Is all 1075 "created equal" when it comes to hamon.

[kuraki]

Here's my 1075 after a quick etch in the middle of hand sanding 220.

 

[Willie71]

Actually Mr. Brewster, you are correct. If you want to get technical it is, in fact, 1076. The Manganese in the new batch that came in about a month ago is .36 Manganese. As for sizes, we have 3/16, 1/4 and 3/8 IN STOCK!!!Below is a picture of a Matt Venier piece made with the 1075. Matt is a bit of a "Hamon Freak" as you can see.

Gorgeous! That looks like a hybrid polish to me. Just clarifying for the newer guys as this won't be what you get with a ferric chloride etch.

 

[kuraki]

More like this?

What's the other process? Lemon juice?

 

[P.Brewster]

Actually Mr. Brewster, you are correct. If you want to get technical it is, in fact, 1076. The Manganese in the new batch that came in about a month ago is .36 Manganese. As for sizes, we have 3/16, 1/4 and 3/8 IN STOCK!!!Below is a picture of a Matt Venier piece made with the 1075. Matt is a bit of a "Hamon Freak" as you can see.

Yes! I know the low manganese is intentional/desirable. I had the opposite experience with some high-manganese 1075 that I bought earlier this year - it had to be declared as 1074 on the paperwork.

 

[Willie71]

More like this?

What's the other process? Lemon juice?

White vinegar and lemon juice. It takes a while to get the process sorted. The vinegar brings out the white, and the lemon juice darkens the hardened steel.

 

[kuraki]

Thanks Warren I'll give that a try tonight. Is the lemon juice and vinegar mixed, or used separately as you cycle etch-polish-etch?

I need to get my hands on some Flitz or something today. The polish I'm using is too aggressive I think. It pulls off nearly all the oxides in 2 strokes unless I use it exceedingly sparingly, and wipe it off before actually polishing with my cloth.

 

[Willie71]

Thanks Warren I'll give that a try tonight. Is the lemon juice and vinegar mixed, or used separately as you cycle etch-polish-etch?

My process is to soak in white vinegar three times to bring out the white for about 10 min each. Polish with 1500g powdered abrasives each time. Then use heated lemon juice with a q-tip to rub the lemon juice where it's needed. Use a couple drops of dish soap in both the vinegar and lemon juice. Again polish between each etch. 6-12 cycles is my normal. I sometimes go back to vinegar if I want to bring more white out as I'm going. My last etch is always lemon juice though.

 

[Willie71]

Thanks Warren I'll give that a try tonight. Is the lemon juice and vinegar mixed, or used separately as you cycle etch-polish-etch?

I need to get my hands on some Flitz or something today. The polish I'm using is too aggressive I think. It pulls off nearly all the oxides in 2 strokes unless I use it exceedingly sparingly, and wipe it off before actually polishing with my cloth.

I don't use flitz. I have 1500g rock polishing compound. It's a light grey colour. I can't remember what the abrasive actually is, but it's easy to find on eBay. Each cycle, most of the oxides come off, but there is a subtle colour change in the different steel conditions with each cycle. Maybe I'll do a WIP on the next one I do. I'm no expert, but my results are more likely for the newer guys than what the experts get, so there should be less disappointment.

If people are interested in the difference in etch/polish techniques, look at Don Hansen III hamon, ferric chloride, then look at Nick Wheeler, or Don Fogg, which is the hybrid polish.

 

[Salem Straub]

If you do some searching around the forums, you'll see where Nick Wheeler and even myself have written a lot about it in the past. Hybrid polishing, that is.
Nick uses vinegar, I like lemon juice. Either way, as Warren states above, a little dish soap as a surfactant helps, and it should be kept warm. I do the finish etch/polish in the kitchen, standing by a little pan on low heat with my lemon juice in it, then rinse and scrub over the sink. Why do I prefer lemon juice? Works as good or even a bit whiter than vinegar, and does not reek. As Nick discovered a while back, fresh squeezed lemon juice works hands down better than Realemon or other "juice" you can buy bottled.

The abrasive is 1500 grit silicon carbide rock polish, can be bought cheaply on Ebay, for a lifetime supply. I use it with little squares of craft felt as a scrubby pad, the same type of felt I use to rub on the lemon juice. The grit powder can be used as a slurry with oil, or with water. Either works, both have their merits, oil holds it better but is messier.

To do the etch from start to finish with vinegar or lemon juice takes a long time, and many cycles. What I've found is that the process can be sped up a lot, by first doing a couple or three etch cycles in ferric chloride for depth. Once you've got a good black line established, then either lightly sand it off with 1500 paper and begin with lemon juice cycles, or leave the black line on there, Flitz it back hard, rock polish scrub, then go to lemon juice. The former way will give you an unadulterated white habuchi, the second way will to a greater or lesser degree leave some of the blackness to the line. Remember about Flitz, that it leaves a thin "protective film" on metal after polish, and that needs to be removed before etching again, especially when going to lemon juice. That's the one thing that bugs me about it.

It all depends on what you're going for, a hamon that can be seen from across the room and will be more durable, say for a user chef knife, or a hamon that doesn't photograph well with the rest of the knife, can't be seen well from a distance, but is mind blowing and wispy/cloudy/smoky in the hand. A balance can be achieved, at the expense of either extreme, by leaving some of the ferric black when going into finishing with lemon juice.

This is just a primer, details about number of cycles and what to look for/when to stop (usually for me, that's when I'm cross-eyed) can be found by further research.

Just so you know I'm not full of crap, here's some that were done in lemon juice after ferric, although the steel is all Don Hanson W2, and the finish is all white. The difficulty of photographing white hamon on recurve blades pretty much made me quit doing them for a while.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

...Salem, none of your photos are showing up. Does that mean you're full of crap?

 

[Willie71]

Salem, I've actually rubbed lemon slices on the blade. It works well. :thumbup:

Thanks for adding your take. I feel odd giving advice on something I'm still learning on. I think I've got the basics, but the learning curve never stops. Your pics aren't working for me.

 

[Salem Straub]

Oh man, that is frustrating. I learned a trick a while back to make Google+ still hotlink OK to the forum, looks like it's not working now.
Wrangling photos recently got more laborious, since Google dialed their (free) services back in the image-hosting department.
I would rather everyone assume (possibly correctly) that I'm full of crap, than have to go host those images elsewhere so I can re-link them! I gotta get to work...

 

[kuraki]

Thanks Salem, I've read a number of threads and documents on the subject but your "primer" really ties together what was missing for me in between the lines. I have to go back to hard back sanding on that blade anyway and was really just experimenting last night with what I had on hand. Flitz sounds the same as what I've already got, leaving behind a silicon residue.

I actually discovered something neat about that last night, that I doubt I can repeat but I'm going to try. Knowing that polish leaves something of a residual film, I splashed some alcohol on it to remove it, but did a poor job. Dunked in the diluted FC for 15 seconds and when it came out I had a fine spiderweb etch across the whole blade that was nothing like what I was looking for but really cool all the same. I'll see if I can duplicate it on a no-hamon blade.

I've had zero luck with linking from Google photos. SLI.mg is where to be.

 

[Willie71]

Oh man, that is frustrating. I learned a trick a while back to make Google+ still hotlink OK to the forum, looks like it's not working now.
Wrangling photos recently got more laborious, since Google dialed their (free) services back in the image-hosting department.
I would rather everyone assume (possibly correctly) that I'm full of crap, than have to go host those images elsewhere so I can re-link them! I gotta get to work...

Salem, we know you aren't full of crap. You do some of the finest hamon etching I'm aware of. :thumbup:

 

[Willie71]

This is a vinegar and lemon juice hybrid polish. I only went to 800g as this was a user. There is a lot more potential in this blade, but for a user that will patina, the extra work seems pointless.

[/url]image by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

This one was clayless, same process:

[/url]image by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

Clayless kitchen knife, same process:

[/url]IMG_5926 by Wjkrywko, on Flickr[/IMG]

 

[Josh Rider]

Thanks for the pics Warren, I did research a LOT of threads by Nick Wheeler, Salem, and yourself. As well as trial and error on my own. I preferred the flitz to the other metal pastes I tried. I also used 1500 grit powdered abrasive. As I read your methods I realize where I was getting sub-par results. I have not tried fresh lemon, only 2 different types of the bottled stuff. I was also polishing the entire blade and not dividing the etched steel, hamon, and ashi.
Thanks to all of you guys that put your knowledge out there, it's greatly appreciated. I can't even imagine how long (if ever) it would take to do this on my own.

 

[kuraki]

Oh man, that is frustrating. I learned a trick a while back to make Google+ still hotlink OK to the forum, looks like it's not working now.
Wrangling photos recently got more laborious, since Google dialed their (free) services back in the image-hosting department.
I would rather everyone assume (possibly correctly) that I'm full of crap, than have to go host those images elsewhere so I can re-link them! I gotta get to work...

Weird. I see your pics on my phone but not at my desktop.

Beautiful work btw.

 

[Maelstrom78]

That must be some kind of joke.



Everything is served with cheese.

I'm from Wisconsin originally and that gave me a chuckle.

 

[Willie71]

Thanks for the pics Warren, I did research a LOT of threads by Nick Wheeler, Salem, and yourself. As well as trial and error on my own. I preferred the flitz to the other metal pastes I tried. I also used 1500 grit powdered abrasive. As I read your methods I realize where I was getting sub-par results. I have not tried fresh lemon, only 2 different types of the bottled stuff. I was also polishing the entire blade and not dividing the etched steel, hamon, and ashi.
Thanks to all of you guys that put your knowledge out there, it's greatly appreciated. I can't even imagine how long (if ever) it would take to do this on my own.

There is no right way to do this. I tried some of Nick Wheeler's process, and it didn't work as well for me, and I found my own process that works. What I do will not be good for a $10,000 sword, but for users, it gets pretty good results. I need to make a light box, because my pics suck. It looks like there are scratches all over in odd directions, but you can't see that under magnification by eye. He camera plays tricks. I microwave the lemon juice (from the bottle) to nearly boiling, with dish soap in it. When it cools, it loses its effect. I need to get a dedicated small pot for this.

I'm going to take pics etch by etch on a knife I'm working on right now. It's a water quenched W2 kitchen knife. At 220g, I can see some nice activity. I'll try to help us newbies to get a platform to work and experiment from. I'll start a new thread when I start etching, likely this weekend, if there are no work emergencies.

Warren

 

[Salem Straub]

That bottom clayless knife is cool! That hitatsura hamon is just begging for a vivid polish...