Is 1084 considered a "beginners steel" or is it "custom knife" worthy?

[Fred.Rowe]

A crappy blade can be made from complex steels, a great knife can be made from more basic steels. Knowing the steel, your working with, is the key to success.

 

[rustyrazor]

well said Fred.

 

[FullyTorque]

If you watch the Custom & Handmade Forum and Makers Gallery you will occasionally see some very nice knives made in 1084.

 

[DukeHarley]

Last I heard, the end of March.

Hope so! I have 20" left that's it!

jay

 

[shqxk]

1084 works well for beginners because it heat treats easily... That's it. It is not inferior, it is perfect... the "perfect eutectoid".

I always wonder how you rated 1084 against 80crv2 since its both has quite similar carbon content.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I always wonder how you rated 1084 against 80crv2 since its both has quite similar carbon content.

I haven't noticed any significant edge holding differences between the two. It makes sense that 80crv2 would make a tougher blade but I haven't pushed my testing to destruction.... yet

 

[AVigil]

This forum is part to blame for 1084 getting the wrap as a "beginner steel" and we need to correct that perception.

1084 is great steel.

 

[jdm61]

Compared to some other steels, it is a very good beginner steel. The misconception may be that it is not a good "pro" steel. The fact of the matter is that back when it was still available, people used it a LOT. Check out the knives that came out of Arkansas in the 80's and 90's and see how many of them were made from 1084. The reason that we have 1084 from Aldo today is that people missed having it. Same with W2.

This forum is part to blame for 1084 getting the wrap as a "beginner steel" and we need to correct that perception.

1084 is great steel.

 

[NickWheeler]

IMHO, 1084 shouldn't be labeled as a "beginner's steel." It can be maximized with stuff like digital temperature controls and commercial quenchants. It's just that it can be pretty successfully heat treated without high tech equipment. I think that has turned into a bit of a slippery slope though, as many folks have been getting the idea they can make a world class blade from it with a BIC lighter and some ransid cooking oil.

IMHO, it can be as good as the effort you put into it... Of course there are steels with more alloying elements that will outperform 1084, but that's getting really particular about it.

These were done in 1084.

 

[Mike Fennessy]

If every knife was made out of 1084, the world would be full of much MUCH better knives than it is now.

I'd take a properly (hell, however treated) 1084 blade than anything at a big box or sports store, without a doubt.

As far as comparing it to high end steel, I think it comes down to the maker, or more accurately, the heattreater.

I love high end stainless steel but use a 1084 every day.

 

[BonhamBlades]

I have customers request me to use 1084 all the time. It is a great steel, easy to work, gets extremely sharp, and sharpens easily.

 

[elementfe]

The Count said it first: 1084 combined usually with 15n20 is what some of the most stunningly beautiful and expensive knives on the planet were made from.
Interesting that there's another thread going about whether 15n20 is a good standalone knife steel

 

[james terrio]

I generally use more complex alloys, for various reasons. But as so many others have said, if 1084 was the only steel I could ever use for cutting implements, that would be just fine. It's really tough, it can get very hard, it takes a lovely crisp scary-sharp edge, you can etch it or develop a hamon in it, you can draw back the temper on the spine or tang if you want, you can pattern-weld it with lots of other cool alloys... It just plain works.

1084 works well for beginners because it heat treats easily... That's it. It is not inferior, it is perfect... the "perfect eutectoid".

There's a lot to think about, and study on, in Rick's deceptively-simple statement. :thumbup: If a person poo-poo's 1084 and doesn't understand why/how it can work so well, I have serious misgivings about whether or not they really understand steel and HT at all.

The chemistry is indeed, perfect... everything you really need, nothing you don't (including overly-high carbon levels that lead to all sorts of complications with HT protocols and internal structure). What's not in Aldo's 1084 (contaminants) helps a lot too. If an ancient Viking or Japanese bladesmith had the supply of clean, reliable steel that we do, they would be very, very happy... and very wealthy.




Having said all that, perception plays a big role in actually selling knives today. Even in the same class of simple carbon steels, some alloys are "sexy" and some just aren't. That seems dumb as a bucket of sand to many of us, but it's true.

For instance, in all honesty, I can barely tell the difference between the knives I make out of O1 and the ones I make out of 52100. In fact, for reasons I do not understand, 1084 actually outperforms both O1 and 52100 in corrosion-resistance, while holding quite steady with them in every other sort of knife-related testing.

All three alloys make great knives, and 52100 and 1084 are actually a good deal less expensive than O1, so who cares? ... but 52100 knives sell better and command higher prices than the other two - because of "hype" and the fact that people know it's also used to make ball bearings (all of which "perception" comes almost entirely from one maker/author). *shrug*


Incidentally, I'll bet you lunch that in a blind challenge with blades having the same exact dimensions and hardness, almost none of our clients and very few makers could tell 1084 from O1 from 52100 from 1095 from W2 from L6 when it comes to basic general performance and durability.

 

[Rick Marchand]

Incidentally, I'll bet you lunch that in a blind challenge with blades having the same exact dimensions and hardness, almost none of our clients and very few makers could tell 1084 from O1 from 52100 from 1095 from W2 from L6 when it comes to basic general performance and durability.

And I'll tag that bet with a beer.

1095 is my nemesis when it comes to rusting.

 

[kvehikite]

Incidentally, I'll bet you lunch that in a blind challenge with blades having the same exact dimensions and hardness, almost none of our clients and very few makers could tell 1084 from O1 from 52100 from 1095 from W2 from L6 when it comes to basic general performance and durability. [/QUOTE]

That is the very thought that goes through my head everytime I hear people talk blade steel.

 

[james terrio]

1095 is my nemesis when it comes to rusting.

I have never understood why 1095 is used so much in custom/handmade knives... too much carbon, making it a pain to HT properly, not enough of anything else to really help very much. I have no clue how 1095 became the go-to carbon steel many decades ago... O1 was developed not long after, and clearly outpaces it for actual powered tooling applications. (you can still buy O1 planer blades, for instance... you're not gonna find that stuff made of 1095). It's still hugely popular and "traditional" in the knife biz, though.

I do like 1095CV/"CarbonV" as has been used by Ka-Bar and Case and Camillus back in the day, among others... a little splash of chrome and vanadium helps even everything out in HT and helps keep grain structure tight. But A) I wish those companies would run it harder (at least 58Rc instead of somewhere between maybe 54 and 56 if you're lucky...) and B) they could achieve the same or better end result/performance by using 1084 and actually save money (assuming they could talk a mill into making enough 1084 to make it worth while)...

 

[james terrio]

So here's the run-down, as I see it...

All these low-alloy simple steels can make great knives. Including 1084 (we all agree on that... most of us have actually proven it).

Buyers don't usually give a hoot about all the technical stuff that we love to discuss and fret about.

Buyers like to buy what's hot and sexy and gets a lot of press. Especially if it seems rare and exotic.

So if you want to sell a lot of knives, use 52100 or W2. They're both excellent steels, there's no question in my mind about that... they just also happen to be "sexy".

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I have never understood why 1095 is used so much in custom/handmade knives...

Hamon.

 

[james terrio]

Hamon.

I get that. I really, adamantly don't care about hamons, but I get it. I may be the only person on the planet who actually gets annoyed by hamons. That's a whole different topic.

So why are so many custom/handmade knives without hamons made of 1095?

That's a rhetorical question; there's no need to actually answer it.

 

[Maelstrom78]

I think if Aldo got a supply of .09-.10 1080 it would be a good seller for kitchen knives for 2 brick forge guys like me without a HT oven.