Is cpm 3v if heat treated right as tough as 5160

me2 said:
S7 is listed as tougher than 3V by Crucible by nearly 50%. S1 is tougher than S7. Based on it's similar composition to S7, A8Mod likely has toughness between 3V and S7. It has less carbon, less carbide volume, and can withstand elevated tempering while maintaining relatively high hardness. 5160 has been addressed. 6150 is tougher still, though the two are used for the same purpose at times.

Same hardness comparisons are not as simple as one might think. It may put one steel or the other into an embrittlement range. Some steels may not realisitically reach the same hardness levels.

I feel it necessary to point out that the differences in toughness of 3V at various hardnesses are not due to the hardnesses. The hardness and the toughness differences are due to changes in heat treatment temperatures. Hardness is not the end goal. It is a relatively easily measured indicator that the desired procedure was followed and worked as planned.
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It's irrelevant whether the other steels that are "tougher" can't reach the hardness 3v can or are brittle when they do. Whether they can't or won't they are only tougher than 3v under the certain conditions.

Furthermore, the shock steels excel at what they were intended to do...take impacts. As knives:

1. They aren't widely used

2. Fall WAY short of 3v in every other category a that actually makes a good knife.


My point stands, plenty of steels are tougher than 3v under certain CONDITIONS. Ran soft, or sacrificing every other attribute in order to have that toughness, or a specialty steel that can only be found by a handful of custom makers.

Jerry busse could use s1 steel for his knives, it's tougher than infi.. why doesn't he? Because it gives up every other attribute important to a knife lol.


Criminy.
 
shinyedges said:
It's irrelevant whether the other steels that are "tougher" can't reach the hardness 3v can or are brittle when they do. Whether they can't or won't they are only tougher than 3v under the certain conditions.

Furthermore, the shock steels excel at what they were intended to do...take impacts. As knives:

1. They aren't widely used

2. Fall WAY short of 3v in every other category a that actually makes a good knife.


My point stands, plenty of steels are tougher than 3v under certain CONDITIONS. Ran soft, or sacrificing every other attribute in order to have that toughness, or a specialty steel that can only be found by a handful of custom makers.

Jerry busse could use s1 steel for his knives, it's tougher than infi.. why doesn't he? Because it gives up every other attribute important to a knife lol.


Criminy.
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I agree with this.
If you want a knife for all out toughness and dont care about edge holding go for it. (A8 MOD, INFI, S7, S5, S1, CPM 1V)

Example.
I have a Gavko knives bigfoot in S7. Its absurdly tough. Likely tougher than any human will need.

Is it tougher than my 3V Kukris?
Very likely, but my 3V kukri will hold an edge longer and has a thinner edge (BTE).

In my experience I like 3V better for a chopper. I've never needed to beat through a chunk of metal or pry off a car door. I think toughness is something relative to the user. Of course the metallurgy is there too. Hope this makes sense.

I have used Z-Tuff for a couple choppers. Strange stuff. But it's the toughest steel I've used (impact wise) very easy to grind though. Definitely tougher than 3V. But realistically I dont see much of a need to get into steel that tough. But to each their own.

shinyedges shinyedges this isnt directed at you. Just a general statement.
 
ShannonSteelLabs ShannonSteelLabs I agree and get it. Is there tougher steels out there than 3v? Yes. Do they sacrifice in most every other attribute? Yes.

I'd love to see these tougher steels ran at 60hrc if they can get that hard. At 60hrc 3v has excellent strength, toughness, corrosion resistance AND edge holding.

Does those other steels listed have the same qualities at 60hrc? Lol it's a rhetorical question.
 
S1 is tougher at 60 to 61 HRc than S7 at 57 to 58. Those steels are tougher at their working hardness, typically at 56 to 60. S1 would have been great for Busse, but is not an air hardening steel, which is mostly what Busse prefers.
 
me2 said:
S1 is tougher at 60 to 61 HRc than S7 at 57 to 58. Those steels are tougher at their working hardness, typically at 56 to 60. S1 would have been great for Busse, but is not an air hardening steel, which is mostly what Busse prefers.
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So that's why Jerry busse doesn't use s1 ? Because it's not an air hardening steel?

Or because it trades off other attributes for increased toughness? I don't believe he looked over s1 because it's not an air hardening steel.
 
Some people crack me up. I'd love to know where Jerry busse said this...

Something tells me you just made that up aka lying.



me2 said:
S1 is tougher at 60 to 61 HRc than S7 at 57 to 58. Those steels are tougher at their working hardness, typically at 56 to 60. S1 would have been great for Busse, but is not an air hardening steel, which is mostly what Busse prefers.
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me2 said:
S1 is tougher at 60 to 61 HRc than S7 at 57 to 58. Those steels are tougher at their working hardness, typically at 56 to 60. S1 would have been great for Busse, but is not an air hardening steel, which is mostly what Busse prefers.
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Exactly what I thought, me2, thank you very much. I tend to not mention numbers, because I don’t care about them. I have knives from 49hrc to 68hrc and all perform well. But if I have to choose one to a survival type situation, I would NEVER pick a pm steel blade.
 
Jerry never said that, and I'm sure there are at least a dozen reasons he chose Infi over every other steel. However, Busse and associated brands certainly prefer to use air hardenable steels. A2, D2, Infi (similar to A8 Mod), and their version of S7 are all air hardenable.
 
me2 said:
Jerry never said that, and I'm sure there are at least a dozen reasons he chose Infi over every other steel. However, Busse and associated brands certainly prefer to use air hardenable steels. A2, D2, Infi (similar to A8 Mod), and their version of S7 are all air hardenable.
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I know he never said that. It's not a coincidence the steels he uses are pretty well rounded. He said on many occasions that what he wants in his knives isn't the best performance in any one area. It's the ability to do well in all areas. Which was my point. Those Uber tough steels sacrifice in other areas.
 
hugofeynman said:
Exactly what I thought, me2, thank you very much. I tend to not mention numbers, because I don’t care about them. I have knives from 49hrc to 68hrc and all perform well. But if I have to choose one to a survival type situation, I would NEVER pick a pm steel blade.
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Would you prefer 420J2?

I would love a PM blade steel in s survival situation. CPM 3V is plenty tough for me and should have enough edge holding to get me out of said jam.
PM steels have earned their place. 85-90% of knives I make are made with that process
 
hugofeynman said:
Exactly what I thought, me2, thank you very much. I tend to not mention numbers, because I don’t care about them. I have knives from 49hrc to 68hrc and all perform well. But if I have to choose one to a survival type situation, I would NEVER pick a pm steel blade.
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Why not? Are they prone to break in half in cold weather?
 
hugofeynman said:
Exactly what I thought, me2, thank you very much. I tend to not mention numbers, because I don’t care about them. I have knives from 49hrc to 68hrc and all perform well. But if I have to choose one to a survival type situation, I would NEVER pick a pm steel blade.
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LOL here we go. Another cpm steel naysayer. Gaston444 said those same things, this will be interesting.
 
So are A8 Mod and S7 well rounded or do they sacrifice properties for toughness?

CPM steels as a group tend to be on the less tough side of things. That is not due to the CPM process, but due to that process being applied to steels which would be too brittle to use if not made using some sort of powder process. I generally prefer medium carbon steels for rough use blades, so that rules out most of the powder steels, with 3V being on the upper limit at 0.8 percent carbon.
 
me2 said:
So are A8 Mod and S7 well rounded or do they sacrifice properties for toughness?

CPM steels as a group tend to be on the less tough side of things. That is not due to the CPM process, but due to that process being applied to steels which would be too brittle to use if not made using some sort of powder process. I generally prefer medium carbon steels for rough use blades, so that rules out most of the powder steels, with 3V being on the upper limit at 0.8 percent carbon.
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I'm not super familiar with A8Mod.
If I'm not mistaken crucible did make a CPM grade s7. Not sure on edge stability for S7. Only have one knife with it. And dont use it much.
A8 mod likely gives up some edge holding.

CPM 1V an Z-Tuff are as tough as S7 but have A2 edge holding and wear resistance. (From what the charts have said)
In my experience Ztuff will not chip. Shit is tough!!!
 
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I do have knives in pm steels, being my favorite Vanadis 4 extra at high hardness. Perfect for a small/medium knife. In my choppers, I prefer A8mod, Infi, S1, 5160, 6150, K600 and Ultrafort. I’m not a “do it all” one knife guy.
 
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