded...sorta takes the guesswork out of it, no?

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

I think Les likes to beat Loveless knives down as much as you like to fluff them up.
Reality probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Ellis]

The three makers I mentioned, can be bought today and sold tomorrow for a profit.
As for Loveless,Moran,Walker and the others, they still sell but if you are looking to turn a quick buck, the three that I mentioned are the hottest of the hot (in my opinion and experience, and yes it cost a bit more to paly in their yard)
Dave

 

[betzner]

The three makers I mentioned, can be bought today and sold tomorrow for a profit.
As for Loveless,Moran,Walker and the others, they still sell but if you are looking to turn a quick buck, the three that I mentioned are the hottest of the hot (in my opinion and experience, and yes it cost a bit more to paly in their yard)
Dave

I love my knives and I love a profit - but I choose to disregard the opinions of dealers. My advice for anyone who wants to buy an "investment grade knife" is to never listen to a dealer when it comes to pricing or the dealer's opinion of a knife, but instead make up your own mind. Never suspend disbelief (I believe that qualifies almost as a triple negative).

Be guided by what you love, not necessarily what you are told.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

If you can get knives from certain makers at the price they sell them for, you can turn around and double your money almost immediately. Names like Ken Onion and Kit Carson come to mind. The problem is that it isn't easy to get one of their knives directly from the maker. If I was in it for the money, I would be attending as many shows as possible and I would be putting my name in for the draws being held by the "HOT" makers. Of course you have to be able to make enough money doing this to cover the cost of attending the shows, and to still be making a good profit.

 

[Kohai999]

I think Les likes to beat Loveless knives down as much as you like to fluff them up.
Reality probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Kevin,

As you know, I have been collecting knives for over 25 years now....at NO point in my collecting experience has a Loveless knife been readily affordable to me.

I can handle them, I can even visit them at friend's houses, take pictures of them....but the knife that I really want(Dixon Fighter)would, at BEST "good guy" price, run me around $15,000, and I cannot justify that.

I didn't make Loveless the person he is...and certainly didn't make him arguably the most famous living knifemaker...but that is the reality.

Loveless knives are the definition of an investment grade knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[betzner]

Kevin,

Loveless knives are the definition of an investment grade knife.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

This will be debated for years - and during that time, Loveless knives will continue to be recognized as investment grade, though not necessarily the absolute standard - IMHO. Only time will tell. In the meantime, I want me one a them there Dixon fighters, too, LOL.

 

[martinr]

If you can get knives from certain makers at the price they sell them for, you can turn around and double your money almost immediately. Names like Ken Onion and Kit Carson come to mind. The problem is that it isn't easy to get one of their knives directly from the maker. If I was in it for the money, I would be attending as many shows as possible and I would be putting my name in for the draws being held by the "HOT" makers. Of course you have to be able to make enough money doing this to cover the cost of attending the shows, and to still be making a good profit.

The fact that someone can double or triple their money on a knife by a "hot" maker hasn't been lost on the many purveyors attending shows. I have mixed feelings about purveyors entering drawings for knives. On the one hand it certainly decreases my chances of having my number drawn, on the other it makes it possible to buy some of the hard to get knives that would otherwise be unavailable if they were all squirreled away by collectors. What I find distasteful is when a purveyor offers to pay a fee to show attendees and other maker/friends for entering a lottery and then resells the knives online. As in "Are you in the Emerson lottery? Put your name in and if you are drawn I will pay for the knife and give you $100". I saw five knives go to the same purveyor at the Pasadena show. Not fair in my opinion but the knifemaker could put a stop to it if they really wanted to. Make the person that was drawn pay for the knife himself. This would not stop it completely but it would make it more difficult and maybe some of the people really wanting a knife from a particular maker would have more of a chance.

 

[Kohai999]

As in "Are you in the Emerson lottery? Put your name in and if you are drawn I will pay for the knife and give you $100". I saw five knives go to the same purveyor at the Pasadena show. Not fair in my opinion but the knifemaker could put a stop to it if they really wanted to. Make the person that was drawn pay for the knife himself.

If Jack Alvarez wants to continually show his ass to the public by pulling stunts like this, eventually the makers will get smart and start charging substantial fees JUST to draw....something like $40.00/ticket....increases the revenue stream all across the board for them AND cuts out Jack's profit margin.

Too bad it had to come to this, but Jack has always looked out for Jack, and screw everyone else(and I LIKE Jack).

Best Regards,

STEven Garsson

 

[RogerP]

I love my knives and I love a profit - but I choose to disregard the opinions of dealers. My advice for anyone who wants to buy an "investment grade knife" is to never listen to a dealer when it comes to pricing or the dealer's opinion of a knife, but instead make up your own mind. Never suspend disbelief (I believe that qualifies almost as a triple negative).

Be guided by what you love, not necessarily what you are told.

Gotta disagree with that as a general proposition. I think a good dealer can be a great source of information on this subject. Of course, you have to make up your own mind - that goes without saying - but categorically dismissing dealers as a source of information is not something I would recommend.

Roger

 

[martinr]

I like Jack A. also, but I couldn't help notice the look of annoyance on Mary Emersons face as all those collectors that didn't get drawn stood around and said WTF is going on. It's unfortunate because the real collectors or collector/users will have to spend $1200 instead of $650, and that's if they can even afford $1200.

 

[betzner]

Gotta disagree with that as a general proposition. I think a good dealer can be a great source of information on this subject. Of course, you have to make up your own mind - that goes without saying - but categorically dismissing dealers as a source of information is not something I would recommend.

Roger

Hi Roger-

The operative phrases here have to do with a person making up their own mind on an investment grade knife. In giving this advice, I am figuring the advice is being given to someone less familiar with what they are considering buying.

You are probably right that I really should not be dismissing ALL dealers' commentaries, but I subscribe to the belief that good judgment will usually trump most advice - especially when dealer opinion on what constitutes "investment grade knives" can be subjective.

We can all name our favorites, but rather relying on one dealer, I would recommend a concensus of opinions - and have the prospective buyer then use his or her brain. Don't get me wrong - there are dealers whose opinions I respect and would recommend in a heartbeat - but this issue of "investment grade knives" goes beyond mere dealer opinion, IMHO.

 

[RogerP]

Hi Roger-

The operative phrases here have to do with a person making up their own mind on an investment grade knife. In giving this advice, I am figuring the advice is being given to someone less familiar with what they are considering buying.

You are probably right that I really should not be dismissing ALL dealers' commentaries, but I subscribe to the belief that good judgment will usually trump most advice - especially when dealer opinion on what constitutes "investment grade knives" can be subjective.

We can all name our favorites, but rather relying on one dealer, I would recommend a concensus of opinions - and have the prospective buyer then user his or her brain. Don't get me wrong - there are dealers whose opinions I respect and would recommend in a heartbeat - but this issue of "investment grade knives" goes beyond mere dealer opinion, IMHO.

Hi Bob,

I don't really disagree with very much of that. Unless you are going to let someone else make the decision for you, then your own judgment - good or bad - will ultimately be the determining factor.

Seeking advice and information from multiple sources, as well as carefully considering validity of each of those sources, is also sound advice.

But I don't find dealers' opinions on the investment aspect to be especially subjective as compared with any other likely source. And they are likely to have more actual experience and first hand knowledge than most other sources.

Roger

 

[betzner]

Hi Bob,


But I don't find dealers' opinions on the investment aspect to be especially subjective as compared with any other likely source. And they are likely to have more actual experience and first hand knowledge than most other sources.

Roger

Roger, the category "investment grade" is, I suppose, where I am having difficulty. There a handful that everyone might agree on. But some are "investment grade" today, "investment de-graded" tomorrow.

I think we are in general agreement. But I still come back to dealer subjectivity on what each dealer feels are "investment grade knives". My definition, many dealers' definitions and your definition are probably close, but just not close enough for me to be comfortable with making recommendations, other than to myself.

EDIT: At least we are working a major miracle here by not getting off subject, as happens so often!

 

[Lorien]

I'm curious about the timeframe aspect of knives as investments.
Like, what's a short term good investment vs. a long term good investment. They may not be the same things at all, for example, decades ago buying a Moran may not have been much of a good short term investment, but over many years the initial sum paid balloons making it a great long term investment.
I think the term 'investment grade' means something like, a knife not made specifically to be used, and built to extremely high tolerances with high end materials. Whether it actually is a solid investment in that its value increases is something that only the passage of time can dictate.
I'm just thinking out loud here. Like that's something new