Is cpm 3v if heat treated right as tough as 5160

[Bigfattyt]

You're a good sport.

Well, the old INFI, original straight handled Steel Heart, and Battlemistress were not mine. I was able to use them for a week, and chop, sharpen, etc......

But it did not feel right licking another man's knives.......

 

[shinyedges]

Some Aermet 100? Premomet? Ferrium M54? NC310? Do you have access to that stuff in plate? I’m obsessed with toughness and according to Landes this are the toughest steels available.

We mostly use 46100 and 12560 armor, goes on tanks and strykers. Bullet and blast resistance is an understatement.

So what steel is infi if not a8mod ?

I don't know, I don't name steels, I just look at the percentages and see a larger variance between A8 mod and Infi than other WAY more closely related steels that are given their own identity.

Don't forget CPM154, Elmax, 52100 (they call it modified, and designate it as SR101, and their call S7 SR77 and say it is modified for their uses).
They seem to get extreme performance from a toughness standpoint on everything they use.



I've not seen tests results on A8Mod, but the S7 seems to test as very very tough, but loses points on edge retention and corrosion resistance. It also seems to be less stable at thin/acute edges than some other steels (if memory serves correct).



I've hit concrete, brick, and stone with edges. The INFI vs small riverstone (embedded in the bottom of the log I was splitting). INFI ended up handling it like a champ, and I was able to restore the edge to shaving with a round, chromed screwdriver! I split the stone in half, about a dime sized stone. I heard and felt it.

The edge on the Large chopper (FBMLE) was thinned out a good bit thinner than factory.



I've used the old INFI, and the new. They feel different, but that is tough to explain. I've sharpened both, and chopped with both.

I've seen destruction testing with both (they may be onto than two versions, because I've seen original recipe, extra crispy, and modified or M-INFI). The steel does amazing at destruction testing. Just stupendous. But it is not high on edge retention from abrasion resistsnce.
I saw a composition test with supposedly new INFI with no Nitrogen showing in the test, but I don't know at what levels the test would not show nitrogen. It is supposedly less likely to show up in the type of tests used, due to lower atomic weight (but that may be garbage).

http://www.zknives.com/knives/steels/steelgraph.php?nm=infi

I can say I've used Modern Infi, old INFI (some of the earliest). I've also used it at higher hardness than standard. I've been impressed with it in use for choppers, and "hard use". I've damaged it a few times and had surprises at the ease of fixing it (and the low level of damage) usually having to remove way less metal to fix than I'm expecting. I've not had any chipping. Only a dent, a nd minor rolling that were fixable, and steeled out (and seemed just as stable as before the damage).

Great corrosion resistance in the satin finish, and in my stripped models.

I've also used Busse and Swamp Rats in SR101 (Busse/Swamprat "modified" 52100) and have been very impressed!!! (Outside the weakest point of 52100 which is its penchant for rust/discoloration) I may like it more than Busse's INFI.

I like the higher hardness INFI more than softer run regular infi (
60-62 range vs 58-60 rc). There are some early high hardness Battle Misteresses that had 62 or 63?? Rc.

I've sold off all my INFI, and now have only one Busse, in SR101 (not because I did not love them, but I wanted other toys, including customs in 3V, etc.
I'm no expert.

I agree with all this, I picked up my first busse shortly after I joined here. I've used them hard, bent 2 of them, processed hogs, cows, camped all kinds of things. I agree with your assessment on it's edge retention, coincidentally I don't have any infi left either. I kept my 1311 in sr101- 52100 though.

I chopped the legs off a frozen deer with my 1311, held up like a champ. Almost zero damage. Deer legs are dense bone too.

My main beef was people ignoring the element %'s that tell a different story then "they are identical". Clearly other steels are almost identical but given individual names because they perform different.

So terms like "same" and "identical" when the elements are pretty darn different are hog wash. I don't care who says otherwise. Similar, yes, identical or the same? Nope.

 

[Wowbagger]

Finer grain structure than a particle steel? Citation please.

I ran across this in another forum.
They don't like to link to other forums here so I would say search for Cliff Stamp's knife / edge website and go from there. I was in yet another web site when I found the quote below but he has pulled out of a lot of forums and YouTube and is now just focusing on his site.

Anyway I think this is what is in some people's minds when they say plain high carbon can have smaller carbides "Finer Grain" than particle steel.
Good luck

I recall you saying Tungsten and Chromium carbides form quite big compared to carbon and vanadium.
Carbides are carbon+X, iron carbide (cementite) is very small as on the order of 0.1 micron. Vanadium, Niobium and Tungsten form in general very small carbides, on the order of 1 micron. Chromium in general will rapidly form huge aggregates when it is present in large quantities.

 

[Wowbagger]

I just got my first knife in 5160, a Buck 102. It has a nice brass guard and brass pommel with black handle and a nice little surprise . . . thin layers of red ?micarta? between. Sweet !

I used the factory edge today and it was so so. I trimmed hard rubber, carved chips off a wax block to melt the wax and cut up an apple and a cinnamon roll (huge multi serving cinnamon roll).

It did well on the rubber and the cinnamon roll but sucked for the wax and the apple.

I sharpened it on the Edge Pro tonight. I kept the stock factory geometry. I did a progression of Shapton Glass stones from 220, 500, 1K and 4K.
The bur was quite tenacious at the last. With more coarse stones it came off pretty easy but the 4K it held on. I asked myself WTF? then reminded myself that I was dealing with spring steel . . . maybe the bur is pretty spring like. I finally got every little bit of it off with some finessing of the 4K.

End result besides the mandatory / standard issue hair whittling ? . . . I am quite pleased and surprised to say I was able to trim full length curls off the ends of my finger nails several times. Usually I have to go to a more acute sharpening bevel and thin the behind the edge thickness to get this kind of cutting performance.

Stock geometry, trims curls off my finger nails = Happy Dog ! ! !
PS: the sheath was much better than I expected. Still has that funny machine stitching but DANG ! It's pretty nice over all ! ! !

 

[calaska]

so the question, as I would understand it, would be what is the toughest sword steel, implying it still has to function as a sword, i.e. have some decent edge retention and stay straight when under heavy use etc. Etc.

I've been curious what the modern day valyrean (spelling?) Would be. Having been more involved in the high end knife community I was surprised how much 3v seemed to be poopoo'd as that seems to be top notch balanced crazy tough knife steel, in fact most of the forums & charts I see of the most popular knife steels say it is the toughest after infi & maybe ztuff, but almost all of them put it tougher than 5160. So now I'm really wondering?

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

so the question, as I would understand it, would be what is the toughest sword steel, implying it still has to function as a sword, i.e. have some decent edge retention and stay straight when under heavy use etc. Etc.

I've been curious what the modern day valyrean (spelling?) Would be. Having been more involved in the high end knife community I was surprised how much 3v seemed to be poopoo'd as that seems to be top notch balanced crazy tough knife steel, in fact most of the forums & charts I see of the most popular knife steels say it is the toughest after infi & maybe ztuff, but almost all of them put it tougher than 5160. So now I'm really wondering?

In my testing and even customer testing, I have found 3V spectacular in toughness. It also posesses good edge holding and corrosion resistance.
You can run different heat treat for different effects. 59-60HRC for near maximum toughness. 58HRC for max toughness. 61HRC low temper for increased edge stability and increased corrosion resistance, which is also EXTREMELY tough. The 61HRC LT is slightly less tough than the maximum toughness HT, but it's still sturdy as hell.


I had a client commission a katana In CPM 3V. It was not traditional, but it performed excellent. He put it through its paces and send a fantastic review on the durability.
I have also made several machetes in 3V that have held up perfectly. Using 59/60HRC for maximum toughness. 1 or 2 had the modified HT. My favorite machete steel.

If you want all out Toughness I would recommend Z-Tuff. You can run 59 HRC. Or you can do a low temper 61HRC. Which has much better edge stability. After some testing from myself and clients I will be running the 61HRC low temper for any future knives in Z-Tuff.