Is Case being influenced by GEC?

[Will Power]

Out at my country-place, limited Internet.

Even I am aware Jake, that that the Stockman is an old pattern and has never died out...I was referring to their REVIVAL of the Humpback Stockman about 6 years ago. Similarly, yes the Dixie is a name, for a very different 3 blade Stockman Knife. One that contains one of the most interesting assortment of blades suiting the frame absolutely. Some purists may rise a cry of execration that 'it's never been done before ergo it is not Traditional' but that's merely facile. Yes I also know that Queen and others have made Teardrops, I've got a handful of them, the Queen Farmers Jacks are in a very different league from the GEC/SFO ones and maybe other companies have made the other patterns too. But are we not talking about GEC and CASE here not everybody else?

I am not an American so I may often be at a disadvantage in certain areas of American cutlery but I feel you may have skimmed my post and not read it carefully. A long time is obviously a question of perception, I've been interested in knives for 50 years, perhaps that is an insufficient apprenticeship In many ways it is, as we hopefully gain insight all the time. As for my remarks about Museum Heads well I find it exciting that Traditional knives are enjoyed by a wide range of nationalities, ages, walks of life and it is because GEC and other manufacturers seem to be producing knives that spark interest. The Internet is of course, the great enabler here for buying and discussing. History does not provide the answers, it raises further speculations about received wisdom, together with those who wrote the history of a given era/entity - at least, that is what I gleaned from my study of Modern History at the University of Oxford....

I return to my theme that the relationship between these two companies is symbiotic, I see it to be this. I also assert that GEC's quality is generally remarkable, this is when compared to its fellow Traditional manufacturers, they may take note of this as well. GEC produced its version of the Teardrop 85 in 2011 as a Forum Knife and then with subsequent different variants. CASE released a T.Bose inspired Teardrop some years later but this is a very different knife in scale, blade and execution, both fine knives in their different right.

brownshoe I fail to understand your assertion that the GEC Norfolk is " a direct rip-off of Case" ??? You've owned both I assume? They are entirely different interpretations, the Northwoods version is far smaller, has a long narrow Wharncliffe and slant lined NS bolsters with carbon/brass. It also comes as a 3 blade version so it is in no way comparable to the Collab knife from weight, size. appearance or materials. Well, at least GEC's Ebony looks like Ebony rather than CASE's dried up looking scales.. You might as well say that Cattle Knives coming from Queen et al. are direct copies of the CASE/Bose knife from last year. Or that the CASE/Bose Norfolk is a rip-off of Rodgers' patterns in the c19th

Regards, Will

 

[supratentorial]

Will, That's a lot of stuff to go through and it may take me a couple of replies as I find time.

I return to my theme that the relationship between these two companies is symbiotic, I see it to be this.

I think that Northwoods/GEC's copy of the Case/Bose Tribal Spear was bad for Case, bad for custom knife makers, and bad for the Bladeforums community. Aside from this example, which I accept as a mistake as long as it's not repeated, you might propose that Case and GEC are "symbiotic". Both companies benefit from the promotion of traditional knives. From a simple business perspective competition is good for the consumer, not necessarily for business though. I don't have access to either company's financial records.

GEC produced its version of the Teardrop 85 in 2011 as a Forum Knife and then with subsequent different variants. CASE released a T.Bose inspired Teardrop some years later but this is a very different knife in scale, blade and execution, both fine knives in their different right.

Off the top of my head, I had thought the Case Bose Tear drop was an adaption of a Quill knife. I don't know how long Tony has been making the pattern. But Tony has been making knives a long time. Longer than he's collaborated with Case. And longer than GEC has been in business. I don't see much of a similarity between the knives and you have also noted differences.

The GEC/Northwoods copy of the Case/Bose Tribal Spear is obvious by comparison.... or even without comparison. Northwoods described the knife as such. It doesn't get any more clear cut. Yet it's ignored or denied or discounted in this topic.

...yes the Dixie is a name, for a very different 3 blade Stockman Knife. One that contains one of the most interesting assortment of blades suiting the frame absolutely. Some purists may rise a cry of execration that 'it's never been done before ergo it is not Traditional' but that's merely facile.

I don't see the 82 as a new pattern or a rebirthed old pattern. It's not much different than the stock knives made by Queen. In particular, I'd compare the 82 to the Queen made jumbo stock knives for "Case Classics" (which was for Parker, not Case) and Moore Maker... maybe closest to the Moore Maker. I've previously owned both knives and have compared them directly. The 82 is skinnier and there are some slight differences in the blades. They are very similar though. I wonder if Bill was also involved with the design of the Moore Maker when he was at Queen.

Queen/Moore Maker
https://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/n-arxs...0/MMML01J5304__73574.1380586208.1280.1280.JPG

GEC 82
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/QO0qW_g7n8M/hqdefault.jpg

A long time is obviously a question of perception, I've been interested in knives for 50 years, perhaps that is an insufficient apprenticeship

My comment wasn't intended to be directed at you at all. I meant it's a matter of perspective and the forum has a wide audience. I should have just left it out since it wasn't important.

History does not provide the answers, it raises further speculations about received wisdom, together with those who wrote the history of a given era/entity - at least, that is what I gleaned from my study of Modern History at the University of Oxford....

History does provide answers. For example, we know that World War II happened. It's a historical fact. A good historian will be cautious to avoid bias and use good sources. Interpretation and opinion are different.

 

[kamagong]

The GEC Norfolk and Tribal Spear/Zulu are direct rip-offs of Case.

brownshoe I fail to understand your assertion that the GEC Norfolk is " a direct rip-off of Case" ??? You've owned both I assume? They are entirely different interpretations, the Northwoods version is far smaller, has a long narrow Wharncliffe and slant lined NS bolsters with carbon/brass. It also comes as a 3 blade version so it is in no way comparable to the Collab knife from weight, size. appearance or materials. Well, at least GEC's Ebony looks like Ebony rather than CASE's dried up looking scales.. You might as well say that Cattle Knives coming from Queen et al. are direct copies of the CASE/Bose knife from last year. Or that the CASE/Bose Norfolk is a rip-off of Rodgers' patterns in the c19th

Excellent point Will, one I was going to make myself about the GEC Norfolk. While both the Case/Bose and GEC/Northwoods knives are Norfolks, they are entirely different knives, easily distinguished from one another even by those uninterested in slipjoints. They are two very different interpretations on the Norfolk pattern.

If the GEC does remind me of a specific knife, it is of the Winchester Congress Pen (2935), manufactured by Queen for Bluegrass Cutlery. It's a dead ringer for the GEC/Northwoods.

 

[supratentorial]

...While both the Case/Bose and GEC/Northwoods knives are Norfolks, they are entirely different knives, easily distinguished from one another even by those uninterested in slipjoints. They are two very different interpretations on the Norfolk pattern.

If the GEC does remind me of a specific knife, it is of the Winchester Congress Pen (2935), manufactured by Queen for Bluegrass Cutlery. It's a dead ringer for the GEC/Northwoods.

I agree. If it weren't for Case/Bose, then fewer people would know the name "Norfolk" and Northwoods might not have called it by that name. They may or may not have made the knife. I do think there's some influence from Case in that respect. But unlike the unauthorized reproduction of the Case/Bose Tribal Spear, the Northwoods Norfolk isn't really a copy of the Case/Bose Norfolk. It's more similar to the Queen made Winchester. There may be some influence from Queen in that respect.

Most importantly, the Northwoods Norfolk is similar to old knives (not original work).

 

[AusLoX]

I think the main difference is how GEC builds knives in the "old way" of knife making. They have such skill in doing so that it's hard for Case to accomplish the same outcome that GEC can. For example, the GEC 38 Grinling Whittler. That's not an easy knife to produce without great skill on hand. Case used to make a similar knife a while back, but I'm not sure they have the ability to produce such patterns without having major issues. They used to have that kind of talent on staff. At least not at a decent price point. I could be wrong but it just seems that way.
Here is my old case that rides on 2 springs that converge into 1 large spring for the main blade.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

That's a really cool design, I've never seen that before.

 

[22-rimfire]

Case looks to be following the market. GEC just so happens to be creating the market.

Interesting comment. GEC has done a really good job of producing a semi-high end production knife. Sometimes I feel troubled by their pricing however.

I was visiting the Rough Rider sales guy at (you know the big store in East TN) yesterday and he mentioned that Case has really been eyeing up the Rough Rider knives wondering how they can produce such a good knife for so cheap at retail. He said the Case rep bought a number of the Rough Rider knifes to take with him. I do think Case keeps an eye on GEC offerings and they could learn a few things. I know Queen keeps an eye of GEC. I wonder why? Case is a high volume knife producer and GEC caters to the person seeking a bit higher quality and willing to pay for it.

 

[supratentorial]

On a side note.... Charlie asked Tony Bose for permission to use the Wharncliffe trapper for the forum knife. He's very generous and said it was no problem but it was good to ask. Tony popularized the use of the Wharncliffe blade in trappers and other patterns. And it's become widespread.

I think it's unfortunate that Case and Tony would be accused of following GEC when clearly it was the other way around. GEC is very popular on the forum and I'm a fan as well but not everything revolves around GEC.

I was visiting the Rough Rider sales guy at (you know the big store in East TN) yesterday and he mentioned that Case has really been eyeing up the Rough Rider knives wondering how they can produce such a good knife for so cheap at retail. He said the Case rep bought a number of the Rough Rider knifes to take with him. I do think Case keeps an eye on GEC offerings and they could learn a few things.

It's a different topic but foreign competition has troubled US knifemakers for a long time. It lead to the closing of Schrade. And an article written by a cutler around 100 years ago complained about competing with imports from Germany.

 

[neal70]

Not to beat a dead horse, A.G. Russell had the curved regular jack with a zulu spear(&double pull-nice!) awhile back, pics in a thread started by Silenthunter; that was a very nice example of the original schrade too Jake . Looks much better in hand than print. Did A.G. get permission? I believe brownshoe hit the nail on the head(yes I have hammers) when he said (paraphrasing) that it seemed strangely familiar. Seems like all the cutlery companies have been doing things to copy as close as possible a competitors design for 120?+ years. And the very thought that one manufacturer would ignore what another was doing successfully,for whatever reason, is ridiculous. You don't stay in business at a profit by not knowing what you are competing against. $.02
Thanks,Neal

 

[brownshoe]

The Norfolk has been a Bose pattern since the 1990s. My choice of words may be incorrect, since it's not "exact" but the Case version was highly popular sold out quickly and then comes the GEC version.

Interesting you used the word simbiotic:In biology, symbiotic refers to any diverse organisms that live together, but in this case, the relationship is not necessarily beneficial to both. Parasites, for example, have a symbiotic relationship with their hosts, but only the parasite benefits.

I just believe GEC is sometimes the parasite in the relationship.

 

[silenthunterstudios]

Not everyone is compensated so well, if at all, at Chinese factories. I'm not saying the Rough Riders were made in a slave labor plant, and I'm not saying the craftsmen/women at Case aren't being compensated enough. We want higher quality from Case, but they don't HAVE to do that for their niche market. Ask anyone on the street what Great Eastern Cutlery is, they'll have no idea, unless they're a knife nut or live in the Titusville area. Ask anyone what Case knives are, a few might still know.

 

[22-rimfire]

I'd love for Case to start a higher end line of slip joints. Queen has Schatt & Morgan. But unfortunately with foreign manufacture competition, they would be competing directly with GEC at that point and I question how many normal people would spend $100+ for a slip joint made by Case that says "surgical steel" or something like that. From my way of thinking, they would almost have to be 440C imprinted on the blade.

The GEC parasite comment by brownshoe is interesting and I think I tend to agree. But all of the American slip joint companies feed off each other.

 

[supratentorial]

Not to beat a dead horse, A.G. Russell had the curved regular jack with a zulu spear(&double pull-nice!) awhile back, pics in a thread started by Silenthunter; that was a very nice example of the original schrade too Jake . Looks much better in hand than print. Did A.G. get permission? I believe brownshoe hit the nail on the head(yes I have hammers) when he said (paraphrasing) that it seemed strangely familiar. Seems like all the cutlery companies have been doing things to copy as close as possible a competitors design for 120?+ years. And the very thought that one manufacturer would ignore what another was doing successfully,for whatever reason, is ridiculous. You don't stay in business at a profit by not knowing what you are competing against. $.02
Thanks,Neal

Neal, I don't know the knife from A.G. Russell and don't know if he got permission. I don't think the design is trademarked but it is a dangerous path to take in a small cottage industry. And it could kill collaborations entirely.

And we're seeing the world through thick "looking glass acrylic" glasses if we push for GEC to make Case/Bose patterns and then claim that Case copied them. If the tables were turned, there would be a sudden spike in the sales of pitch forks and torches.

 

[Cory Hess]

And the very thought that one manufacturer would ignore what another was doing successfully,for whatever reason, is ridiculous. You don't stay in business at a profit by not knowing what you are competing against.

I am certain that Case knows what's going on at GEC. However, I'm not so sure that Case is competing against GEC. I see Case as competing against the foreign made knife market. GEC simply isn't big enough to be considered a competitor. That would be like saying that a local bakery is a competitor to Dunkin' Donuts and D.D. is being influenced by the bakery in my home town. Case has bigger fish to fry. I don't see the relationship as symbiotic or parasitic. I don't think it's a relationship at all. Case is going about their business, just as they were before GEC existed. The number of sales that they lose to GEC is inconsequential. It's a rounding error.

 

[supratentorial]

I am certain that Case knows what's going on at GEC. However, I'm not so sure that Case is competing against GEC. I see Case as competing against the foreign made knife market. GEC simply isn't big enough to be considered a competitor. That would be like saying that a local bakery is a competitor to Dunkin' Donuts and D.D. is being influenced by the bakery in my home town. Case has bigger fish to fry. I don't see the relationship as symbiotic or parasitic. I don't think it's a relationship at all. Case is going about their business, just as they were before GEC existed. The number of sales that they lose to GEC is inconsequential. It's a rounding error.

With the example of the GEC/Northwoods unauthorized copy of the Case/Bose Tribal Spear, the numbers were actually pretty close. Case made 1000 total. Northwoods ordered 750 copies but due to cut backs, they got less. I don't know the total off hand but if I recall correctly GEC capped SFOs at 500. If Northwoods does another run, they may actual tie or surpass the number made by Case's legitimate collaboration.

 

[Cory Hess]

For sure, on that specific pattern. I was more speaking on the companies in general. When looking at the mini-trapper with the bottle opener, I believe it's a regular Case run. I don't think that they're too concerned about GEC's run of beer scouts sniping any of their sales. GEC will make several hundred 15s this run. Case will make thousands and thousands of mini-trappers with bottle openers. Even if every beer scout sale comes at the expense of Case's mini-trapper it wouldn't be enough to register a change in Case's sales numbers on their mini-trapper.

If looking at the collaboration runs specifically, I could see Case and Tony Bose looking at what GEC or Queen is putting out and wanting to do something different, therefore being influenced by those companies. I don't think that GEC is nearly big enough to influence what Case is doing on their regular runs.

 

[neal70]

Perhaps competing is putting it to strongly, and I can certainly understand and agree with your donuts analogy (mmm,donuts). Case certainly has foreign competition that would produce/manufacture knives at a numbers level similar too their own capacity; however I don't think that it's a one-to-one, knife-to-knife quantifiable situation. When a boutique producer continually sells out large numbers of its standard production,not to mention sfos or oem type work, and is adding to their lineup regularly, and having repeat numbers of customers as well as adding new ones all the time,it becomes noteworthy. The amounts people are willing to spend on the secondary etc. market can't be ignored.
The title of the thread was "is Case being influenced by GEC". On some level, the answer has to be yes, just not in the 1-1 manner ,as indicated above. There are just too many factors to say categorically no, in addition to traditional (ha!) cutlery practices of jumping on the bandwagon, or at least putting a foot on the running board. How small an overall percentage of their production could Case use to simply test the waters on a pattern or series? I mean I don't know, but it can't be much. Relatively speaking. I'm sure there are variables I'm overlooking, but you understand what I'm saying. No offense to anyone
Thanks,Neal
Ps-I think Charlie said they do have(GEC) a minimum of a 500 piece order, thus the 350 forum knives and 150 sfos

 

[jrawk]

I think the proper way to phrase the original questions is: Is the Case product line being influenced by GEC consumer trends?

The answer to that, in my mind, is undoubtedly yes.

 

[22-rimfire]

I honestly believe that Case should be more concerned about Rough Riders and Colts than the small GEC production runs that sell out within a month of release. Those are real competition and I doubt that somebody is going to even bother buying a Case slippie if they use Rough Riders regularly as they fulfill the same purpose at a much lower cost. But distribution is critical and the Rough Riders and Colts are not widely distributed to retailers other than the one that owns the trademark.

But I certainly think that GEC and Queen are influenced by Case and vice versa. Queen perhaps more so, but Queens tend to cost a bit more than their Case counterpart. So are they competition or simply another knife in the shopping basket?

 

[traumkommode]

The way Case releases and organizes their knives for sale actually looks to me a lot like the way Queen/S&M do it. Just take a look at their product catalogs (something GEC doesn't offer). BTW, Bill Howard, who is the driving force behind GEC, used to work for Queen. It's a small community among those knife companies. They're all 3 in the same state!

I know guys who are in to knives who know very well Case's identity. And even after seeing my GEC knives, and being blown away by how well made they are, they still don't know who GEC is. I think it's easy to get "GEC-Vision" from collecting them and spending time on this forum, but by and large, most of the American population doesn't know that Great Eastern Cutlery exists. I would dare say, though, that a considerable portion of the population has at least heard of Case XX, or W.R. Case and Sons. GEC's market is basically us and some guys on YouTube, with a handful of people who probably find them in local shops.

Even if there is influence being passed from one company to another, it's not as if you can have a traditional pocket knife pattern that's that different, beyond the maker's detectable identity in the piece. Think about another industry - Rock 'n Roll - from the 80s. You can hear a sound show up in music by David Bowie, Phil Collins, King Crimson, Talking Heads, and many other bands, that wasn't there in the 70s. Any sub-culture has identifiers and an evolutionary trajectory that will at some point have a similar effect on all the members of that sub-culture, even if they don't interact directly.

I have yet to behold a Case knife that made me think "Wow, this looks/feels like a Great Eastern."