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Is Case being influenced by GEC?
- Thread starter btmccutcheon
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Tony is very modest but he's had an enormous influence on knife making. He has even given his patterns to many custom knife makers--there's no greater influence than that! His collaboration with Case has influenced their production knives directly. Some like the collaboration knives are EDM wire cut from his patterns as closely as possible... even using bushings for each pivot. Some like the sowbelly are punched out using Tony's design. And some are uncredited like the addition of a Wharncliffe blade to 6207.
Again, Tony is very modest but the addition of the Wharncliffe blade to a trapper is not based on an old pattern. It could be partially based on folks reshaping the spey blades on a trapper. But Tony definitely led the way in this change to production knives long before GEC was even around. Also Tony's "Tribal Spear" or "Zulu Spear" may have elements from old knives but it is an original pattern. The blade shape was created independently from Schrade but given the same name because of the similarity in blade shape. The old knives from Schrade were a completely different pattern. Tony's pattern was directly copied in a SFO made by GEC and there can be no mistake that it is a copy of Tony's original work, not an old pattern. And some folks immediately called for copying other knives made by Tony and Case. I hope in the future, reproductions of his work are not made with out permission. GEC has plenty of old time patterns to keep them busy. They don't need to copy the work of others.
Let's not forget that WE are influencing GEC with our forum knives and other special factory orders from various dealers. GEC reproduced Tony's original Zulu pattern as ordered for a dealer. The production numbers were even similar to the special (previously) exclusive run done by Case.
We are fortunate to still have a few American cutlery companies around. We've almost lost Case and Queen a few times. We've lost many others. It's a very small cottage industry and I think that collectors should not take their contributions for granted.
Again, Tony is very modest but the addition of the Wharncliffe blade to a trapper is not based on an old pattern. It could be partially based on folks reshaping the spey blades on a trapper. But Tony definitely led the way in this change to production knives long before GEC was even around. Also Tony's "Tribal Spear" or "Zulu Spear" may have elements from old knives but it is an original pattern. The blade shape was created independently from Schrade but given the same name because of the similarity in blade shape. The old knives from Schrade were a completely different pattern. Tony's pattern was directly copied in a SFO made by GEC and there can be no mistake that it is a copy of Tony's original work, not an old pattern. And some folks immediately called for copying other knives made by Tony and Case. I hope in the future, reproductions of his work are not made with out permission. GEC has plenty of old time patterns to keep them busy. They don't need to copy the work of others.
Let's not forget that WE are influencing GEC with our forum knives and other special factory orders from various dealers. GEC reproduced Tony's original Zulu pattern as ordered for a dealer. The production numbers were even similar to the special (previously) exclusive run done by Case.
We are fortunate to still have a few American cutlery companies around. We've almost lost Case and Queen a few times. We've lost many others. It's a very small cottage industry and I think that collectors should not take their contributions for granted.
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All large companies that manufactures a product have R&D Departments as well as Marketing Research and Case is no different. One of the duties of these departments is to recognize trends within the market they are aligned with in order to capitalize on those trends. Even though I do not believe GEC is big enough to go head to head with Case but I do feel for sure that Case recognizes GEC as a trend setter within the knife community and manufacture products to take advantage of what they see to grab some of the market share. In fact I would be willing to bet that Case has someone reading this thread.
When I said that GEC was not big enough to go head to head with Case I meant no disrespect but I had never heard of GEC before I started reading BF however I had heard of Case all of my life and they are a household name. This by no way negates their interest in GEC's hottest sellers. As knife enthusiast we sometimes forget that we create a niche within the knife market and those brands we discuss on a daily basis are practically unknown to the general public who are the ones that account for the majority of knife purchases made. For example I believe ever time Case has ventured away from CV and Surgical Steel it was for knife enthusiast because a non knife person most likely doesn't know the difference between carbon and stainless steel and have no idea what CPM 154 or 1095 is let alone the heat treat of steels.
So yes I believe that Case probably are taking some cues from GEC but definitely not changing what they're doing because of it. They are simply taking advantage of a situation someone else created to increase revenue. Just the ramblings of an old man and my opinion.
When I said that GEC was not big enough to go head to head with Case I meant no disrespect but I had never heard of GEC before I started reading BF however I had heard of Case all of my life and they are a household name. This by no way negates their interest in GEC's hottest sellers. As knife enthusiast we sometimes forget that we create a niche within the knife market and those brands we discuss on a daily basis are practically unknown to the general public who are the ones that account for the majority of knife purchases made. For example I believe ever time Case has ventured away from CV and Surgical Steel it was for knife enthusiast because a non knife person most likely doesn't know the difference between carbon and stainless steel and have no idea what CPM 154 or 1095 is let alone the heat treat of steels.
So yes I believe that Case probably are taking some cues from GEC but definitely not changing what they're doing because of it. They are simply taking advantage of a situation someone else created to increase revenue. Just the ramblings of an old man and my opinion.
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Not trying to single out MrBitters or anyone else but this is an example of how we influence GEC production through SFOs. If I recall correctly, it was in 2012 that Case did Tony's Lanny's Clip as the collaboration knife.
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More than anything else, I see Case expanding its line with "new" patterns made in partnership with Tony Bose. I am not talking about the annual offering, but rather knives such as the sway back jack and the humpback stockman. These 'new' patterns typically have a price tag somewhat above the standard Case offerings of trappers and jack knives. And the fit and finish is also a step above that of their standard models.
So, to my mind, rather than copying GEC patterns, Case has recognized that there is a segment of the market they have not been tapping. They have recognized that there are a number of people willing to pay a bit more than the standard price in order to get something a bit special. Maybe they learned that from GEC, maybe not.
So, to my mind, rather than copying GEC patterns, Case has recognized that there is a segment of the market they have not been tapping. They have recognized that there are a number of people willing to pay a bit more than the standard price in order to get something a bit special. Maybe they learned that from GEC, maybe not.
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Frank, The Case humpback stockman is actually an old Case pattern. I don't know of any direct involvement with Tony Bose on that particular pattern. I was surprised and pleased that Case brought it back. (see quote below) It's good to see their lineup grow. The tear drop is a new addition to Case's regular production line that was designed by Tony.
As far as prices go, I think the market has changed some. Knife collectors must be doing well these days! I remember when buying an example of every handle option from a run of $100 knives would have been very uncommon rather than a regular occurrence. I think the growing number of traditional knife buyers who migrated from modern knives has also expanded this market. I suspect that some of the knives with "exotic steel" that Case made years ago would do much better now than back then. In particular the popularity of the barlow pattern has increased greatly and that "exotic steel" barlow would probably sell quick now.
If it weren't for Case, GEC might have never made a sodbuster, swayback, Wharncliffe trapper, Norfolk... among other patterns like the Zulu spear. As one example (of many), Case brought the sodbuster pattern to the USA around the late 60s - early 70s (I suspect they took the idea from Herder). Before Case made the pattern, it was not at all popular in the USA (though it was popular in other countries). I remember forum members clamoring for GEC to reproduce the pattern. The first of these knives from GEC were a small order for a dealer who responded to this demand.
As far as prices go, I think the market has changed some. Knife collectors must be doing well these days! I remember when buying an example of every handle option from a run of $100 knives would have been very uncommon rather than a regular occurrence. I think the growing number of traditional knife buyers who migrated from modern knives has also expanded this market. I suspect that some of the knives with "exotic steel" that Case made years ago would do much better now than back then. In particular the popularity of the barlow pattern has increased greatly and that "exotic steel" barlow would probably sell quick now.
If it weren't for Case, GEC might have never made a sodbuster, swayback, Wharncliffe trapper, Norfolk... among other patterns like the Zulu spear. As one example (of many), Case brought the sodbuster pattern to the USA around the late 60s - early 70s (I suspect they took the idea from Herder). Before Case made the pattern, it was not at all popular in the USA (though it was popular in other countries). I remember forum members clamoring for GEC to reproduce the pattern. The first of these knives from GEC were a small order for a dealer who responded to this demand.
The "new" 046 pattern is actually a revival of a seldom seen old Tested XX era pattern. Meet the Case Tested XX 23046 humpback cattleman, unfortunately somewhat over "cleaned", but still recognizable (I think the originals were 3 3/8" -- seems the new ones are 3 5/8"):
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Case is a large company and it wouldn't be surprising nor detrimental to me if they saw trends with smaller companies and followed. A small company is more adaptable and can try smaller batches while with Case, anything they do is going to be done in significant numbers.
One knife I wish would get copied is the Puma Pocket Hunter II. Besides being very fine looking with a nice spear blade, the saw/screwdriver/caplifter would go great on the Case Trapper. Unfortunately I can't bring myself to spend $160 on a knife that uses 440A on the blade. If anyone has the ear of someone at Case, heres a pic.
View attachment 666584
One knife I wish would get copied is the Puma Pocket Hunter II. Besides being very fine looking with a nice spear blade, the saw/screwdriver/caplifter would go great on the Case Trapper. Unfortunately I can't bring myself to spend $160 on a knife that uses 440A on the blade. If anyone has the ear of someone at Case, heres a pic.
View attachment 666584
Will Power
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I think it's symbiotic, beneficial for both actually.
GEC has certainly raised consciousness of Traditional knives, and I would argue, has raised the general QC bar too. GEC has the ability to offer small runs and revive some patterns ( Eureka/Talon, Dixie Stockman, Farmer's Jack, Small Sleeveboard, Large Teardrop, Toenail ?, Boy's Knife, Dogleg Jack etc) that I do not think CASE has done or at least offered for a long time.
GEC also offers all steel construction whereas CASE uses brass except on its very costly Collab knives which are stainless not carbon. GEC has generally superior bone dye to CASE, they could copy some dark red with pleasure! Vastly superior quality Stag and Ebony too, but then, they should, they cost a lot more!
CASE has clearly noticed there is an increased interest in quality Traditionals and not just massive runs of themed knives or knives with bizarre and garish handles to 'collect' Its recent Trapper with a beer opener is clearly a nod in GEC's direction, the 'trend' for openers on all sorts of knives has become popular (even though less and less drink is in bottles or with crown tops!) CASE offers a decent knife that's frequently available and at a reasonable price. GEC can't or won't be able to do that.
CASE's Humpback is an interesting revival and many of its knives have sunk-joints, which GEC has not been so good at. I suspect the Humpback revival was influenced/facilitated by the Norfolk Collab knife. Similar size, cut outs, special bushing and sunk-joints. So too is CASE better placed to offer credible Small and Medium Stockman, the GEC efforts are big or rather heavy in the pocket.
Maybe there isn't anything truly new, but it's HOW you do it. Both companies have their distinct identities and as I said, I feel they are actually beneficial to each other by swelling the pool of interest in user and collector Traditional knives and Traditionals not being relegated to some quaint, freakish grandpa knife status.
Bizarre relics used only out of eccentricity or by museum heads.
GEC has certainly raised consciousness of Traditional knives, and I would argue, has raised the general QC bar too. GEC has the ability to offer small runs and revive some patterns ( Eureka/Talon, Dixie Stockman, Farmer's Jack, Small Sleeveboard, Large Teardrop, Toenail ?, Boy's Knife, Dogleg Jack etc) that I do not think CASE has done or at least offered for a long time.
GEC also offers all steel construction whereas CASE uses brass except on its very costly Collab knives which are stainless not carbon. GEC has generally superior bone dye to CASE, they could copy some dark red with pleasure! Vastly superior quality Stag and Ebony too, but then, they should, they cost a lot more!
CASE has clearly noticed there is an increased interest in quality Traditionals and not just massive runs of themed knives or knives with bizarre and garish handles to 'collect' Its recent Trapper with a beer opener is clearly a nod in GEC's direction, the 'trend' for openers on all sorts of knives has become popular (even though less and less drink is in bottles or with crown tops!) CASE offers a decent knife that's frequently available and at a reasonable price. GEC can't or won't be able to do that.
CASE's Humpback is an interesting revival and many of its knives have sunk-joints, which GEC has not been so good at. I suspect the Humpback revival was influenced/facilitated by the Norfolk Collab knife. Similar size, cut outs, special bushing and sunk-joints. So too is CASE better placed to offer credible Small and Medium Stockman, the GEC efforts are big or rather heavy in the pocket.
Maybe there isn't anything truly new, but it's HOW you do it. Both companies have their distinct identities and as I said, I feel they are actually beneficial to each other by swelling the pool of interest in user and collector Traditional knives and Traditionals not being relegated to some quaint, freakish grandpa knife status.
Bizarre relics used only out of eccentricity or by museum heads.
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A stockman is a very old pattern but it was never dead. Case has made stock knives for over 100 years. GEC made up the name "Dixie Stockman".
Whether or not it's been a long time may depend on perspective (some folks have only been collecting knives for a few months) but Case and Queen have made all of the knives on the list before GEC, except for the Eureka... I think Cargill and Fight'n Rooster made them but I'm not sure who else may have made them (besides the antiques and customs).
Actually, Case uses nickel silver liners on their Case Select line. GEC also uses brass on many of their knives... sometimes switching between them on different runs of the same pattern.
Could be. Long ago Case did make trappers with a screwdriver and can opener but not a combination screwdriver/bottle opener. It could also be trying to gain entry into the market for Swiss army type knives.
They're different dies but it is possible. Don't know.
GEC's 66 is pretty pocket friendly. I suspect we'll see more stock knives from GEC in years to come.
Bizarre relics used only out of eccentricity or by museum heads.
"Museum head" is not such a bad thing.
I find it odd that discussions with little or no factual basis (just guesses) are popular on the internet. But there's little interest in history which provides actual answers to the same questions.
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Anytime you have two great companies in competition expect great things. I look forward to what can be from both.
I do have one wish though. Green Micarta from Case, o how I wish for a Large two bladed Trapper in OD Micarta from Case. Until then I am saving for #14 Lick Creek Boys knife or Hayn' Helper Two-Blade OD Green Micarta for my son and me.
I do have one wish though. Green Micarta from Case, o how I wish for a Large two bladed Trapper in OD Micarta from Case. Until then I am saving for #14 Lick Creek Boys knife or Hayn' Helper Two-Blade OD Green Micarta for my son and me.
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best answer :thumbup:
If all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.
The addition of the Wharncliffe blade to Case's trapper can be partially attributed to Tony Bose. If I recall correctly, there's some discussion about it on the forum a long time ago. As jc57 said, their mini trapper line is BG (Before GEC). The Case Bose collaboration slimline trapper was even earlier in 1999.
It's interesting that this subject has come up several times but GEC has directly copied Case/Tony Bose without permission (even using Tony's name before removing it at his request) but that didn't get much of any discussion on the forum.
Any discussion of GEC copying of Bose designs is not really welcome on this forum.
However, I will tentatively wade into the waters.
The GEC Norfolk and Tribal Spear/Zulu are direct rip-offs of Case. They also chose patterns that Case will not release as regular production knives to make sure the market would be hot for the knives. Both GEC are sad versions of the original. Not that they are poorly made (well there is the swedge) but the brass liners, 1095 steel, giraffe bone (personally I've seen better bone and purple?)...not in the same league as the Case collaborations.
Sure the Tribal Spear/Zulu is a "special" run for a "different" company, but hey is it real or is it marketing?? I am pretty sure dealers and GEC have an excellent partnership, because it shows in the number of manchildren upset they can't get the "hot" knife they want. This fuels future demand for all GEC products.
But copying your competitors, as closely as legally possible, is a great tradition in the world of cutlery. As is selling mid-range product for high prices due to marketing skill...All this makes it truly "traditional knives"
Tilley Knife
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The zulu spear was actually a schrade design from the early 20th century, if I recall correctly. I'm sure someone on here can confirm that. These are traditional patterns and blade designs have been around for a century or more. Everyone is "ripping off" someone, LOL.
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But copying your competitors, as closely as legally possible, is a great tradition in the world of cutlery. As is selling mid-range product for high prices due to marketing skill...All this makes it truly "traditional knives"
Funny but there's a lot of truth to it
I explained the differences between the Schrade and Bose patterns (only the blade shape is similar, not the pattern) but it may be more clear from a photo comparison. GEC's reproduction of the Bose pattern should also be clear from the photos. There's no question that it was a reproduction. It was originally described as such.
Schrade
Case/Bose
Northwoods/GEC
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Thanks for the great picture comparison. I think it's pretty clear which is the more visual pleasing knife, irrespective of the premium materials used in the Case. It's also pretty clear the Case looks like custom or "mid-tech" quality and the GEC looks like a nice production knife.
If Case remains true to their pledge to collectors to not move the Case-Bose collaborations into regular production, GEC will have a nice little pattern to roll out every so often with no significant competition from Case.
If Case remains true to their pledge to collectors to not move the Case-Bose collaborations into regular production, GEC will have a nice little pattern to roll out every so often with no significant competition from Case.
Buzzbait
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I try never to agree with brownshoe, but when he's right, he's right. The GEC is a clear reproduction. And after handling two of the Norhtwood/GEC knives, not even a very inspired reproduction. I love my GEC's, but that collab was really quite lackluster, IMHO. Perfectly functional, but without the artistry that I've come to expect from GEC.
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Some of it is driven by the large Case vendors. The Corelon offerings by one and the Kirinite offerings by another which cannot be named. I wrote to case to ask for a Glow in the Dark Peanut and they directed me to that vendor since those knives are all made for that vendor.
So are the vendors following these trends? A variety of funky scale offerings are a great way to appeal to collectors and collector users like us.
So are the vendors following these trends? A variety of funky scale offerings are a great way to appeal to collectors and collector users like us.
silenthunterstudios
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Funny but there's a lot of truth to it
I explained the differences between the Schrade and Bose patterns (only the blade shape is similar, not the pattern) but it may be more clear from a photo comparison. GEC's reproduction of the Bose pattern should also be clear from the photos. There's no question that it was a reproduction. It was originally described as such.
Schrade
Case/Bose
Northwoods/GEC
That chestnut Zulu is gorgeous. I have an ebony that I carry every day, an antique bone and a Damascus molasses bone, in addition to an Oeser Zulu and a Doc T Zulu. I have no need for another Case Tribal Spear, but I'm looking for a stag model. Now you have me after the chestnut bone. I can't win. Heck, my Taber custom Zulu has a nicer jigged red bone handle than the Case, but I still want the Case version. I'll probably find one of those before the stag.
A knife company owner asked me if I had any idea why some GEC runs sell out in a few minutes. Low production runs, secondary market drive and well made knives, not to mention popular patterns. GEC has really gotten away from their overbuilt tanks equipped with finger guillotines from when they first hit the scene.
The Case knives I've seen over the past few months have had better fit and finish, not on par with GEC by any means but better. The CV models, Case Bose collaborations (regular line, comparing annual collaborations to GEC, no contest, annuals win) have always been considerably improved over the regular SS line.
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Sounds like you've got a nice group of Zulu Spears, silenthunterstudios. You'll have to direct your blame at Primble for that nice photo. My own photos aren't as good. Haha The Tribal spear is a really nice design and the blade shape is very versatile. It's one of my favorites from the collaboration knives along with Tony's Norfolk, Muskrat and Dogleg.
My own photos aren't as good. Haha The Tribal spear is a really nice design and the blade shape is very versatile. It's one of my favorites from the collaboration knives along with Tony's Norfolk, Muskrat and Dogleg.