Is a knife as important as we would like to think?

[Joben]

Another thread about survival kit that would be allowed on a plane got me thinking...do you really need a knife? I can see a line of argument that says if you can only have ONE piece of equipment it should probably be a knife. And you would really need one if you plan to be Robinson Crusoe or Tarzan. I get that.

But when it comes to real world practicality, like lost hiker, or stranded motorist type scenarios do you need a knife?

I can imagine someone dying from exposure because they were inadequately dressed, or did not have a fire starter* or even dying of dehydration because they didn't have a water container.

But how would not having a knife directly result in death? How likely do you think this scenario is?

*Do not say with a knife you can make a bow-drill or something. (a) We know, (b) saying you carry a knife to avoid having to carry a half ounce bic is just silly.
While I'm at it Lets pre-empt another 2 dozen replies: I'd rather have one then not too. I think we all would.

 

[neeman]

Preaching to the Choir?
This is the Willderness and Survival Skills forum.

Without a cool head, you have nothing.
Then skills
Then equipment

What equipment?
It depends on our scenarios!
Do I need 3 liters of water in the winter mountains or a fire starter in a summer desert?

 

[jackknife]

Preaching to the Choir?
This is the Willderness and Survival Skills forum.

Without a cool head, you have nothing.
Then skills
Then equipment

What equipment?
It depends on our scenarios!
Do I need 3 liters of water in the winter mountains or a fire starter in a summer desert?

:thumbup::thumbup:

No, a knife is not that important, except on a knife based forum. On a forum like this, a knife is more a cult worship item than a piece of gear to be used. In a pinch, any sharp cutting edge will do. Heck, the old mountain men used the Green River knives by the John Russell company, that were just a glorified kitchen knife. Cody Lundin uses a 10 dollar mora. And somehow our very distant ancestors used flint blades and survived. Having a friend that is into knapping in a big way, I've been impressed as hell at what can be done. Amazing as it seems to the cult faithful, early man survived without batoning.

A cutting tool is needed, but not nearly to the extent that the obsessed would think. Cleaning fish and small game can be done with a almost any pocket knife, and shelter can be made with the same. More important than a knife is fire and shelter. A fire steel and a plastic tarp will do more good than a knife. One of those disposable plastic drop cloths they sell in the paint department of Walmart for 1.99 is about the size of a paper back novel, and will make a better shelter in 10 minutes than the best 400 dollar custom chopper can do in an hour.

It's the same in any obsession. Car nuts will think you have to have at least a Porshe, while the next guy commutes to his job day in and day out in a Honda and is happy. The Harley guy thinks that his is the only motorcycle worth riding, while the young guys with the crotch rocket sneers at the slow old mans bike. Each to their own. But affictionado's tend to loose sight of reality when obsession clouds their view. Same with any hobby.

Going off in the boonies, there's stuff to always have, and a knife is one of them. But it's not the end all be all. There's stuff just as, if not more important. And with a little practice, you can make enough of a knife to get by.

Carl.

 

[Myal]

never been a lost hiker

I have had breakdowns tho , blew a radiator hose , used my knife to unscrew the clamp , cut the blow out off ( was near the thermostat housing ) retighten the clamp ...
now , as a stranded motorist , yeah I wouldnt need a knife , I had one tho , and wasnt a stranded motorist thanks to having it

I also did my lolly at the kids for taking my toolbox out of the car and not returning it

used a multi tool to change a set of points ( wooden cam lifter thing broke off and the wasnt opening and closing ) Used the knife to take a piece of a mats cigarete box to set the points .

used a pair of pliers and fencing wire and a couple lumps of wood to hold a diesel injector pump in more or less place to limp home 40km or so

knife was used to cut the electrician tape to that bandaged my finger after I took a few lumps out with the pliers slipping trying to get some decent tension on the wire to hold it all together

been a few times when Id have been a stranded motorist if I didnt have a knife and some preparations in the car

reminds me of a major breakdown we had that meant I left the girls and the kids with the car , walked back to town ( was a fair way 30 km or so I think ) bought the parts I needed and hiked back ... I used a knife to poke and lift stuff but the girls did too , they set up a shelter , fed the kids etc all made easier having a knife and other stuff in easy reach , we were there for a night and large parts of 2 days before I got that piece of junk going again

I cannot speak for everyone , only for myself , I need a knife

 

[neeman]

Myal,
You have first described a cool head to find the problem based on a skill set of how to fix a car.
Without those skills, the knife would be useless

 

[Joezilla]

But how would not having a knife directly result in death? How likely do you think this scenario is?

If you are talking in the Lawrence Gonzalez Deep Survival Sense, then it depends on which situation. But I sure would rather have one then not.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

:thumbup::thumbup:

No, a knife is not that important, except on a knife based forum. On a forum like this, a knife is more a cult worship item than a piece of gear to be used. In a pinch, any sharp cutting edge will do. Heck, the old mountain men used the Green River knives by the John Russell company, that were just a glorified kitchen knife. Cody Lundin uses a 10 dollar mora. And somehow our very distant ancestors used flint blades and survived. Having a friend that is into knapping in a big way, I've been impressed as hell at what can be done. Amazing as it seems to the cult faithful, early man survived without batoning.

A cutting tool is needed, but not nearly to the extent that the obsessed would think. Cleaning fish and small game can be done with a almost any pocket knife, and shelter can be made with the same. More important than a knife is fire and shelter. A fire steel and a plastic tarp will do more good than a knife. One of those disposable plastic drop cloths they sell in the paint department of Walmart for 1.99 is about the size of a paper back novel, and will make a better shelter in 10 minutes than the best 400 dollar custom chopper can do in an hour.

It's the same in any obsession. Car nuts will think you have to have at least a Porshe, while the next guy commutes to his job day in and day out in a Honda and is happy. The Harley guy thinks that his is the only motorcycle worth riding, while the young guys with the crotch rocket sneers at the slow old mans bike. Each to their own. But affictionado's tend to loose sight of reality when obsession clouds their view. Same with any hobby.

Going off in the boonies, there's stuff to always have, and a knife is one of them. But it's not the end all be all. There's stuff just as, if not more important. And with a little practice, you can make enough of a knife to get by.

Carl.

The question wasn't do you need a big fancy knife, which is obviously "no."

But you say a knife is not important, then go on to explain various ways they are important?

I think you are off on a private tangent that is hard to follow.

 

[NothingCoherent]

I'd take a tarp over a knife any day.

Or alternatively, an axe. When I hike / camp / backpack, my knife doesn't see nearly as much use as my axe does. It makes fire and shelter ten times faster than any knife I've seen. And I can gut a trout with an axe no problem. What do I need my knife for, again?

I still would rather have the tarp though. I'm sure anyone else in the pacific northwest will agree. Being wet is never fun.

 

[ROCK6]

Sure, we all agree the knife is one of the most important tools one can have on their person, but I don't think a knife is going to be a necessity in the majority of "survival" situations. Water and shelter are probably the top two unless there's a severe injury where prescription medication and a good first aid kit would be extremely important. Depending on the season/weather, fire can often join the top two as well.

As mentioned, keeping a cool head, having practiced skills and knowledge is more important than anything else...lastly comes equipment which will always be dependent on the activity, season and weather. I know there are a ton of analogies for us to justify the necessity of a knife..."better to have and not need than need and not have"; "a knife is like a spare tire...not always needed, but just prudent insurance"...etc. Skill and knowledge will allow most to improvise and mitigate the need for "equipment", such as knives, shelter, fire, navigation, etc.

Where knives and other equipment (shelter, water container/filter, fire starter, etc) become the advantage is to make tasks easier and save time. Building a debris shelter vice setting up a tarp is a good example of how equipment can save you a lot of time and effort...possibly a life-saver if the conditions are extremely bad. Efficiency is a major advantage in most situations…

ROCK6

 

[dartanyon]

A blade not only has practical uses ... it has the psychological comfort aspect also ... the "man blankie"
Let's not forget - shelter building, food procurement & fire construction ...

These days a life saver is an epirb or sat phone

 

[Bumppo]

No, a knife is not important. Being prepared is important. A knife is just a tool to assist a person through a survival situation that could make it easier.

The sharpest tool in a survival situation should be your mind. However, being a knife nut, After honing my mind, I like to also work with tools I can remove from their box.

 

[kgd]

As a species, we inhabit a range of environments that far exceed the physiological tolerances that we evolved to deal with. We are a tropical and social species by design and outside of that environment we require tools to survive.

Everything we have with us has its use and tool function. The clothing on our backs are tools developed to address our environments first and then serve a secondary function to address social status. Curiously, because many people now spend most of their time in controlled environments (buildings, to vehicles, back to buildings) in most cases the secondary function of clothing has taken prominence over the normal primary function. This is why ladies and Tonym wear high heels and lace underwear so often. In other words, the societal norm of avoiding uncontrolled outside weather elements in favor of controlled indoor elements has effectively replaced the tool functionality of clothing with habitat.

The same can be said with the knife and modern society and even to a large extent modern day backpacking. Many folks get along perfectly fine without a knife in their day to day lives. Many backpackers have such a versatility of tools at their disposal to cover shelter, warmth, cooking, mobility and navigation etc. that a knife is not essential or negligible to their basic needs.

You don't need a knife to survive, but you need tools. You need a manner of controlling your surroundings, reducing your exposure and procuring supplies such as food and water. A knife is versatile at creating other tools. Back to the OP, what is a bowdrill kit but just another tool to get fire and in functionality no different (apart from difficulty) than the bic lighter? What is the difference between a knife and sharpened stick for defense? One might be more effective than another, but they are both tools that serve the same purpose. Difference is that the knife can make both the sharpened stick and bowdrill kit and I can't make a bowdrill kit with just a stick.

One could presumably make their edge by knapping. That requires skill and appropriate materials. What is easily found (flint) in one area is rare in another. I can take you to the middle of my favorite prairie and just ask you to find a rock, let alone a rock of a certain type. Good luck! So we need many things, we need skills in how to use tools, we may need skills on how to make tools and in the latter case we need materials to make our tools. All these elements have to come together in a time frame that allows us to address our survival priorities.

The idea that a true survivor walks into the woods naked and lives the rest of their lives in peaceful bliss is non-existent. We use a multiplicity of tools and we rely on our culture to pass on the memes for how to use and create the tools we need. Whether the tool mix we have includes a knife depends entirely on the circumstances, how our training prepared us to meet those circumstances and whether we were ready for the situation when it happened. Give a guy a knife who doesn't know how to use one and they won't do much with it. However, a guy who really knows how to use one (and I'll exclude myself from that description) can do a whole lot with just one tool. The tool that makes tools from natural materials - that is what a knife is really about. If you also need to make the knife, then so be it, but can you do that? Oh, I know it can be done, I'm asking you yourself whether you could do it and create as effective a tool making device as the common butterknife in your kitchen drawer.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Short answer? No.
Nothing should ever be as "important as you think" item-wise, when it comes to survival.

The only thing that should be important is that you make it out alive.

If you place too much value in any one thing, if something happens and you don't have it, you're lost without it and apt to give up. A hopeless attitude will kill you just as fast as anything else.
When you start thinking: "Oh man, I can't do that without a knife!" then you're in trouble. The proper way to think is: "Okay, so how do I do that without a knife?" Bite the shit in two if you have to. A "Can-do" attitude is essential. "Can't" will get you killed.

Did you know you can lay a piece of rope on a rock, then bang at it with another rock and cut it in two?

Found that out once when I was a kid and didn't have a knife, but needed to cut some rope. It works by abrasion, the ends are frayed, but it works.

 

[tonym]

IMO for the average Joe and even for the more experienced the knife is not as important in a short survival situation. Most people can tuff out a few days with nothing and survive with a little know how.

I think the knife or any edged tool gains importance the longer you have to endure the elements, and the better skilled you are the more useful it becomes. In my kit, I like to carry items that serve more than 1 purpose. The edged tool in the right hands can make fire, purify water, strong shelter, signal, self defense, split wood, food procurement, cut things, etc.. An efficient cutting tool like a good knife or axe is not easily knapped out of a rock, not to mention Obsidian and Flint isn't that easy to find in all locations.

 

[tonym]

Did you know you can lay a piece of rope on a rock, then bang at it with another rock and cut it in two?

Found that out once when I was a kid and didn't have a knife, but needed to cut some rope. It works by abrasion, the ends are frayed, but it works.

Very cool, you can also cut rope with rope pretty efficiently.

 

[jaymeister99]

Most important is your training. Knowing first how to prevent a survival situation, and then what to do if you wind up in one is most important.

Here's my next shocker. KNIFE IS BEST IMO.

I know shelter, fire starter more important. But if you were preparing for a possible survival situation you would have these. But more likely if I wound up in a survival situation it would be when I would absolutely least expect it (since I always prepare for the possibility in the wild).

A knife is realistic, practical, and you can/would carry it in everyday situations. I don't stroll around with a tarp and magnesium.

Carrying a tarp, firestarter to me just isn't realistic in everyday life situations. A knife makes it a heck of a lot easier to create shelter, as well as start a fire, gut a fish, make a snare, you name. I know its not impossible to do these without a knife. But a hell of a lot more comforting if you have one.

 

[EMT_Lee]

Yes, it is very important. And, not just in a "survival" situation. A knife is a fundamental piece of outdoor equipment. Can you make do without one? Sure. But, that wasn't the question.

 

[RescueRiley]

as evidenced by 100,000 years of human habitation of the world before the invention of steel, I agree a knife is not essential for survival.. Folks survived een for 1000's of years even before the began knapping stone. So yes skills are first however it is naive to compare the skill sets of even the best among us to that of the primitive hunter gatherer.
Most of the napping folks do today occurs in front of the TV,
So while I could probably make a go of it without a blade.. I'd prefer to have one..
I have kit of several multi use items that I always bring when going into the woods. it is a light kit that serves me well, and have spent several days out with just that kit.
Like most peple here, a knife is one thing I don;t leave home without.
after all a cutting edge was the worlds first multi tool.

In answer to the question, with skill and a knife inadequate clothing or lack of a firestarter could be over come (difficult though it may be) even with a small belt knife it is possible to whip up a warm shelter, and produce a fire to warm the shelter and yourself, however none of this can be accomplished without the knowledge base.
why I would have a knife and not a ferro rod is beyond me since those 2 pieces of gear are foundations of my kit.. but that;s another story

 

[tonym]

Carrying a tarp, firestarter to me just isn't realistic in everyday life situations..

Hey Jay, I understand what you're saying but I have to respectfully dissagree on the firestarter. It's not hard at all to keep a lighter on your person everyday, and in a short term survival situation under the right circumstances will save your life allot quicker than a knife.

ie. you are hiking in the winter, misplace your step and slide down a hill into some freezing water. There is no freaking way I am going to pull myself out of icy water and have the dexterity to locate dry wood to make a friction fire, gather tinder, gather kindling, find a bow, unlace my boot, tie a freaking knott, carve a spindle, carve a hearth, burn in a hole, carve a notch, and well you get the picture. Carrying a lighter would be much, much more important than having a knife in that situation IMO.

As for being realistic, I have been carrying a lighter or some kind of firestarter everyday of my life since I started smoking at 13. Even when I quit a few times, I never left the house with out a lighter in my pocket.

 

[KEmSAT-Survival]

Very cool, you can also cut rope with rope pretty efficiently.

That's a new one on me. Would you be so kind as to share?

My guess is that you lay one piece on top of the other in a cross, stand on the top piece -- leaving a gap between your feet-- and saw with the one on bottom.

Close?